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So how would you guys deal with Razorback AC spam backed up by 2-3 predators/dev squads plus the big papa smurf himself RG?

That seems like a very solid gunline that will reroll hits and wounds and have enough shots to deal with anything!

6 AC Razor, 2 LasC preds or 2 units of devs, and RG is about 1400pts. Use the other 600 for some scouts/tac marines/bikes.

Yes, this is really rough. I suspect it's favored against almost anything. I think the main thing to do is to try to get into CC with the Razorbacks if they're all close enough to RG to get his buff. You need to shut them down because their shooting is phenomenal, but you don't really have time to try to destroy them because they're also extremely durable. So you want fast chargers. You probably need to kill RG himself early on if he's anywhere close because he's a monster in CC and he's increasing the offensive power of everything near him by something like 75% or more. You do this with relatively low-strength attacks without great AP, preferably AP-1 -- ironically, Assault Cannons are a great choice for shooting at him, expecting to do more damage than a Lascannon -- or with lots of mortal wounds.

But, yeah, overpowered things are overpowered. It'll be hard to beat.

Locking into combat is probably a solid option out of deep strike with things that have a good chance to make it into it.

Otherwise good cover + target prioritizing with long range dedicated anti tank is probably a good idea.

I hope they repoint the AC or razorback. Heavy 12 R24 S6 AP-1 D1 for about 100points on a T7 W10 (or 11?) with AS3+ and has 5 (or 6?) transport capacity! Seems to be too good for the points. I mean a dev squad with 4 HB cost more!

I say the stock Razorback should be at least 100 points like the predator and TL AC should be double the cost of AC...

It is a hard hitting list with lots of fire power no doubt, but maybe not as undefeatable as first impressions. I think for around 1400pts, you likely can get Swarmlord with a couple Tyrant Guards, somewhere around 70 Genstealers if my calculation is right, for the next 600 points grab a couple Exocrines and Biovores, and maybe a Tyrannocyte or two to transport some Genestealers. With the buff of Swarmlord, stealers charge threat range will be average 30 inches, and if lucky enough, they can charge something 40 inch away, so pretty sure can pull off a 1st turn charge which will slience those guns. Those marines are bubble warpping with cheap scouts? Don't worry, eat 12 Bio Plasma Cannon shots from each Exocrines sitting at 36 inch away! Grandpa Smuff? Eat mortal wounds from Biovores turn after turn! Massed assault cannon overwatch? Dont't worry, even with RG's buff, each twin AC Razorback on average landing 4 shots in overwatch, with the new wounding system, even conservative speaking only need to prepare 3 dices for saving throws, so on average 5++ means only 2 Genestealers will die to overwatch in each broods, but then your rest Genestealer will tear a new hole in anything they touch

Short version: You can't.

Best bet is to get in melee; but, the Razorbacks will block charge lanes/deep strikes all day, and don't go down to any reasonable amount of firepower. Faced a MSU+5 rhino list the other day; Rhinos are so tanky and block lanes like no-ones business; good luck getting close lol.

It'll definitely be real tough to beat.

@Tautastic: Yeah, its op - but when is anything Space Marine not. Seriously though, new vehicles are so tanky - MSU+Rhino/Razorback spam survives far longer than it should; and ACs will rip anything apart.

Gotta make sure you have dedicated anti tank.

it was definitely a factor for the games i played

because basically every vehicle is tough AF

which is fantastic.

i will need to try out the assbacks before i can really say they are OP or not.

Dreadnoughts was fun punching through a rhino in a single assault.

Depenxs on which army you are bringing. I played against list similar to this in 4th/5th and it really depends on the rolls.

I play guard fyi.
Really depends who can destroy 2 or 3 of the others unit/vehicles first

Something tells me walker spam can work. Something like a Gorkanaught with kff mek or a knight can tank a lot of this stuff and than rip a razor per turn apart. Might go down to rawbutt but than you have other stuff around.

