Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My brother is a BA player, and is certain that Death Company suck now, and hates that BA TM don't get any BA specific special rules.

Do you think BA will be good in 8th? Do you think DC are good in 8th? Is my brother actually Alpharius?

Yes, probably. No one knows for sure but things seem to be fairly even at least for now.

I watched a BA v UM game today, didn't go so hot for the Blood Angels. That's not a catch all though IMO. It was both their first game, and it's going to take a while for folks to start figuring out the right lists, and the right tactical moves to make with all the new rules (I learned just how indispensable Rhinos can be today, in a way never possible before...).

I honestly don't think there is any army that is "not-viable" at this point.

Viable as in able to play without auto losing? Yes, of course. Able to make a top table at a grand tournament; probably not.

It's always important to remember that people on this site will usually refer to things as good or bad measured at the top tournament level which for the average gamer isn't going to mean much.

I played against blood angels with my orks using the new rules, and another game vs space wolves and saw them experiencing similar problems.

Assault marines may not be your best choice for troops, and spending too many points on elite melee units is really easy.

They may need to take ranged weapons over close combat for fighting orks. Especially large squads of 30. Orks in large numbers are a real hard fight for marines in close combat now. To beat them you have to overwhelm them one unit at a time and that turns into a battle of attrition the orks may now win far easier than before. Because as soon as you wipe out that one squad you are then in charge range of pretty much the entire army.

How that ends up effecting other match ups though I am not sure. I would think marines with guns would always be a good bet against most armies.

The furioso dread seemed really good. I would always take the frag cannon if I played blood angels, and maybe take a couple of these.

I did make a battle report about my match if you want to take a look, no pics, but may provide some feedback for you to consider.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728346.page

I beat them when I fought them, but it was more a comp issue than a power issue. With Normal Marine shooting, enhanced CC options and some awesome special units (like the Baal predator) I think they will be ok.

Yeah, I really feel a lot of prior habits need to be unlearned. DC look like they can still do a fine job. But 40k if a lot less point and click, units need to be used together to get the most out of them. I hear Vanguard Vets can take two chainswords. That is a Lot of choppy!

From looking at the indexes, I think that if you keep them cheap like another person said, they should be more than okay if you run them like normal Marines, with a few slight benefits and a few cool unique units.

Played a test game earlier tonight vs. Orks with my Blood Angels.

I had a good time with it, though we only got to turn two before the shop had to close down. Still, considering I was running a very non-optimal force (What I had on-hand), it was still a fun match up. We played using power points vs. the full point system in an effort to try and get started before the shop shut down, managed about 45 minutes of play time.

My list was as follows:

-Lemartes
-5x Death Company (3x with chain swords and bolt pistols, 1x powerfist & bolter, 1x power sword and bolt pistol) with Jump Packs
-Librarian Dreadnought w/ Heavy Flamer
-5 man Tactical Squad in a rhino w/ Heavy Flamer, Combi-Flamer & Lighting Claw on the Sgt
-5 man Scout Squad w/ Meltabombs on the Sgt. and combat knives/chain swords and bolt pistols on all five models plus Camo Cloaks.
-Company Champion with Master Crafted Power Sword, Jump Pack, Combat Shield and Bolt Pistol.
Total Power Points; 47

His List:

-Warboss w/ attack squig, power klaw & shoota
-Warboss w/ attack squig, power klaw & shoota
-Big Mek w/ unknown weapons (forgot to ask)
-10 man Ork Boyz Mob w/ shootas, big shootas and rokkit launchas, Nob w/ power klaw & shoota
-10 man Ork Boyz Mob w/ shootas ,big shootas and rokkit launchas, Nob w/ power klaw & shoota
-10 man Ork Boyz Mob w/ shootas, big shootas and rokkit launchas, Nob w/ power klaw & shoota
(I think it was one and one of each special weapon, may have been two big shootas and a rokkit launcher each, didn't ask.)
-Trukk with big shootas carrying one squad of boyz and a warboss
-Trukk with big shootas carrying one squad of boyz and a warboss
-Battlewagon w/ big shootas and a turret a killkannon (?) carrying one squad of boyz and the big mek

Power Points ~50 (I forgot to ask him for an exact power point breakdown. It seemed a lot more than mine in hind sight but I didn't think anything of it during play. First time playing this opponent so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, and his list may well have been the correct 50 Power Point limit we agreed upon. I know Orks are fairly cheap compared to marines.)

