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Made in us
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





Oklahoma City

I am just so...conflicted...and...angry...about the new direction that the GW fluff is going. I've been a fan of the setting since 1992. My first 40K army was an Eldar Aspect Warrior army. I still have those miniatures, and have used them for decades now. Since that time, I have purchased almost every army that GW has ever released. I have read almost all of the Black Library books. I have played the video games. I even bought the movie.

Now, I'm an adult. I'm not against change. I know that GW is a company, and needs to make money. But, I can't help but feel like they are going in a direction that I simply cannot follow.

I love the fluff of the 40K universe. Every theme, even though taken from numerous sources, were blended into a world that moved me. I played every edition, despite the various problems, because I loved the fluff. I loved the story of the Astartes especially.

Now, at least to me, it's like GW is just throwing all of that away, so that they can sell big miniatures. And, it makes me so sad...

I get it. GW can make Primaris Marines for the same cost, but sell them for even more profit. You watch. 5 Primaris Marines will sell for $60 US. Versus 10 Astartes for $40. Similar cost to produce, but more profit for the company. I understand their reasoning. I just cannot stand the hamfisted fluff. It makes a mockery of everything that the Astartes have done for the last 10,000 years in the setting.

I just don't know what to do with my collection now...because, don't fool yourselves...the Astartes are gone. It will just take some time. Sure, GW said that they will not Squat any army, and that there will always be a place for the Astartes. But, this is nothing more than a hollow platitude. Don't believe me? Just look at Age of Sigmar. Sure, you can still play your Imperial army from years ago...but it is basically dead. Nothing new for it. Almost no mention of it in the fluff. It is all Stormcast, all the time. The same thing will happen with 40K. Even in the new book, Guilliman states that the "days of the Astartes are numbered".

So, what do I do now? Do I keep the 2,000 plus miniatures collection that I have amassed over almost 25 years of gaming, and only play games with my friends? Or, do I sell off my labor of love, and look for new inspiration?

I can still remember when a box of 30 Space Marines was $30.00. Now THAT'S old school! In fact, I started playing in the Rogue Trader days...yes, I am that old. Played Warhammer Fantasy for years before Rogue Trader even came out...

6,800 Pts. Ultramarines, 1,500 Pts. Deathwatch, 1,000 Pts. Black Templars, 1,000 Pts. Blood Ravens, 1,000 Pts. Emperors Children, 2,000 Pts. Word Bearers, 3,500 Pts. Eldar (Alaitoc or Biel-tan), 2,000 Pts. Tau, 2,000 Pts. Sisters of Battle, 999 Pts. of Thousand Sons, 1,000 Points Dark Eldar, 1,000 Points Adeptus Arbites, 1,000 Points Freebooters, 1,000 Points "Last Chancers", 1,000 Points Tyranids, 1,000 Points Necrons

2,500 Pts. Brotherhood, 2,000 Pts. Undead, 2,000 Pts. Sylvan Kin Elves, 2,000 Pts. Empire of Dust, 3,000 Pts. Orcs with Goblin Allies

5 Necromunda Gangs, 10 Mordheim Warbands, and 5 Frostgrave warbands 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Punished Stannis





Everett, Washington

If you've been playing as long as you say you have you've already gone through fluff changes for the Astartes once.

Stop worrying about it and look at it like this. Its your collection, you love it, even if this fluff change for what ever stupid reason makes you want to quit or look for inspiration for a new army, its not gonna make you stop loving the collection you have.

If you wanna keep with it, grow the collection, evolve it. Talk to people about how when you first started Space Marines were pretty much Space Convicts turned into slightly super soldiers, and now they are this.

Or, if you wanna quit, keep it as something to show off years of hard work and dedication. That's never gonna change.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar





More to the point, Have you read Dark Imperium?

Because if not, shut up and read that first, the people who panic the most are unceasingly people whom haven't read it, have instead read one or two bits of spoilers, and utterly misunderstood the situation.

standard Space Marines aren't going anywhere for at LEAST an edition (and I doubt they ever will for the reasons you're angry) will they take a back seat in the fluff? MAYBE, on the other hand, Dark Imperium showed us primaris and regular Marines fighting side by side. We can assume that to continue.
so sit back, calm down and, read the novel (it's actually, pretty good, well... for a 40k novel

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator





Looking for the Rest of the II Legion

I'm not terribly concerned with the way things are going unless I've overlooked something crucial.... The collection you have can represent whatever narrative you chose to stick to and no one can take that away from you anyway.

"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest, to children ardent for some desperate glory the old lie, Dulce et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori."
Grey Knights ~ 3500, Fully Painted =][= Space Wolves ~ 4000, Fully Painted =][= Prosperine Exiles ~ WIP =][= Sons of Altia ~ WIP
 
   
Made in kr
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




your mind

I feel your pain.
From what I understand, old marines can be upgraded to take advantage of new rules, made primaris after the fact.
As for the models I don't like the noselessness of the newbies too much.
Hopefully gw gets it together and realizes the true value of their properties and chooses to move responsibly in a dawning era of rapidly distributed production and design.
Without goodwill and community they will piddle away their depth and become just another brand in a sea of noise.
The new edition seems to have leveled some things and gw has seemed responsive to community concerns.
We will have to see how it plays out but if they try to squat things easily or keep writing rules and narratives to rectify marketing misestimations e.g. the taurox prime then the blowback maybe even more severe than they suffered from the mishandling of AoS.
Anyways state involved. Keep the faith. Girlman will get trapped or sold out if gw has any sense and they can use this to mirror the split in sentiment over the new marines - see the recent poll here on dakka pro or con on the new marines, votes are close to split.
Some of use will play old imperium and ignore or hunt primaries weenies. Some will move ahead and replace their armies. Some will start with astartes newcast. The they may see the virtue of opening design to all supportable factions and the continuity that facilitates the strong and loyal self promoting consumer and fan base that they started taking for granted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 05:42:11