What exactly is UM AC Razorback spam?

Does the UM have a specific benefit or is it just hat Vehicle which is good?

Razerous wrote:
What exactly is UM AC Razorback spam?

Does the UM have a specific benefit or is it just hat Vehicle which is good?

Probably rowboat with his ultimate im a good player within 6" rerolls

the other chapter characters are also no slouch with full rerolls to hit.

Answer spam with spam.

Welcome to 8th...

Tautastic wrote:
I hope they repoint the AC or razorback. Heavy 12 R24 S6 AP-1 D1 for about 100points on a T7 W10 (or 11?) with AS3+ and has 5 (or 6?) transport capacity! Seems to be too good for the points. I mean a dev squad with 4 HB cost more!

I say the stock Razorback should be at least 100 points like the predator and TL AC should be double the cost of AC...

So the Immolator with Immolation flamer for around the same cost gets 2d6 (instead of 12!) autohits (9 avg is still better than 7 avg) at one less strength and half the range...

Any chance folks can share the approx value of the Razorback with a TL-AS, seeing as we're before release?!

Razerous wrote:
Any chance folks can share the approx value of the Razorback with a TL-AS, seeing as we're before release?!

It is 100 pts.

Oh wow, that's obviously too cheap. Pesky GW.

One fairly good tactic against tanks like this is to charge them whenever possible, even if you can't hurt them. I think my ghostkeels are going to spend a lot of their time doing this, just so that the enemy is forced to pull back in his turn.

This tactic may not work quite so well if RG is in the vicinity. In that situation I think staying far away and spamming missiles might be my preferred option.

Is RB a transport or a heavy choice?

 ArmyC wrote:
Is RB a transport or a heavy choice?

it is a Dedicated Transport.

Its going to be hard to keep more than a few withing the aura while also being in range. Take advantage of this limitation and fire from range while splitting your forces. One to one side and one to the other. That way its hard to be in range of both sides at the same time.

Actually moving 10 and the 6" aura is not that easy to avoid, you can still fit in a few RB there to benefit

What I wonder is how GW design guilliman. For his points he is amazing and his Buffs are better than guide and doom convined, so if you tenmove the 110 points that a payment would cost, he is a freaking monster or n combat

Mandragola wrote:
Oh wow, that's obviously too cheap. Pesky GW.

One fairly good tactic against tanks like this is to charge them whenever possible, even if you can't hurt them. I think my ghostkeels are going to spend a lot of their time doing this, just so that the enemy is forced to pull back in his turn.

This tactic may not work quite so well if RG is in the vicinity. In that situation I think staying far away and spamming missiles might be my preferred option.

everything can hurt everything so on 6's

On that force with my current Grey knight army, I would end up going first by all the mission rules. (either 1 stormraven, 2 stormtalons, 2 landspeeders plus 2 squads in teleportium OR 2 stormravens, 2 dreadknights in teleportium). I would target the las predators with all my firepower then take the brunt of the AC on the stormravens.

Math wise, 12 x 6 = 72 shots, Hit on 3+ = 47.52 hits, wounding on 5+ = 15.68 wounds, Save on 4+ = 7.8 wounds from AC

This means each Stormraven is worth 2 turns of complete fire from the razorbacks. And it's likely would kill 1-2 razorbacks per turn. And once, the purifiers drop out of those stormravens, the razorbacks are dead. As going to melee and having a 1d6 mortal wounds in psychic phase pretty much will kill one per turn.

Youn wrote:
On that force with my current Grey knight army, I would end up going first by all the mission rules. (either 1 stormraven, 2 stormtalons, 2 landspeeders plus 2 squads in teleportium OR 2 stormravens, 2 dreadknights in teleportium). I would target the las predators with all my firepower then take the brunt of the AC on the stormravens.

