Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

drakerocket wrote:

From a CSM perspective and a daemons perspective, Lords might be a bit much. However, if your chief drive is being a renegades and heretics player, them and mauraders are really all you have going for you to not just be a deeply inferior version of AM. If they are nerfed, particularly in a significant way, one of the only decent things about that army goes away. If you raise the cost to 50 points, you're not very far off (16) a herald of slaanesh at that point: a unit which can actually fight, has a potentially usable psychic power that isn't smite and an important area buff, all of which are easily worth 16 points. But no one is exactly scrambling to tack on heralds of slaanesh to their army in droves. A substantial points increase would invalidate one of the only valuable elements of R&H.

I like how you show another persepctive.
Very constructive and indeed very true!

Sokhar wrote:
They're really not a problem, just for some reason people that don't know better LOVE to gripe about them. Conscripts are still significantly better, for only one point more. Malefic Lords should cost more than they currently do, they're kind of in the same boat as Guilliman and Celestine in their ubiquity.

At worst, the only additional tweak I could see being made to Brimstones would be knocking them down to Toughness 2.

T2 would be a pain as the rules aren't written with multi-toughness units in mind.


Since the point changes I've actually started running blue horrors. Most opponents I've played stop shooting at them once they see that they can split as they don't feel like they are making any progress and have more pressing things to shoot. I typically bring 2 units as cheap objective holders. I've also found 30 Plague Bearers is a good screen for most of my characters (not as good as a wall of brims though, but less distaste from my opponents)

I've been wondering, how have people found Be'lakor? He looks good for destroying light tanks / characters, plus being unaligned means he can summon basically any unit to the table (I'm thinking 30 bloodletters 9" away can be quite nasty)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well Reece is of a different opinion and 9 times out of 10 what he says - goes, sooner or later. So RIP Brimstones.

Reece doesn't know what he is talking about. He also said Ork Stompas, Kanz and the Ork Index in its entirety would be competitive. Turns out we have 1 build and the units he thought would be OP amazing are utter trash.

JakeSiren wrote:
T2 would be a pain as the rules aren't written with multi-toughness units in mind.


Since the point changes I've actually started running blue horrors. Most opponents I've played stop shooting at them once they see that they can split as they don't feel like they are making any progress and have more pressing things to shoot. I typically bring 2 units as cheap objective holders. I've also found 30 Plague Bearers is a good screen for most of my characters (not as good as a wall of brims though, but less distaste from my opponents)

I've been wondering, how have people found Be'lakor? He looks good for destroying light tanks / characters, plus being unaligned means he can summon basically any unit to the table (I'm thinking 30 bloodletters 9" away can be quite nasty)

Good point about the mixed toughness values. That alone might be the reason that Brimstones got T3 in the first place.

Curious about your Blue Horrors. Do you just not have Brimstones to use/don't want to use them? Don't see what upside Blues offer to justify their higher point cost. Spliting isn't much of an advantage unless you're short of FoC slots, as you could just include those Brimstone models in your army anyway. Spliting is actually a disadvantage because it makes the unit more susceptible to morale losses. On top of that, the only real advantage Blues enjoy on a per-point basis over Brims is that they don't die when they cast Smite--the Smite is equal in efficacy, and while Blues do enjoy one higher strength, it frequently makes little difference, and the Brimstones win out through the combination of their lower point cost and extra attack.

I like Be'lakor a lot. I haven't really utilized his unrestricted summoning abilities yet, but it's a great tool to have in your back pocket if you ever need it. He costs more than a standard Daemon Prince, but brings a lot of useful benefits for the cost. An extra psychic power per turn isn't nothing, and him having access to Dark Hereticus (particularly Death Hex) in combination with his awesome sword is a great combo. He even gets the same number of attacks as a double-talon Prince, while bringing a substantially heftier AP and Damage value with his sword. And re-rolling ALL failed saves, actually boosts his survivability above regular Daemon Princes of Chaos in most situations. Plus you get a leadership debuff as well, if it's ever applicable.

Since I love Daemon Princes and tend to make them a central part of my army theme, I never leave home without him!