   
Made in nl
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Crimea

 CaptainLoken wrote:


I just don't know what to do with my collection now...because, don't fool yourselves...the Astartes are gone. It will just take some time. Sure, GW said that they will not Squat any army, and that there will always be a place for the Astartes. But, this is nothing more than a hollow platitude. Don't believe me? Just look at Age of Sigmar. Sure, you can still play your Imperial army from years ago...but it is basically dead. Nothing new for it. Almost no mention of it in the fluff. It is all Stormcast, all the time. The same thing will happen with 40K. Even in the new book, Guilliman states that the "days of the Astartes are numbered".

So, what do I do now? Do I keep the 2,000 plus miniatures collection that I have amassed over almost 25 years of gaming, and only play games with my friends? Or, do I sell off my labor of love, and look for new inspiration?

A few years ago, GW released the Militarum Tempestus. Militarum Tempestus were Imperial Guard+1. Yet the Imperial Guard was not squatted. Now they release the Primaris, who are Space Marines+1. Why should this mean the Space Marines are going to get squatted?
Why would GW take the risk of destroying the miniature range that singlehandedly makes them the vast majority of their profit? To put it quite simply, GW can not mess with the Space Marine range, let alone remove it. They simply can not afford it money-wise, they would be gambling with the existence of their company. GW is not stupid, they are not doing that. Primaris and regular Astartes are going to be living side by side for a very long time to come.
Don't get hysterical, take a deep breath and think clearly. Do you really want to destroy 25 years of work just because of the introduction of a new faction you don't like in the fluff? This doesn't remove anything that you like about 40k, all of that is still there. Hell, even if GW were to squat the entire 40k universe like they did with Fantasy, it won't stop you from enjoying that world. All the awesome books, miniatures and video games are still there, there just isn't any new being added.
You should keep your stuff, because if you sell it you are very likely to be going to regret it later.

As a sidenote, I really, really hate the new fluff as well...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 08:21:31


WH40K: Inquisition and Deathwatch, Ash Wyrms, Urshan Legion (tanks, tanks and more tanks!) Lords of the Wailing Choir, Renegades Deffskullz
All hail the Four-Armed Emperor!

The above post has not been written by an Alpha Legion operative. 
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

I stopped caring about the direction GW took their fluff back in 3rd ed.

The game just became more fun that way. Less angst, sturm und drang (and other KMFDM albums).

I'm 49.
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.


 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






I'm with you on this one. Yes people can say 'it's your collection, they can represent whatever it is you like', but when you really get down to it...the official fluff genuinely matters.

To be blunt about it, the new Primaris fluff just isn't as nuanced, well crafted, inspiring or interesting as the Astartes fluff. It just isn't. It's Wardian Ultramarines, but applied to the whole Imperium. An excuse to give Marines upgrades to make them top-dogs with no downsides just doesn't gel with the rest of 40k to me.

I will say that Dark Imperium is really well crafted, and I strongly encourage you to read it. It puts a lot of it in perspective and sort of dims down the noblebright quite a lot. There's also tons and tons and tons of really cool stuff they could do with Primaris Marines fluff. Whether they will or not I don't know.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in se
Member of the Malleus





I've had two similar peaks of the very same feeling. First was during the Ward era of 5th ed. Second was during the release of the Imperial knights. The feeling never really went away in either case tbh. I still hate knights. Mostly for their fluff not making any sense. I also deny the 5th ed fluff that marines go through scout-->devastator-->assults-->tactical and that all chapters aspire to be Ultramarines. I despise that the C'tan are infact the slaves of the Necrons.

I was also quite bothered when the Inquisition was changed and, in my eyes, ruined. GK, DW and SoB used to be the Inquisitions military. Now they're just kind of friends, and GK will even hapily fight alongside deamons. Many things like this Inquisition change, the Necron rework, the deamon losing the instability rule, demonic possesion being removed, kill team being removed (recently brought back with much less intresting rules) and the ally chart being made up of about 50% diffrent Space marine chapters (lore wise comparivly insignificant forces) has made me angry at the game. The two things mentioned above though are the only ones that got me close to quitting.

However the game didn't really change much and I kept my own lore for my armies. I kept on reading 40k books and pick up various ones when I feel like it. 40k as a whole is changing and I'm embracing the change so far. Lore wise I don't think they've gone as bad as they could have, though they certainly didn't take the best route IMO. Basicly what I'm saying is this'll probably burn for a long time and might never go away, but 40k will remain. Your dudes can happily rebel against the Imperium and Guillimans new toy soldiers. Don't buy the propaganda of the gw because nothing sits well with everyone in 40k. If there is but one truth in 40k it is that, no matter what happens, no matter what achievements are made, there is only war. There can be no peace among the stars. Only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm with you on this one. Yes people can say 'it's your collection, they can represent whatever it is you like', but when you really get down to it...the official fluff genuinely matters.