Game went well, though I killed a trukk and did good damage, I wound up swarmed, losing my Death Company at the end of turn two as the game was called. It also didn't help that my librarian dreadnought suffered an early owwie to perils of the warp on my first psychic check of the game (lost a chunk of wounds there). I even used a command point to re-roll one of the D6 and still re-rolled a second 6.
I then failed to manifest the Shield of Sanguinius on the second psychic roll (rolled a 5, needed a 6 to manifest) so he had no invulnerable save either. He charged in and did good damage, all but killing the lead trukk on his own, but then got dragged down by power klaws after the trukk got wrecked. This netted me first blood thankfully.

I deep struck my Company Champ and infiltrated/jumped out of hiding with the scouts just outside of 9" of the second trukk (off tot the side and away from the first trukk mentioned above and battlewagon right behind it) and promptly failed the charge on both squads to get in and do some damage to it. I was flubbing a lot of critical rolls most of the game.

Still, when we called the game, I had at least first blood, and Lemartes (warlord) was still kicking. He managed to do some damage to the scouts and knocked them out of the fight, but I was still engaged and fighting hard with what I had left when we had to pack up due to the store closing.

Learned a lot, and saw some of the good and interesting points 8th is bringing to the table. It'll be an adjustment, but I'm excited to learn more and get more games in this weekend coming up once 8th hits. My store is doing a launch party and officially starting to sell 8th books at midnight on Friday night. I'm optimistic we'll get some good games in that evening and can really put the game through it's paces and see what's good, what isn't good, and what we like/don't like.

I say all that to say this: Don't count out Blood Angels. I think that they're a good list and should be able to compete, especially if you learn the list (and I will be going over it with a fine-toothed comb later) to look for synergies and ways to make the list hit harder and do more. It's a brave new world, after all.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

It seems to be early days for Blood Angels. My hunch is that they will play well as Marines with a CC twist rather than the full-on assault armies of 7th edition. I have had a good read through of the new list although I haven't tried them out yet but here are some of my initial impressions.

* Bubble abilities from our leaders seem more important now. If you want BAs to play the way you imagine them, invest more in characters (not a problem since the new Detachments allow plenty more options for HQ slots).

* Dante is OK but seems overpriced. Mephiston and Astorath are proper beat sticks. Lemartes also looks fun for his charge rerolls.

* DC are a bit less powerful but still good. Don't overspend on toys for them. Jump Packs look better value than transports.

* DC and Furioso Dreads seem poor compared to vanilla versions as they are less durable than Vens or Ironclads but are quite pricey. The loss of Drop Pods hurts. The faster movement is useful but I am not sure it is enough.

* Libby Dreads are characters are so can hide as they have < 10 wounds. I think they are a great psychic support unit.

* Termies benefit from the extra wound but no more so than a anyone elses.

* Sanguinary Guard are expensive. I cannot figure out why the Angelus boltgun costs so much. It is now cheaper to give them plasma pistols and they can fire them even while in close combat. Have them accompany a Captain so you can reroll 1s to hit and you can fairly safely overcharge them too.

* Storm Ravens rock! So much firepower! It can now move supersonic, benefit from a -1 to hit against enemy shooting, fire all it weapons 360-degrees and the guys inside can still disembark without it having to switch to hover mode! This is how you get your Dreads into combat. If you haven't already got some, buy now!

* Meltacide squads are harder now as you must land 9" away which puts you outside bonus range for melta guns and out of range at all for Inferno pistols. Combi-melta is probably now the way to go on the seargents and you will need to use Company Veterans to pull off this wargear combo. Given the increased price of pods, I think there are probably better ways of busting tanks now.

* We can run vanilla toys in our Detachments so Centurions, Stalkers etc are usable now although they don't benefit from our HQ bubble abilities. Also Grav has been toned down so less incentive to do so.

* Baal predator seems overpriced. Save yourself 42 points and get a TLAC Razorback which has a transport capacity of 6, does not use up an HS slot and only has 1 wound less.