Math wise, 12 x 6 = 72 shots, Hit on 3+ = 47.52 hits, wounding on 5+ = 15.68 wounds, Save on 4+ = 7.8 wounds from AC

This means each Stormraven is worth 2 turns of complete fire from the razorbacks. And it's likely would kill 1-2 razorbacks per turn. And once, the purifiers drop out of those stormravens, the razorbacks are dead. As going to melee and having a 1d6 mortal wounds in psychic phase pretty much will kill one per turn.

Don't forget papa G's aura buff! Reroll hits and wounds! So that is more likely 64 hits, 35.55 wounds, with a 4+ save that is 17.77 unsaved wound on the AC alone!

And anything that gets into melee with the razorback will be most likely dead next turn when papa G charges it.

kaintxu wrote:
Actually moving 10 and the 6" aura is not that easy to avoid, you can still fit in a few RB there to benefit

What I wonder is how GW design guilliman. For his points he is amazing and his Buffs are better than guide and doom convined, so if you tenmove the 110 points that a payment would cost, he is a freaking monster or n combat

Its the threat range of the Razorbacks you are limiting. IF they are on one side, they will lose at least 1-2 turns getting into range. Even then I have a hard time seeing more than 4-5 being in the Guilliman bubble without getting in each others way. Just asking for a deep strike Combi-Charge

I don't think he actually can take out 2 squads of Purifiers + Castellian Crowe + 1 Brother Champion + 1 Dreadnought before he dies.

Assume he charges and engages one of those units. On the next psychic phase he will pretty much take 4-15 mortal wounds. Bobby G is pretty good but he is killable.

The problem here is less the Razorbacks and more that Gulliman is wildly overpowered. He basically doubles the effectiveness of nearby units, you can't really shoot him due to him being a 9W character, he's insanely tanky and pretty much unstoppable in cc. What were they thinking? He makes all the chapter masters look like a complete joke. Thank god not all Space Marine players have Ultramarines.

Youn wrote:
I don't think he actually can take out 2 squads of Purifiers + Castellian Crowe + 1 Brother Champion + 1 Dreadnought before he dies.

Assume he charges and engages one of those units. On the next psychic phase he will pretty much take 4-15 mortal wounds. Bobby G is pretty good but he is killable.

That's assuming that Bobby G's player isn't very good. You don't charge a squad that can easily murder you.

 Leth wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
Actually moving 10 and the 6" aura is not that easy to avoid, you can still fit in a few RB there to benefit

What I wonder is how GW design guilliman. For his points he is amazing and his Buffs are better than guide and doom convined, so if you tenmove the 110 points that a payment would cost, he is a freaking monster or n combat

Its the threat range of the Razorbacks you are limiting. IF they are on one side, they will lose at least 1-2 turns getting into range. Even then I have a hard time seeing more than 4-5 being in the Guilliman bubble without getting in each others way. Just asking for a deep strike Combi-Charge

For 6 points more, you can get a HK missile on each of those razorbacks so they aren't just dorking around for one of those turns.

 JohnU wrote:

 Leth wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
Actually moving 10 and the 6" aura is not that easy to avoid, you can still fit in a few RB there to benefit

What I wonder is how GW design guilliman. For his points he is amazing and his Buffs are better than guide and doom convined, so if you tenmove the 110 points that a payment would cost, he is a freaking monster or n combat

Its the threat range of the Razorbacks you are limiting. IF they are on one side, they will lose at least 1-2 turns getting into range. Even then I have a hard time seeing more than 4-5 being in the Guilliman bubble without getting in each others way. Just asking for a deep strike Combi-Charge

For 6 points more, you can get a HK missile on each of those razorbacks so they aren't just dorking around for one of those turns.

Also, the DS counter will be limited against a good player. Positioning to remove prime DS territory isn't rocket science. I think you guys are underestimating the threat range of 24" weapons on a 6x4 board - those AC RBs threaten most of the board after one turn of movement max. SO long as you have some volume of dakka that ranges to the rear of the enemies deployment zone you're good.

This is why the change to re-rolls/modifiers...

Tones down the whole re-roll thing.