To be blunt about it, the new Primaris fluff just isn't as nuanced, well crafted, inspiring or interesting as the Astartes fluff. It just isn't. It's Wardian Ultramarines, but applied to the whole Imperium. An excuse to give Marines upgrades to make them top-dogs with no downsides just doesn't gel with the rest of 40k to me.

I will say that Dark Imperium is really well crafted, and I strongly encourage you to read it. It puts a lot of it in perspective and sort of dims down the noblebright quite a lot. There's also tons and tons and tons of really cool stuff they could do with Primaris Marines fluff. Whether they will or not I don't know.


How nuanced was space Marine fluff back at the dawn of 40K?

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral





Seneca Nation of Indians

I'm a bit on the positive side with it, as a mostly BFG player, it's fun watching my fellow players writhe now that Bakka's famed 'Big Gun Lobby' that forces IN carriers suck are now entertaining arena goers in Commorragh.

To err is human, to forgive is contrary to official SAC policy.
 
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





 Nerak wrote:
Second was during the release of the Imperial knights. The feeling never really went away in either case tbh. I still hate knights. Mostly for their fluff not making any sense.


What is your issue with Knights fluff?

do note.. Imperial Knights have been around since Epic, they only recently made an appearance in 40k
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






BrianDavion wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm with you on this one. Yes people can say 'it's your collection, they can represent whatever it is you like', but when you really get down to it...the official fluff genuinely matters.

To be blunt about it, the new Primaris fluff just isn't as nuanced, well crafted, inspiring or interesting as the Astartes fluff. It just isn't. It's Wardian Ultramarines, but applied to the whole Imperium. An excuse to give Marines upgrades to make them top-dogs with no downsides just doesn't gel with the rest of 40k to me.

I will say that Dark Imperium is really well crafted, and I strongly encourage you to read it. It puts a lot of it in perspective and sort of dims down the noblebright quite a lot. There's also tons and tons and tons of really cool stuff they could do with Primaris Marines fluff. Whether they will or not I don't know.


How nuanced was space Marine fluff back at the dawn of 40K?


Hah good point

I'd wager more nuanced than Primaris though. They were mind-wiped convicts pushed through a genetic engineering process and unleashed upon the galaxy, rather than just Marines +1 with no drawbacks.

There's a fantastic amount of potential for nuanced Primaris fluff. I like what they're doing with Cawl being a bit of an insidious character, and the fact that we probably can't trust any of his claims about lack of susceptibility to Chaos, lack of gene-seed flaws, and what his true aims are (all from Dark Imperium). I also like what they've started doing with Guilliman. He's starting to show doubt, which is really nice to see in someone they could have painted as utterly Mary Sue.

There are narrative options for Primaris tying them to Thunder Warriors, producing conflict between some Astartes who go off the deep end thinking they're going to get purged and replaced (with the slightest of hints that they might be right), some really nice options for exploring what meddling with genetic engineering can result in considering even the Emperor screwed up, and some excellent options for Traitor/Purged/Lost geneseed.

Back when we thought they were vat-grown, there was an utterly fantastic narrative option for exploring what it means to actually be human in the context of the 40k universe. The Emperor was absolutely dead certain to make his warriors begin their life as normal humans to try and keep them grounded and have a dog in the fight they're fighting (which has worked to varying degrees). If the Primaris were vat-grown, they could do some absolutely phenomenal things exploring what it would be like for a warrior with no connection to humanity beyond what they've been indoctrinated to believe. They're not even genetically human, they're engineered tools. How do you think some of them are going to react when they come to the realisation that they have no connection to the people they're fighting and dying for beyond indoctrination?

Unfortunately, that particular narrative option is sort of closed off now. Turns out they're not vat-grown, the vats depicted in the fluff were stasis chambers, and Primaris Marines appear to be made in a similar way to normal Marines (but probably faster, because Mary Sue). Shame, because it was really damn cool.

Now, I would be absolutely ecstatic if they pursued any of these narrative options with any sort of conviction, but I'm slightly skeptical if they will. Mainly due to target market. There are a whole lot of people out there who just want the bestest strongest purest peeps out there. People who will say things like 'yeah, well, my guys are stronger and more resistant to Chaos than your dudes'. These people have money. They will also get pretty butthurt if it turns out that their dudes aren't actually stronger and faster and don't afraid of anything. I'm wondering if there are more potential sales within the Wardian brigade than within the nuance brigade, and how much they're willing to drift away from what makes 40k feel different to other IPs chasing after mainstream appeal...

Edit: I just want to say that this is in no way a criticism of the writers. I think they tend to get a lot of flak for new fluff developments when they're probably beholden to a number of things, one of which is market forces. They've got to appeal to a ton of different potential customers, which inevitably means disappointing some people because it's fantastically difficult to write something that appeals to both the noblebright and grimdark brigade. As a staunch member of the grimdark brigade, I just hope they make something bad happen with the Primaris dudes. I'll feel a lot better if that happened oh, and make the Eldar stab the Imperium in the back while we're at it. They're malicious manipulative xenos and people might be mistaken for thinking they're allies...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 09:19:42


Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in pt
Skillful Swordmaster




The Shadowlands of Nagarythe

BrianDavion wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm with you on this one. Yes people can say 'it's your collection, they can represent whatever it is you like', but when you really get down to it...the official fluff genuinely matters.

To be blunt about it, the new Primaris fluff just isn't as nuanced, well crafted, inspiring or interesting as the Astartes fluff. It just isn't. It's Wardian Ultramarines, but applied to the whole Imperium. An excuse to give Marines upgrades to make them top-dogs with no downsides just doesn't gel with the rest of 40k to me.