Dante is not overpriced when you realize he allows the rerolling of ALL to hit rolls. And he murders other characters in CC.

I still think the Baal predator is paying for its role on the battlefield. A TLAC razorback is much more likely to be "turned off" by being assaulted.

Also, company vets with jump packs can deliver melta just fine.

Plus the Baal predator can take have flamer sponssons which are just beastly in 8th.

pinecone77 wrote:
Yeah, I really feel a lot of prior habits need to be unlearned. DC look like they can still do a fine job. But 40k if a lot less point and click, units need to be used together to get the most out of them. I hear Vanguard Vets can take two chainswords. That is a Lot of choppy!

I checked their stat page, it looks like something we'll need an errata on since it's not very clear.

Viable? Yes. Appearing at the top tables? Not with this list. That may change once the codexes come along but no not just yet.

Also melta-cide has became multi-meltacide for me. I'm tempted with 4 in a pod and dropping Dante in close for the re-rolls. That should hurt something.

Also worth remembering that we can now put another unit in pods with them as well. Maybe something complementary like plasma vets. Might cost a bit but it'll lay down the hurt.

Based on what i've seen, BA look like they might be the best marine army, possibly second only to Space Wolves if anyone.

 Marmatag wrote:
Based on what i've seen, BA look like they might be the best marine army, possibly second only to Space Wolves if anyone.

How do you figure?

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Based on what i've seen, BA look like they might be the best marine army, possibly second only to Space Wolves if anyone.

How do you figure?

I am still very much in theoryhammer mode but I have some ideas from looking at the lists. Blood Angels are all about the auras provided by the various HQs, particularly the +1S from the Sanguinary Priest's Grails. Death Company are still pretty cheap and get access to cheap power weapons. A DC with Jump Pack and Power Sword is 24 points. Have him within range of a Priest and he can wound anything up a Landraider or Wraithknight on a 5+ with -3AP. If he is near Lemartes, he gets rerolls to charge and to hit. If there is a Librarian of some flavour nearby then Shield of Sanguinius gives the guys a 4++.

With a few characters to back them up, DC quickly become a very scary unit for not a massive amount of points.

If you want something a bit more elite then Sanguinary Guard with plasma pistols hit hard. Give them a Captain or Warlord nearby to reroll 1s and they can overcharge their plasma pistols all day to bust tough targets. A Sanguinary Priest will help keep the expensive dudes alive as well as providing the lovely +1S.

Storm Ravens really rock now as they can fire all their weapons 360-degrees and disembark their infantry and dreadnoughts while still flying supersonic. Cast shield on that and your opponent will weep at a tough vehicle with -1 to hit and a 4++.

Troops are not really our strong point. If you want to run with Command points then sniper Scouts look good for any army that can take them or a couple of cheap tactical squads are OK. Otherwise, head straight for the Vanguard and Supreme Command Detachments and fill your boots with tasty HQs and Elites.

Martel732 wrote:
Dante is not overpriced when you realize he allows the rerolling of ALL to hit rolls. And he murders other characters in CC.

I still think the Baal predator is paying for its role on the battlefield. A TLAC razorback is much more likely to be "turned off" by being assaulted.

Also, company vets with jump packs can deliver melta just fine.

I think the flamer variant Razors and Baals are better for BA. They don't care if they shoot in the shooting phase or in overwatch, and you actually want them to be assaulted to set up charges for your assault units.
Ditto the Frag Cannon Furioso.

Assault flamer type weapons are amazing this edition.

Edit - At first impressions stage I probably think BA is best served by MSU assault units (with melta) buffed by character auras, supported by flame tanks and Stormravens

How would you build the meltacide vet squad with company vets not having restrictions their weapons? Given that I build them with the rule of cool since I dont play, I was thinking triple melta, double inferno pistol +fists

dread05 wrote:
How would you build the meltacide vet squad with company vets not having restrictions their weapons? Given that I build them with the rule of cool since I dont play, I was thinking triple melta, double inferno pistol +fists

Meltacide is going to be trickier to pull off for sure. If you Deep Strike (even with pods) you cannot get closer than 9" to the enemy which rather nerfs Inferno pistols (shame as I had a couple of dual gunslinger sergeants in this config). If you want to Deep Strike then meltas + combi meltas are probably the way to go. If you plan to jump them up the field then the config you have suggested should work well.