IMO the only useful Horror unit is 9x brim/1x blue or 19x brim/1x blue, depending on how many points you play in matched play.

I dont have the models that i actually want for my list, so i play with Horrors Brim, Blue, Pink.
Brims are good for shielding and their costs.
Blues are not bad and also not good. Theyre kind of a lost thing.
Pink are absolute garbage. I played around 40 matches, since i started 40K with my Daemons back in mid June and i HAD to use them every time, because
i didnt have the models i actually wanted in my list.
Theyre good for nothing, now with smite nerf even more useless. They are really the most useless type of Horror or even Daemon unit in the game.
I dont use the split mechanic at all.


On the other Hand i also used Belakor in almost every match up.
He is the most sustainable Daemon in my collection (a small collection ).
He is a tool box, thanx to Dark Hereticus. 14" move is fast,re-roll 1s, re-roll failed save(s) and 6 attacks is very good.
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

The Save is a thing though. I know that mathammer wise a double rolled safe for 5 is higher chance, but i feel for me it isnt working.
Belakor dies easy, so play him carefully. Use him at the right time, cause if he charges and wounds, he will definitly kill something.
Hes not a glass cannon with T6, but he might die quicker than you think.

He combos well with Oblits!
I would not use him for summoning, since he could get wounded cause of summoning and perils too.
He is too precious to waste him like that.

I find it funny that some folks like Reese think Brims are a problem but Girlieman is fine.

It certainly wasn't Brimstones that dominated Nova.

 DortmundOutpost wrote:
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

Talons just says whenever the model attacks, make an extra attack at that profile. So you don't have to allocate one swing to his talons to generate another, and five attacks to his sword--you can just do 6 sword attacks and get 1 free talon attack. With the higher damage and awesome AP, it's an important distinction to note.

Sokhar wrote:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

Talons just says whenever the model attacks, make an extra attack at that profile. So you don't have to allocate one swing to his talons to generate another, and five attacks to his sword--you can just do 6 sword attacks and get 1 free talon attack. With the higher damage and awesome AP, it's an important distinction to note.

Oh, yes. You are right. I got it worng then. Thank you for the advice!
Its really a big difference.

Boski51 wrote:
I find it funny that some folks like Reese think Brims are a problem but Girlieman is fine.

We're already stiring up some drama here. Why not join in?
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/09/03/nova-open-update-2/#comments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

Sokhar wrote:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

Talons just says whenever the model attacks, make an extra attack at that profile. So you don't have to allocate one swing to his talons to generate another, and five attacks to his sword--you can just do 6 sword attacks and get 1 free talon attack. With the higher damage and awesome AP, it's an important distinction to note.

Oh, yes. You are right. I got it worng then. Thank you for the advice!
Its really a big difference.

Just to be sure: you know he can't cast most of his stuff on himself?

The only thing he's really missing out on is that he can't cast Warp Time on himself; Prescience is irrelevant to him. When I run Be'lakor I like to have Smite, Infernal Gaze, and Death Hex as his spread of powers. Hex + his sword makes anything die, and if you don't need to strip an invul save then he gets to spread some mortal wounds around before he gets into close combat.

Sokhar wrote:
The only thing he's really missing out on is that he can't cast Warp Time on himself; Prescience is irrelevant to him. When I run Be'lakor I like to have Smite, Infernal Gaze, and Death Hex as his spread of powers. Hex + his sword makes anything die, and if you don't need to strip an invul save then he gets to spread some mortal wounds around before he gets into close combat.

I'm scarred from him perilsing 2x(re-rolled one) in a row and dying to a damn Tyranid Broodlord in 1 turn :/

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Boski51 wrote:
I find it funny that some folks like Reese think Brims are a problem but Girlieman is fine.

We're already stiring up some drama here. Why not join in?
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/09/03/nova-open-update-2/#comments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

Sokhar wrote:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

Talons just says whenever the model attacks, make an extra attack at that profile. So you don't have to allocate one swing to his talons to generate another, and five attacks to his sword--you can just do 6 sword attacks and get 1 free talon attack. With the higher damage and awesome AP, it's an important distinction to note.