I will say that Dark Imperium is really well crafted, and I strongly encourage you to read it. It puts a lot of it in perspective and sort of dims down the noblebright quite a lot. There's also tons and tons and tons of really cool stuff they could do with Primaris Marines fluff. Whether they will or not I don't know.


How nuanced was space Marine fluff back at the dawn of 40K?


While you do have a point, we need to remember that the dawn of 40k was over two decades ago, at the very birth of 40k while the Primaris didn't.

"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws." http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/

 
   
Made in at
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





 Iron_Captain wrote:
A few years ago, GW released the Militarum Tempestus. Militarum Tempestus were Imperial Guard+1. Yet the Imperial Guard was not squatted. Now they release the Primaris, who are Space Marines+1. Why should this mean the Space Marines are going to get squatted?

Militarum Tempestus were just renamed Storm Troopers in the same vain as Imperial Guard were changed to Astra Militarum, they'd always been there.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Why would GW take the risk of destroying the miniature range that singlehandedly makes them the vast majority of their profit? To put it quite simply, GW can not mess with the Space Marine range, let alone remove it. They simply can not afford it money-wise, they would be gambling with the existence of their company. GW is not stupid, they are not doing that. Primaris and regular Astartes are going to be living side by side for a very long time to come.
Don't get hysterical, take a deep breath and think clearly. Do you really want to destroy 25 years of work just because of the introduction of a new faction you don't like in the fluff? This doesn't remove anything that you like about 40k, all of that is still there. Hell, even if GW were to squat the entire 40k universe like they did with Fantasy, it won't stop you from enjoying that world. All the awesome books, miniatures and video games are still there, there just isn't any new being added.
You should keep your stuff, because if you sell it you are very likely to be going to regret it later

Fantasy.

They were willing to destroy an entire mainline game which included phasing out almost the entire model range if it meant they could get an excuse to make the kids buy into the Sigmarines. For all people go "b-b-but this is different!" the fact remains that Games Workshop have ABSOLUTELY shown their willingness to eliminate great swathes of their product if they believe it will produce more profit. And what would produce more profit than making everybody rebuy their Space Marines? We had this exact discussion when the first AoS rumours started appearing. So many people - probably the vast majority - both cynics and optimists alike were sure they wouldn't cull Fantasy and yet here we are.

Now unlike Fantasy I don't think this will happen overnight, but it will happen gradually. As more and more Primaris kits are produced, people start adding these parts to their existing SM armies over time. A vehicle here, a squad there, another character. Before too long they've got a healthy amount of Primaris 'added' to their collection. Whilst this is happening the releases for Manlet marines will steadily decrease, overtaken by Primaris releases. This will happen so gradually that by the time they just stop support for Manlet Marines altogether so many people will have points enough of Primaris that dissenting voices will be drowned out under, "Well I've got 2000+ points of Primaris bro so this doesn't affect me! The game's gotta continue to grow bro, sorry you gotta be left behind!" and other such statements.

As for the narrative and its awful fluff, if there is one thing I've learnt from popular products with awful writing (World of Warcraft, 40k, Age of Sigmar, Final Fantasy) is that controversial changes in plot have time on there side. Stuff that was considered absurd and dreadful years later will be staunchly defended as "just the way it is!" as the people who criticise it get tired of explaining why it's so crap.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/15 16:01:27


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Punished Stannis





Everett, Washington

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Now, I would be absolutely ecstatic if they pursued any of these narrative options with any sort of conviction, but I'm slightly skeptical if they will. Mainly due to target market. There are a whole lot of people out there who just want the bestest strongest purest peeps out there. People who will say things like 'yeah, well, my guys are stronger and more resistant to Chaos than your dudes'. These people have money. They will also get pretty butthurt if it turns out that their dudes aren't actually stronger and faster and don't afraid of anything. I'm wondering if there are more potential sales within the Wardian brigade than within the nuance brigade, and how much they're willing to drift away from what makes 40k feel different to other IPs chasing after mainstream appeal...


So because I happen to like the Primaris Marines, I'm automatically thrown in with the Wardian Brigade? That's not how things work. Secondly I don't think there is a much of a nuance to the original Astartes as you seem to think there is.

Edit: I just want to say that this is in no way a criticism of the writers. I think they tend to get a lot of flak for new fluff developments when they're probably beholden to a number of things, one of which is market forces. They've got to appeal to a ton of different potential customers, which inevitably means disappointing some people because it's fantastically difficult to write something that appeals to both the noblebright and grimdark brigade. As a staunch member of the grimdark brigade, I just hope they make something bad happen with the Primaris dudes. I'll feel a lot better if that happened oh, and make the Eldar stab the Imperium in the back while we're at it. They're malicious manipulative xenos and people might be mistaken for thinking they're allies...


People that have read the Dark Imperium book have been repeatedly saying that the Primaris showing up isn't a sudden Noblebright change to 40k, I would argue that the appearance of Primaris Marines never equated to that in the first place. It's always seemed like one last attempt to hold back the dark rather than a sudden "We're winning at everything, nothing more to worry about ever."
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker




Midwest USA

 Arbitrator wrote:
They were willing to destroy an entire mainline game which included phasing out almost the entire model range if it meant they could get an excuse to make the kids buy into the Sigmarines. For all people go "b-b-but this is different!" the fact remains that Games Workshop have ABSOLUTELY shown their willingness to eliminate great swathes of their product if they believe it will produce more profit. And what would produce more profit than making everybody rebuy their Space Marines? We had this exact discussion when the first AoS rumours started appearing. So many people - probably the vast majority - both cynics and optimists alike were sure they wouldn't cull Fantasy and yet here we are.