Given the general increase in vehicle toughness in this edition, I am not sure if meltacide is still going to be particularly viable. It puts all your eggs in one basket and is also unlikely to kill anything tougher than a Rhino in one volley. I think a better solution might be to spread your melta around. DC and SG make good Inferno pistol carriers and can shoot, even while engaged. Add in some long-ranged AT as I don't think we can manage without it.

Now the game is going to be softening up the vehicles for a couple of turns with lascannon shots and then sending in the jump pack squads with IPs, fists etc to finish the job.

Just to give you an idea of the MathHammer behind why Meltacide is dead, it will take on average 17 melta gun shots at 9" range to kill a Land Raider. Now the odds improve a bit once you get into half-range but you cannot do that on the turn you drop. So you would need to spend 595 points on 17 JP Vets with melta guns to one-shot a Land Raider which would only be worth 350-ish points. After that, good luck keeping those expensive, 1-wound, mono-tasked models alive long enough to make their points back.

Hmm you do make a point. Fact is, I bought the veterans and the jump packs, I just dont know what to equip them with. Maybe plasma's and combi plasma's to make a good shooty squad? Would they even need the jump packs at that point?

 Karhedron wrote:
It seems to be early days for Blood Angels. My hunch is that they will play well as Marines with a CC twist rather than the full-on assault armies of 7th edition. I have had a good read through of the new list although I haven't tried them out yet but here are some of my initial impressions.

* Bubble abilities from our leaders seem more important now. If you want BAs to play the way you imagine them, invest more in characters (not a problem since the new Detachments allow plenty more options for HQ slots).

* Dante is OK but seems overpriced. Mephiston and Astorath are proper beat sticks. Lemartes also looks fun for his charge rerolls.

* DC are a bit less powerful but still good. Don't overspend on toys for them. Jump Packs look better value than transports.

* DC and Furioso Dreads seem poor compared to vanilla versions as they are less durable than Vens or Ironclads but are quite pricey. The loss of Drop Pods hurts. The faster movement is useful but I am not sure it is enough.

* Libby Dreads are characters are so can hide as they have < 10 wounds. I think they are a great psychic support unit.

* Termies benefit from the extra wound but no more so than a anyone elses.

* Sanguinary Guard are expensive. I cannot figure out why the Angelus boltgun costs so much. It is now cheaper to give them plasma pistols and they can fire them even while in close combat. Have them accompany a Captain so you can reroll 1s to hit and you can fairly safely overcharge them too.

* Storm Ravens rock! So much firepower! It can now move supersonic, benefit from a -1 to hit against enemy shooting, fire all it weapons 360-degrees and the guys inside can still disembark without it having to switch to hover mode! This is how you get your Dreads into combat. If you haven't already got some, buy now!

* Meltacide squads are harder now as you must land 9" away which puts you outside bonus range for melta guns and out of range at all for Inferno pistols. Combi-melta is probably now the way to go on the seargents and you will need to use Company Veterans to pull off this wargear combo. Given the increased price of pods, I think there are probably better ways of busting tanks now.

* We can run vanilla toys in our Detachments so Centurions, Stalkers etc are usable now although they don't benefit from our HQ bubble abilities. Also Grav has been toned down so less incentive to do so.

* Baal predator seems overpriced. Save yourself 42 points and get a TLAC Razorback which has a transport capacity of 6, does not use up an HS slot and only has 1 wound less.

Wait? No Drop Pods? Is this for BA or is that across the board for all GW? I haven't gotten my hands on any of the new books yet so I haven't seen this. Please explain cause that changes a lot for me with not only my BA army but if that is for a lot of armies that will really suck cause I run a lot of units out of Drop Pods.

 SGrimhart wrote:


Wait? No Drop Pods? Is this for BA or is that across the board for all GW? I haven't gotten my hands on any of the new books yet so I haven't seen this. Please explain cause that changes a lot for me with not only my BA army but if that is for a lot of armies that will really suck cause I run a lot of units out of Drop Pods.

No drop pods for dreads anymore.

dread05 wrote:
Hmm you do make a point. Fact is, I bought the veterans and the jump packs, I just dont know what to equip them with. Maybe plasma's and combi plasma's to make a good shooty squad? Would they even need the jump packs at that point?