Oh, yes. You are right. I got it worng then. Thank you for the advice!
Its really a big difference.

Just to be sure: you know he can't cast most of his stuff on himself?

Yeah, yeah...he is not heretic astartes, i know.
He only has the psychic powers.

The only reason not using Belakor is Finecast

Never really see anyone mentioning Furies - are they so bad? They seem like a pretty cheap way to get in the face of a shooty opponent? Are they just too weak to be worth the trouble? I think they look cool and would love to incorporate them, but I'd rather not do suboptimal plays.

 knas wrote:
Never really see anyone mentioning Furies - are they so bad? They seem like a pretty cheap [i][u]way to get in the face of a shooty opponent? Are they just too weak to be worth the trouble? I think they look cool and would love to incorporate them, but I'd rather not do suboptimal plays.

what

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 knas wrote:
Never really see anyone mentioning Furies - are they so bad? They seem like a pretty cheap [i][u]way to get in the face of a shooty opponent? Are they just too weak to be worth the trouble? I think they look cool and would love to incorporate them, but I'd rather not do suboptimal plays.

what

I'm asking a question, no need to be rude about it - if you don't want to answer it just keep browsing.

 knas wrote:
Never really see anyone mentioning Furies - are they so bad? They seem like a pretty cheap way to get in the face of a shooty opponent? Are they just too weak to be worth the trouble? I think they look cool and would love to incorporate them, but I'd rather not do suboptimal plays.

I dont know.
They are "cheap" (not really), can fly and have S4.
They seem useful, but they are useless IMO. Just like Pink Horrors .

U better play some Seekers, because they are really fast 14", can advance and charge same turn with instrument and always hit first in CC.
4x attacks per model (2x Seeker, 2x Mount), AP-1 on a wound roll of 6 its AP-4. Mount has S4 no Ap. DMG on both is 1.

They have S3 and cannot fly, but W2 a piece.
19pt. per model and get into CC very fast.
So, i would not suggest to summon them cause you will actually make them slower, depending on deployment a bit.

Much, much better than Furies IMO.

Yeah I can see it. It's a shame, was hoping to bring some into a mono tzeentch army.

 knas wrote:
Yeah I can see it. It's a shame, was hoping to bring some into a mono tzeentch army.

Im a new player, but achieved a basic experience now.
Maybe im wrong, but to me it feels like mono-god lists are weaker than for example a summoning or daemon/csm or just multi-god list.

I was pretty disappointed in the beginning, but now i think multi-god is the better choice.
I will someday try a mono-god list anyway.

Tzeentch Furies are not bad
especially if you have flying chars to protect and a herald next to them

Sokhar wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
T2 would be a pain as the rules aren't written with multi-toughness units in mind.


Since the point changes I've actually started running blue horrors. Most opponents I've played stop shooting at them once they see that they can split as they don't feel like they are making any progress and have more pressing things to shoot. I typically bring 2 units as cheap objective holders. I've also found 30 Plague Bearers is a good screen for most of my characters (not as good as a wall of brims though, but less distaste from my opponents)

I've been wondering, how have people found Be'lakor? He looks good for destroying light tanks / characters, plus being unaligned means he can summon basically any unit to the table (I'm thinking 30 bloodletters 9" away can be quite nasty)

Good point about the mixed toughness values. That alone might be the reason that Brimstones got T3 in the first place.

Curious about your Blue Horrors. Do you just not have Brimstones to use/don't want to use them? Don't see what upside Blues offer to justify their higher point cost. Spliting isn't much of an advantage unless you're short of FoC slots, as you could just include those Brimstone models in your army anyway. Spliting is actually a disadvantage because it makes the unit more susceptible to morale losses. On top of that, the only real advantage Blues enjoy on a per-point basis over Brims is that they don't die when they cast Smite--the Smite is equal in efficacy, and while Blues do enjoy one higher strength, it frequently makes little difference, and the Brimstones win out through the combination of their lower point cost and extra attack.