Now unlike Fantasy I don't think this will happen overnight, but it will happen gradually. As more and more Primaris kits are produced, people start adding these parts to their existing SM armies over time. A vehicle here, a squad there, another character. Before too long they've got a healthy amount of Primaris 'added' to their collection. Whilst this is happening the releases for Manlet marines will steadily decrease, overtaken by Primaris releases. This will happen so gradually that by the time they just stop support for Manlet Marines altogether so many people will have points enough of Primaris that dissenting voices will be drowned out under, "Well I've got 2000+ points of Primaris bro so this doesn't affect me! The game's gotta continue to grow bro, sorry you gotta be left behind!" and other such statements.
A large part of the reason that Warhammer Fantasy got "squatted" is because of copyright issues. The only plastic kits that GW has removed from production are the generic fantasy genre units. Sure, some stayed, but GW has been competing with other companies for standard Human, Elf, and Dwarf kits for a while. They do not want to produce a product that can be confused with another company's line of models, hence why so many Warhammer Fantasy armies got split into so many new Factions so as to come up with different armies with different names that can be copyrighted. Now, we have the Aelf Swordmasters of the Eldritch Council, not just High Elf Swordmasters. They have been doing it in 40K for several years, what with the Imperial Guard becoming the Astra Militarum, and now the Eldar and Dark Eldar becoming the Aeldari and Drukhari, respectively.

Plus, I had read/heard somewhere (anecdotally as well) about British copyright laws not protecting an "image" after 30 years, which is how old Space Marines are as an aesthetic at that scale. So it might be possible that the Primaris Marines are just different enough in shape/style/image to renew that copyright protection. If that is the case, then these massive aesthetic shakeups make perfect sense from a business perspective - you can't have other people copying and selling your product.

Current projects:
- Ironjawz - Necrons - Imperium of Mankind - Death Guard

I support Narrative and Open Play! 
   
Made in ca
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine






 Ynneadwraith wrote:
To be blunt about it, the new Primaris fluff just isn't as nuanced, well crafted, inspiring or interesting as the Astartes fluff.


Much as I like 40k, I would never make this statement about 40k fluff. 40k is over the top cheese. Everything is dialed up to 11 and the words 'nuanced, well crafted and inspiring' are nowhere to be found. I'd rather use 'exaggerated, rough-hewn and melodramatic', because that fits 40k so much better. 40k is a space fantasy soap opera about people shooting other people in the face while literal deus ex machinas pop out of the woodwork to close plot holes and rip open entirely new plot holes, on the new ones have spikes and teeth and extra long gun barrels this time so you know it's serious.

   
Made in nl
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Crimea

 Arbitrator wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
A few years ago, GW released the Militarum Tempestus. Militarum Tempestus were Imperial Guard+1. Yet the Imperial Guard was not squatted. Now they release the Primaris, who are Space Marines+1. Why should this mean the Space Marines are going to get squatted?

Militarum Tempestus were just renamed Storm Troopers in the same vain as Imperial Guard were changed to Astra Militarum, they'd always been there.

Not entirely. There had been a unit in the IG codex called Storm Troopers. They never before existed as an entirely seperate army and organisation.

 Arbitrator wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Why would GW take the risk of destroying the miniature range that singlehandedly makes them the vast majority of their profit? To put it quite simply, GW can not mess with the Space Marine range, let alone remove it. They simply can not afford it money-wise, they would be gambling with the existence of their company. GW is not stupid, they are not doing that. Primaris and regular Astartes are going to be living side by side for a very long time to come.
Don't get hysterical, take a deep breath and think clearly. Do you really want to destroy 25 years of work just because of the introduction of a new faction you don't like in the fluff? This doesn't remove anything that you like about 40k, all of that is still there. Hell, even if GW were to squat the entire 40k universe like they did with Fantasy, it won't stop you from enjoying that world. All the awesome books, miniatures and video games are still there, there just isn't any new being added.
You should keep your stuff, because if you sell it you are very likely to be going to regret it later

Fantasy.

Fantasy barely made any profit anymore for GW, which is what prompted GW to develop AoS. Space Marine Tacticals made GW more money than the entire Fantasy range.

 Arbitrator wrote:
They were willing to destroy an entire mainline game which included phasing out almost the entire model range if it meant they could get an excuse to make the kids buy into the Sigmarines.
Most of the model range is still there, actually. Though certainly a lot did get removed (including stuff I wanted )
 Arbitrator wrote:
For all people go "b-b-but this is different!" the fact remains that Games Workshop have ABSOLUTELY shown their willingness to eliminate great swathes of their product if they believe it will produce more profit.
They have been shown to be willing to remove unprofitable products. Not their most profitable line that is almost making them more money than everything else put together.
 Arbitrator wrote:
And what would produce more profit than making everybody rebuy their Space Marines?
That is not the way it works. People that already have Marine armies won't be buying a Primaris army just because they already have Marines. They will be buying a Primaris army because they like the new army, same with every other new army release by GW. And since the Space Marine ranges are the most profitable, what is going to make GW more profitss than having even more Space Marine armies?
Primaris are just going to be yet another Space Marine variety so that GW can sell even more stuff to the people that love Space Marines (99% of 40k fans )

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/15 20:14:27


WH40K: Inquisition and Deathwatch, Ash Wyrms, Urshan Legion (tanks, tanks and more tanks!) Lords of the Wailing Choir, Renegades Deffskullz
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The above post has not been written by an Alpha Legion operative. 
   
