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With so much possibility to have re-rolls of 1 IS there ANY reason not to take and overcharge Plasma weapons?


Gear and situation (optimal for each unit)

Scions (4 Plasma, ordered to rapid fire)

Chosen 5 Plasma, Rapid fire

Marines Bolters, Rapid fire

Terminators Storm Bolters Rapid fire, Assault Cannon

Unit; Point cost; Shooting vs T3 Save 4+; Shooting vs Marines; Shooting vs Terminators

Scions 64 4.43 3.72 2.92

Chosen 147 5.544 4.65696 3.65904

Tactical Marines 130 4.356 2.244 1.056

Terminators 261 6.278976 3.520176 2.1516


^ Those are average unsaved wound numbers

Even an overpriced unit like Chosen, can cripple or destroy a unit of Termies in 1 go and becomes somewhat even to basic tactical marines


Termies still suck big time, maybe even more than in 7th

Scion command squads are 9ppm, and the plasma gun is 7pts, so that's 64pts for 4 models.
And you can't order them to rapide fire 2 their plasma guns, it only works on lasguns/hot shot lasguns. Rerolling ones in the best order, but then you have to count the point cost of a tempestor prime (really not worth it just to reroll ones).

Plasma is looking pretty good in this edition. SM Devastators can add +1 to hit for 1 member so you can have at least 1 Plasma Cannon that is guaranteed not to overheat. Combine it with the Cherub and it can fire twice and get the +1 to hit on both shots.

Where plasma falls down slightly is against vehicles. Plasma only does 2 damage, even when overcharged and it will take a lot of shots to plink a Rhino to death with it, never mind a Land Raider.

You could also argue that a Marine player who teleports his Terminators in front of a massed plasma squad deserves to get his eyebrows singed. :p

Maybe I remember wrong from other editions, but didn't plasma use to be already the bane of Terminators? I usually used it in that way, at least.

fresus wrote:
Scion command squads are 9ppm, and the plasma gun is 7pts, so that's 64pts for 4 models.
And you can't order them to rapide fire 2 their plasma guns, it only works on lasguns/hot shot lasguns. Rerolling ones in the best order, but then you have to count the point cost of a tempestor prime (really not worth it just to reroll ones).

Thanks for spotting the errors, I've adjusted the initial post


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DanielFM wrote:
Maybe I remember wrong from other editions, but didn't plasma use to be already the bane of Terminators? I usually used it in that way, at least.

Difference is that they're dirt cheap now on some units, Scions can take it for 7 points, it was 15 in previous edition and Termies themselves, while relative to everything else didn't actually get tougher to kill, they stayed about the same, but now they also cost more.

So basically they increased in price and the weapons that counter them decreased in price, making them overall an even worse point investment than before


Maybe they're worth something in extremely large scale battles, but my local club plays mostly 1000 point battles, so 2 five man squads would make up half the point cost of that army, that's a pathetic amount of firepower at only semi decent survivability for such an investment, you could take 2 Biker squad and 2 Devastator squads for the same points, bringing more mobility, firepower and consistent survivability

You are comparing terminators to 7th.
Bad idea.
Everything dies a lot quicker now, terminators included. Doesn't make them bad.

Multi-wound infantry and bikes seem generally overcosted to me this edition. Their prices seem to assume that you're only ever shooting them with single-damage weapons. They're sort of perversely designed because usually they have good armor as well -- you already want to use a high-powered weapon to deny them their save, and lots of those don't care that they have multiple wounds. I'm not sure that such models are generally worth taking unless they come with a significant invulnerable save, at least 4++ for 2 wounds and 3++ for 3.

Meanwhile there's basically no gun that efficiently deals with light infantry. A bolter kills more points of Marines than points of Guardsmen.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Multi-wound infantry and bikes seem generally overcosted to me this edition. Their prices seem to assume that you're only ever shooting them with single-damage weapons. They're sort of perversely designed because usually they have good armor as well -- you already want to use a high-powered weapon to deny them their save, and lots of those don't care that they have multiple wounds. I'm not sure that such models are generally worth taking unless they come with a significant invulnerable save, at least 4++ for 2 wounds and 3++ for 3.

Meanwhile there's basically no gun that efficiently deals with light infantry. A bolter kills more points of Marines than points of Guardsmen.

As the saying in Imperium goes - "if guardsmen can't kill it, you're not throwing enough guardsmen at it"

Yeah this edition empowers the little guy!


It holds true in this edition, points wise there's very little horde infantry can't kill, even things designed to kill them are only half decent at the job

Though if you can eliminate characters, there's some nasty FEAR based armies, that could wipe the floor with all those guardsmen, Chaos can stack -4 Leadership without even killing anyone, so without characters they'd be running away from simply standing near Chaos


As for Bikers - I was surprised at their cost increase at first, but then you have to take into account you can shoot ALL of your weapons or pistols now, even as an infantry, so bikers now have a bit more shots, in rapid fire range they have 12 bolter shots, you can add 2 more bolter shots and 6 plasma shots on top of that and they'd cost the same as 10 Marines + 1 special weapon, being more shooty and mobile, while having less durability


Basically bikers are in a pretty good place now, could have 2 wounds instead of T5 though

 Dovis wrote:



Basically bikers are in a pretty good place now, could have 2 wounds instead of T5 though

Bikes do have 2 wounds now, on top of T5. Characters on bikes also benefit from the +1W. At least, this holds true for SM and CSM, haven't checked Orks and Eldar...