I like Be'lakor a lot. I haven't really utilized his unrestricted summoning abilities yet, but it's a great tool to have in your back pocket if you ever need it. He costs more than a standard Daemon Prince, but brings a lot of useful benefits for the cost. An extra psychic power per turn isn't nothing, and him having access to Dark Hereticus (particularly Death Hex) in combination with his awesome sword is a great combo. He even gets the same number of attacks as a double-talon Prince, while bringing a substantially heftier AP and Damage value with his sword. And re-rolling ALL failed saves, actually boosts his survivability above regular Daemon Princes of Chaos in most situations. Plus you get a leadership debuff as well, if it's ever applicable.

Since I love Daemon Princes and tend to make them a central part of my army theme, I never leave home without him!

I have plenty of Brims (80 in total), but I find the psychological factor significant. If the opponent doesn't see progress when shooting them they stop. This means that when they want to remove the blues from an objective late game that it is too late. Because of this I have never found moral to be a problem. I even played a game where I moved them up the board onto a central objective where by the opponent ignored them for the remainder of the game due to the perception of wasted shooting / assault, but YMMV.

Overall though I agree that multiple Brim units are better at screening.

 DortmundOutpost wrote:
IMO the only useful Horror unit is 9x brim/1x blue or 19x brim/1x blue, depending on how many points you play in matched play.

I dont have the models that i actually want for my list, so i play with Horrors Brim, Blue, Pink.
Brims are good for shielding and their costs.
Blues are not bad and also not good. Theyre kind of a lost thing.
Pink are absolute garbage. I played around 40 matches, since i started 40K with my Daemons back in mid June and i HAD to use them every time, because
i didnt have the models i actually wanted in my list.
Theyre good for nothing, now with smite nerf even more useless. They are really the most useless type of Horror or even Daemon unit in the game.
I dont use the split mechanic at all.


On the other Hand i also used Belakor in almost every match up.
He is the most sustainable Daemon in my collection (a small collection ).
He is a tool box, thanx to Dark Hereticus. 14" move is fast,re-roll 1s, re-roll failed save(s) and 6 attacks is very good.
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

The Save is a thing though. I know that mathammer wise a double rolled safe for 5 is higher chance, but i feel for me it isnt working.
Belakor dies easy, so play him carefully. Use him at the right time, cause if he charges and wounds, he will definitly kill something.
Hes not a glass cannon with T6, but he might die quicker than you think.

He combos well with Oblits!
I would not use him for summoning, since he could get wounded cause of summoning and perils too.
He is too precious to waste him like that.

I agree, Pinks are useless in matched. Everything they can do is better served by multiple units of brims or other daemons.


It's good to see that both of you are getting good mileage out of Be'lakor. I'm keen to see how he plays out for me.

 knas wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 knas wrote:
Never really see anyone mentioning Furies - are they so bad? They seem like a pretty cheap way to get in the face of a shooty opponent? Are they just too weak to be worth the trouble? I think they look cool and would love to incorporate them, but I'd rather not do suboptimal plays.

what

I'm asking a question, no need to be rude about it - if you don't want to answer it just keep browsing.

It is because in dakka Bold is awful. I changed it to underlined.
Basically - it is nowhere near the word "cheap", it is REALLY REALLY expensive.
12 points per model? That's insane
I wonder what would win, 5 furries or 20 conscripts. (spoilers: half of the furries would probably die on overwatch alone)

Yesterday i saw a batrep where a guy used 3x rouge psyker coven.
pretty cool, never looked at this unit before.
i will definitly try it.

Rogue Psyker Covens would be better if they had the character rule. As it stands, they can instantly be shot at. It's a bit of a shame.

That being said, FLG is now seeming to indicate "Smite is being looked at" by GW. I hate that I even have to say it, but it seems it's entirely possible that Tzeentch as a Caster army may be through if that's the case, at least until we see a codex. For now, I'm doing a hard swap to Alpha Legion primary until then.

Hoping this means providing us with an alternative and not just nerfing it. Tzeentch power list such a pile of garbage :(

Tzeentch powers are, hilariously, worse than almost any other powers.

That's pretty much the historical norm though at this point, unfortunately.

Smite Nerf incoming?
need to paint more flamers....

Pretty much confirmed that Maelific Lords are getting a points bump.
Boooo