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 Iron_Captain wrote:

Not entirely. There had been a unit in the IG codex called Storm Troopers. They never before existed as an entirely seperate army and organisation.


Wrong. They just switched books from Codex: Inquisition to Codex: Imperial Guard (I will not use GWs new BS name for them)

To err is human, to forgive is contrary to official SAC policy.
 
   
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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Now, I would be absolutely ecstatic if they pursued any of these narrative options with any sort of conviction, but I'm slightly skeptical if they will. Mainly due to target market. There are a whole lot of people out there who just want the bestest strongest purest peeps out there. People who will say things like 'yeah, well, my guys are stronger and more resistant to Chaos than your dudes'. These people have money. They will also get pretty butthurt if it turns out that their dudes aren't actually stronger and faster and don't afraid of anything. I'm wondering if there are more potential sales within the Wardian brigade than within the nuance brigade, and how much they're willing to drift away from what makes 40k feel different to other IPs chasing after mainstream appeal...


So because I happen to like the Primaris Marines, I'm automatically thrown in with the Wardian Brigade? That's not how things work. Secondly I don't think there is a much of a nuance to the original Astartes as you seem to think there is.


Of course that's not what I meant, and I don't believe I suggested that was the case.

My point is that the Primaris Marines appear to be marketed specifically towards the Wardian brigade. Just because you like them too doesn't tar you with the same childish brush. Actually, my specific point is that I don't believe they will give the Primaris Marines any form of narrative edge or nuance to them at all for fear of upsetting the Wardian brigade. That in itself is a bit of

I am curious as to what you like about them though. I don't specifically want to dislike them, I've just yet to find anything about their actual fluff compelling. I'm more than open to having my mind changed. Just a preface to that if you fancy helping me out with that, I've already had a discussion with another dakkanaut of the 'you need a bit of noblebright to contrast the grimdark' disposition, which I personally believe is bunk.

Edit: I just want to say that this is in no way a criticism of the writers. I think they tend to get a lot of flak for new fluff developments when they're probably beholden to a number of things, one of which is market forces. They've got to appeal to a ton of different potential customers, which inevitably means disappointing some people because it's fantastically difficult to write something that appeals to both the noblebright and grimdark brigade. As a staunch member of the grimdark brigade, I just hope they make something bad happen with the Primaris dudes. I'll feel a lot better if that happened oh, and make the Eldar stab the Imperium in the back while we're at it. They're malicious manipulative xenos and people might be mistaken for thinking they're allies...


People that have read the Dark Imperium book have been repeatedly saying that the Primaris showing up isn't a sudden Noblebright change to 40k, I would argue that the appearance of Primaris Marines never equated to that in the first place. It's always seemed like one last attempt to hold back the dark rather than a sudden "We're winning at everything, nothing more to worry about ever."


Agreed, and that's in general made me a lot happier about them. Overall, I'm happy with the state of the galaxy. It feels pretty fethed up to me which is right where it's supposed to be, and there's some truly excellent narrative potential created in the recent fluff.

It's more that there is so much potential for making Primaris Marines really, really cool to folks like me who like a bit of grittyness and grimdark. As it stands they have the whiff of Mary Sue about them.

Think about it. If the Primaris Marines were someone's homebrew chapter they'd be hung from the rooftops as a textbook example of Mary Suedom.

Homebrewer: Well, they're like normal Marines but they're stronger and faster
Dakka: Ok, that's a basic start I suppose, what else?
Homebrewer: Well, they've also got all of this special gear that's been developed specially for them on Mars. Bolters with more range and shots, that kind of stuff
Dakka: ...ok...
Homebrewer: Oh, and they're made up of all kinds of geneseed, but the Tech Priest that made them (on Guilliman's orders) has fixed all of the genetic flaws in Blood Angels and Space Wolves geneseed
Dakka: ...
Homebrewer: Oh, and they're also more resistant to Chaos than normal Marines
Dakka: ...
Homebrewer: Lastly, they've saved the Imperium from the brink of destruction from a chaos invasion
Dakka: Right. All the traits of your chapter are benefits, and none of them drawbacks. To make it fit into the feel of 40k, you should add in a boatload of flaws to counteract all of those benefits, or tone down the Mary Sue to less ridiculous levels. If you want those benefits, I'd definitely say you should either make the geneseed really unstable and/or make them rather susceptible to Chaos. You very rarely get anything for free in the 40k universe.


 John Prins wrote:
 Ynneadwraith wrote:
To be blunt about it, the new Primaris fluff just isn't as nuanced, well crafted, inspiring or interesting as the Astartes fluff.


Much as I like 40k, I would never make this statement about 40k fluff. 40k is over the top cheese. Everything is dialed up to 11 and the words 'nuanced, well crafted and inspiring' are nowhere to be found. I'd rather use 'exaggerated, rough-hewn and melodramatic', because that fits 40k so much better. 40k is a space fantasy soap opera about people shooting other people in the face while literal deus ex machinas pop out of the woodwork to close plot holes and rip open entirely new plot holes, on the new ones have spikes and teeth and extra long gun barrels this time so you know it's serious.