Plasma is pretty good and using Jump Packs to get into half-range for rapid fire is OK (although a TLAC Razorback will give more protection and more firepower). If you do this, you might want to consider running a cheap JP Captain with them to reroll 1s. This allows you to overcharge the plasma guns fairly safely when shooting at tougher or multi-wound targets.

Jump Pack melta squads can still work to finish off a damaged unit, I just wouldn't deep strike them next to the target necessarily (not if they had IPs anyway ). A Predator with 4 lascannons will put 5 wounds per turn (average) on most MBTs in the game (4 on a Land raider) and costs 202 points. You would need 5 Vets with melta guns to achieve the same effect which costs 180 points. Now the Vets become better than the Predator at <6" when the melta rule kicks in, they are faster and do not lose accuracy when they move. The downside is that they are T4 vs T7 for the Predator and have only half the number of wounds. Each wound will rob them of a shot while the Predator doesn't even start to lose effectiveness until it has suffered 6 wounds (which would more than kill the Vets).

I think that Lascannons are probably the way forward for dedicated anti-tank units in 8th edition. Melta still has a place but probably spread across several units rather than concentrated.

Like I say, this is all just TheoryHammer on my part based on number crunching and looking at the new rules. It may well be that people's experiences in battle turn out to be different.

Another use for Company veterans would be equipped for CC and accompanying Dante. Give the squad 2-3 Storm shields and a Thunder hammer or two while the rest of the squad get cheap power swords. They can soak wounds off Dante in CC on a 2+. It makes them cheaper as not everyone needs a Storm Shield. If a big bad swings at Dante, you can use his 2+/4++ save and then pass off any unsaved wounds onto cheap company vets. If the big bad swings at the squad instead, use 2-3 Storm shields to take the brunt of the assault while Dante kicks its derrier.

Company Vets have good bodyguard rules and those rules work even better when accompanying a beat-stick like Dante.

 Purifier wrote:

 SGrimhart wrote:


Wait? No Drop Pods? Is this for BA or is that across the board for all GW? I haven't gotten my hands on any of the new books yet so I haven't seen this. Please explain cause that changes a lot for me with not only my BA army but if that is for a lot of armies that will really suck cause I run a lot of units out of Drop Pods.

No drop pods for dreads anymore.

Ok. Phew ...but that still sucks cause unless you have a flier that can transport them in they are walking across the field. Makes Dreads more support than get in a battle. I will still use mine as he has viability, he just won't walk out into the open and stand there.

 SGrimhart wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 SGrimhart wrote:
Wait? No Drop Pods? Is this for BA or is that across the board for all GW? I haven't gotten my hands on any of the new books yet so I haven't seen this. Please explain cause that changes a lot for me with not only my BA army but if that is for a lot of armies that will really suck cause I run a lot of units out of Drop Pods.

No drop pods for dreads anymore.

Ok. Phew ...but that still sucks cause unless you have a flier that can transport them in they are walking across the field. Makes Dreads more support than get in a battle. I will still use mine as he has viability, he just won't walk out into the open and stand there.

I'm planning on running my Dreadnought with a TL Lascannon and Heavy Flamer and keeping it in the back for backfield support with the long range stuff. Alternatively, take a Dread with Assault Cannon for mid-range support.

It's worthy of note that BA specialty dreads move 8", not 6". Doesn't seem like much, but especially if you Advance turn 1, that can get you stuck in considerably sooner.

Seems like this edition they wanted to get rid of the "surpise - gotcha you're dead!" type stuff, so no dreads in Drop-pods... but the Drop-pod is also significantly more points in general, now making the rhino the much better option of the two for infantry.

Even with an 8" move a CC dread is pretty much crap walking across the table. We've had dreads with rage moves and Fleet in the past, but NEVER has a walking CC dread been a good option - it's just too situational. Against the right match-up it can be good, though not an "all-comers lists" type unit.

I think they were viable in 7-th. Even better in 8.

I am really confused, people are saying that Sanguinary Guard are expensive, mainly because the Angelus boltgun is 9pts...but is it not included in the 22 pt base cost of the model? It is listed in the equipment on the models data sheet.