I suppose it could be from which angle we've approached 40k. It was the (maybe 2nd ed, 3rd maybe?) Eldar fluff that got me into 40k all those years ago, and I still hold it's one of the best crafted pieces of fantasy worldbuilding I've come across. The further you look into it, the more and more opens up to you. The relationship between the Eldar and Slaanesh just has oodles of depth, from the lengths they've gone to to avoid her predations, to the fact that both the Craftworlders (constantly dedicated to perfection) and the Dark Eldar (depraved and decadent) are in all likelihood feeding Slaanesh all the while believing they're cheating Her out of what she wants, which in itself fits the Eldar's utterly arrogant worldview down to a tee.

You can still have your big blustery over-the-top Deus Ex Machina vs brand new gribblies+1 stuff too. It's nice when they throw in a bit of dark humour into stuff, which was one of the best things about the R/T era. However, I do really want there to be something with some sort of depth behind it. Something where you can chuckle at the ridiculousness of it, but then someone points out connections between subtle hints in the fluff and your mind is blown by the intricacy of the imagination behind it.

It was always that that kept me coming back to 40k, and I'm sure it's the case for others too. Plenty of other IPs offer over-the-top cheese dialled up to 11 space opera. It's genuinely rare that I've come across something has that as a thin film over the top of truly oceanic depths of imagination.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

Not entirely. There had been a unit in the IG codex called Storm Troopers. They never before existed as an entirely seperate army and organisation.


Wrong. They just switched books from Codex: Inquisition to Codex: Imperial Guard (I will not use GWs new BS name for them)


Additionally, the split-off of Militarum Tempestus (the Latin-nized version of the old storm troopers) was just a gimmick to produce a new army without adding additional kits. It was the predecessor to the Skitarii/Ad Mech books, where GW realized they could continue to fracture armies and people would still buy the books (or at least they've come to the realization that doing this was alienating a lot of customers).
   
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GodDamUser wrote:
 Nerak wrote:
Second was during the release of the Imperial knights. The feeling never really went away in either case tbh. I still hate knights. Mostly for their fluff not making any sense.


What is your issue with Knights fluff?

do note.. Imperial Knights have been around since Epic, they only recently made an appearance in 40k

Yeah I know. Back then I assumed they where part of the Titan legions. Turns out they weren't so I assumed it was just nobility mucking about (like the old Necromunda spire gangs). Turns out it's not but a sort of sovereign state that's been around in the Imperium since the Heresy. Not a part of any of the adeptus and not part of any Imperial organisations other then lose ties with the mechanicus and navy, operating on a kind of honor code. With a war machine that probably wouldn't be difficult to replicate, given that it's been found seperatly on hundreds of unrelated worlds. A machine that was originally a labour tool refitted as a war machine with the single quirk of having an insane pilot. Why would you not mass produce said machine and give it to the guards? Or to, you know, Space marines? The one organisation that has a machine for the exact purpose of putting a single individual into a war machine (the dreadnought). Re-fitt the sarcophogus to an Imperial knight couldn't possibly be an impossible task. There's no reason the lose ties to the mechanicus should make such a wide spread STC design monopolised by various noble families. Hell, they're even an exluscion from Imperial law, much like Space marines are. They just do less. With regular humans.

Sorry about the off topic rant. Knights just simply do not make sense to me. Given that they've been around approximately 15.000 years, are widespread around the Imperium and that there's virtually no reason not to use them (given their obvious effectivness) I just simply see them as a warmachine inspired poorly thought through model cash in.

Edit: why would you not give the original astartes legions knights? They are much older then the crusades and would have been usefull. Not that they needed it.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/16 22:04:19


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
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I just want to comment on the OP's take on AoS fluff; it is far from what you suggest. Stormcast are front and center, but then in 40k Marines are front and center so that wouldn't be a change. The old Empire (human) army is still around and very prominent in the fluff; they are as important as guard are in 40k. The writing quality recovered from it's initial one-dimension quickly and the current story has the level of nuance & interaction one would expect. In particular, the Stormcast don't always win. The last campaign book included three major Stormcast campaigns of which they lost two, and has sidenotes of others that they also lost.

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PPC points are easily swapped out with those of Matched Play and include all models, unit upgrades, battalions, and terrain warscrolls!

Check it out at: http://ageofwargamers.blogspot.com/ 
   
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 Nerak wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
 Nerak wrote:
Second was during the release of the Imperial knights. The feeling never really went away in either case tbh. I still hate knights. Mostly for their fluff not making any sense.


What is your issue with Knights fluff?

do note.. Imperial Knights have been around since Epic, they only recently made an appearance in 40k

Yeah I know. Back then I assumed they where part of the Titan legions. Turns out they weren't so I assumed it was just nobility mucking about (like the old Necromunda spire gangs). Turns out it's not but a sort of sovereign state that's been around in the Imperium since the Heresy. Not a part of any of the adeptus and not part of any Imperial organisations other then lose ties with the mechanicus and navy, operating on a kind of honor code. With a war machine that probably wouldn't be difficult to replicate, given that it's been found seperatly on hundreds of unrelated worlds. A machine that was originally a labour tool refitted as a war machine with the single quirk of having an insane pilot. Why would you not mass produce said machine and give it to the guards? Or to, you know, Space marines? The one organisation that has a machine for the exact purpose of putting a single individual into a war machine (the dreadnought). Re-fitt the sarcophogus to an Imperial knight couldn't possibly be an impossible task. There's no reason the lose ties to the mechanicus should make such a wide spread STC design monopolised by various noble families. Hell, they're even an exluscion from Imperial law, much like Space marines are. They just do less. With regular humans.

Sorry about the off topic rant. Knights just simply do not make sense to me. Given that they've been around approximately 15.000 years, are widespread around the Imperium and that there's virtually no reason not to use them (given their obvious effectivness) I just simply see them as a warmachine inspired poorly thought through model cash in.

Edit: why would you not give the original astartes legions knights? They are much older then the crusades and would have been usefull. Not that they needed it.


The same reason the Imperial Guard don't get Rhinos. The same reason only a few planets are permitted to build Baneblades despite it being an STC construct which could be produced by the entire Imperium if the AM would get their mechandrites out of their collective asses.

Because the Imperium of Man (and its subsidiary organizations) is a bureaucratic and feudal theocracy of fanatical luddites.
   
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 argonak wrote:
Because the Imperium of Man (and its subsidiary organizations) is a bureaucratic and feudal theocracy of fanatical luddites.


pretty much that.

But the Knight households originated on Mars and many did colonise the stars as with much of humanity in the Period before the Dark Age of Technology

The Knights have always had close ties with the mechanicum, as they were originally the protectors of the Forges
   
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 Nerak wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
 Nerak wrote:
Second was during the release of the Imperial knights. The feeling never really went away in either case tbh. I still hate knights. Mostly for their fluff not making any sense.


What is your issue with Knights fluff?

do note.. Imperial Knights have been around since Epic, they only recently made an appearance in 40k

Yeah I know. Back then I assumed they where part of the Titan legions. Turns out they weren't so I assumed it was just nobility mucking about (like the old Necromunda spire gangs). Turns out it's not but a sort of sovereign state that's been around in the Imperium since the Heresy. Not a part of any of the adeptus and not part of any Imperial organisations other then lose ties with the mechanicus and navy, operating on a kind of honor code. With a war machine that probably wouldn't be difficult to replicate, given that it's been found seperatly on hundreds of unrelated worlds. A machine that was originally a labour tool refitted as a war machine with the single quirk of having an insane pilot. Why would you not mass produce said machine and give it to the guards? Or to, you know, Space marines? The one organisation that has a machine for the exact purpose of putting a single individual into a war machine (the dreadnought). Re-fitt the sarcophogus to an Imperial knight couldn't possibly be an impossible task. There's no reason the lose ties to the mechanicus should make such a wide spread STC design monopolised by various noble families. Hell, they're even an exluscion from Imperial law, much like Space marines are. They just do less. With regular humans.

Sorry about the off topic rant. Knights just simply do not make sense to me. Given that they've been around approximately 15.000 years, are widespread around the Imperium and that there's virtually no reason not to use them (given their obvious effectivness) I just simply see them as a warmachine inspired poorly thought through model cash in.

Edit: why would you not give the original astartes legions knights? They are much older then the crusades and would have been usefull. Not that they needed it.


Same reason marines don't get their own titans... compartmentalization of power. The imperium is always afraid of giving any one armed force too much autonomy or ability to do multiple things, they rely on a checks and balance type system to prevent the HH from happening again. Same reason IG don't get interstellar space ships, or the Imlerial Navy don't get ground troops. It's so if any one group rebels they can only really do one thing well, and the combined other forces can destroy them.

“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors 
   
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This all just reminds me very much of the switchover from the beaky marines to ventilator grille (stormtrooper? Mk VII?) helmet way back in the day, along with the swap out of the old Land Raider and Rhino frame.

I just have the strong feeling that a year or two down the road, as GW introduces new Primaris kits we'll hit a point where the "regular" marine line will just be discontinued and the new Primaris will be the default standard marine from there on out.

I mean, it's not like the boxed set came with a mix of regular marine and Primaris marine. I see that as the beginnings of the standard marines on the way out.

I just hope they take the Centurions with them when they leave. (It's not the models themselves I have issues with, it that's they are essentially a replacement for Terminators, instead of fixing the issues with Terminators, at a ridiculous $$$ cost).

It never ends well 
   
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well at least 8th edition finally made terminators "not complete crap"

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The reason no force isn't given more warmachines, like Space ships for instance, is because of what Horus did with it during the Heresy. During 30k ships, titans and so on where straight up part of the SM legions. Look at Pertubraro and the Iron warriors, he's frequently mentioned as being in direct command of Titans. This was bannad after the Heresy to ensure that no single Imperial organisation body would be able to wreck the havoc Horus did if they where to turn traitor. This does not explain however why there where seemingly no knights part of the original crusades.

What makes the knights unique is that they're crewed by a single individual. Like the dreadnoughts, but bigger, stronger and more versitile. I can see it not being given to the IG, since they're supposed to be kept as reasource effecient as possible, but surely the Astartes, Inquisition or deathwatch should have them available? Or the SoB, the one organisation with the reasources to field vast ammounts of power armoured Troops. Titans and super heavy veichles have big crews in them, which is a limiting factor for the Astartes, but the knights do not have that limitation.

Also if beuarocracy is what's holding it back then why wouldn't the Imperial knight nobles that do service in the Inquisition or the Imperial Guard have brought knights to theese organisations? I realise it's similar to "why doesn't the Imperial Guard use power armour" but that one I can understand. This one I can't.

Edit: Oh and the reason the IG doesn't get the rhino is because it's more expensive and more difficult to keep running. The Chimera and Russ (upon which chassis most tanks are based on) are both very easy to keep running through bad terrain and malfunctions with minimum knowledge of it's workings. How did the saying go... "A Leman russ can run on shoes and bad language" I think.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 12:08:41


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
 
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