Bikers have 2W...
ack, ninja'd

They are a bit expensive, but 14" move, being able to fire both weapons, T5 2W... probably still decent. No jink any more though

Dionysodorus wrote:
Multi-wound infantry and bikes seem generally overcosted to me this edition. Their prices seem to assume that you're only ever shooting them with single-damage weapons. They're sort of perversely designed because usually they have good armor as well -- you already want to use a high-powered weapon to deny them their save, and lots of those don't care that they have multiple wounds. I'm not sure that such models are generally worth taking unless they come with a significant invulnerable save, at least 4++ for 2 wounds and 3++ for 3.

Meanwhile there's basically no gun that efficiently deals with light infantry. A bolter kills more points of Marines than points of Guardsmen.

That's a good point. It would have been nifty to have Flamers have a secondary profile like Plasma does, something like a larger arc flaming, where the strength goes down, it doesn't have any -AP and the hits go up to say 2D6, but restrict it to targeting only units of more than 10 people.

Snugiraffe wrote:

 Dovis wrote:



Basically bikers are in a pretty good place now, could have 2 wounds instead of T5 though

Bikes do have 2 wounds now, on top of T5. Characters on bikes also benefit from the +1W. At least, this holds true for SM and CSM, haven't checked Orks and Eldar...

Damn, another oversight on my part

Well, then they're surely better than plain Marines, 3 Bikers can take about as much as 10 plain Marines depending on what is thrown at them, but they're faster and shootier

Scout Bikers are pretty brutal. Give them Grenade Launchers and they now move and advance, can shoot their grenade Launchers AND shotguns at 4+

Plus the shotguns are S5 if you get to 9". They will probably die afterwards but a turn one alpha shot on some guard heavy Weapon squads seems legit.

Did you factor in that those supercharged plasmas will also kill the users in 16.6666% of the time?

So your chosen and scions are both likely to lose 1 model in the first turn and 1 in the second. 3rd, only the chosen are averaged to just plain lose a model, but aggregating those averages and the spill-over in the averages both units would be gone after 3rd turn's shots.

Rise? Plasma has been the special weapon of choice for 18 years.

Yeah after a few games with them i can say that they are not OP super amazaballs. but they definitely have uses as anti infantry no issue.

it really helps counter cover saves which is big and will be a big part of the game.

im finding that its not worth over charging. (at least i find my self killing my own dudes more then theirs

Plasma has encounter his niche has a special weapon designed to kill multiwound heavy infantry, but is ineffective again'st vehicles.

And I don't know you, but my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights are more powerfull than ever.
Yesterday my unit of 5 Deathwing Knights destroyed in meele a unit of 40 Conscripts in one round of combat thanks to battleshock (I killed the comissar with a squad of Sniper Scouts)

 Galas wrote:
Plasma has encounter his niche has a special weapon designed to kill multiwound heavy infantry, but is ineffective again'st vehicles.

And I don't know you, but my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights are more powerfull than ever.
Yesterday my unit of 5 Deathwing Knights destroyed in meele a unit of 40 Conscripts in one round of combat thanks to battleshock (I killed the comissar with a squad of Sniper Scouts)

Makes me want to take sniper scouts even more.

also awesome.

 Galas wrote:
Plasma has encounter his niche has a special weapon designed to kill multiwound heavy infantry, but is ineffective again'st vehicles.

And I don't know you, but my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights are more powerfull than ever.
Yesterday my unit of 5 Deathwing Knights destroyed in meele a unit of 40 Conscripts in one round of combat thanks to battleshock (I killed the comissar with a squad of Sniper Scouts)

Especially with that Flail being able to carry over wounds AoS style - that's awesome, and the only weapon I've seen that does that. I've had the pleasure of playing my first 8th Ed game against Deathwing, and they are awesome - even viable. When have you ever been able to say that about Termies in recent memory?

 Galas wrote:
Plasma has encounter his niche has a special weapon designed to kill multiwound heavy infantry, but is ineffective again'st vehicles.

And I don't know you, but my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights are more powerfull than ever.
Yesterday my unit of 5 Deathwing Knights destroyed in meele a unit of 40 Conscripts in one round of combat thanks to battleshock (I killed the comissar with a squad of Sniper Scouts)

It's very effective against vehicles though. Overcharge wounds most vehicals on a 3+ and it has -3 ap - so most vehicals looking at a 6+ save. Each wound carries auto 2 damage. So 4 Wounds to kill a dread compared to an average of 3 wounds from a las cannon to do the job. The Las cannon is better at killing tanks but it's not much better. Especially if we are talking plasma cannons which have D3 shots. The PC I think is even better vs t6-7 vehicles.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Plasma has encounter his niche has a special weapon designed to kill multiwound heavy infantry, but is ineffective again'st vehicles.

And I don't know you, but my Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights are more powerfull than ever.
Yesterday my unit of 5 Deathwing Knights destroyed in meele a unit of 40 Conscripts in one round of combat thanks to battleshock (I killed the comissar with a squad of Sniper Scouts)

It's very effective against vehicles though. Overcharge wounds most vehicals on a 3+ and it has -3 ap - so most vehicals looking at a 6+ save. Each wound carries auto 2 damage. So 4 Wounds to kill a dread compared to an average of 3 wounds from a las cannon to do the job. The Las cannon is better at killing tanks but it's not much better. Especially if we are talking plasma cannons which have D3 shots. The PC I think is even better vs t6-7 vehicles.

at least the las cannon wont kill your own dood

its a risk thing and i think thats good.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Did you factor in that those supercharged plasmas will also kill the users in 16.6666% of the time?

So your chosen and scions are both likely to lose 1 model in the first turn and 1 in the second. 3rd, only the chosen are averaged to just plain lose a model, but aggregating those averages and the spill-over in the averages both units would be gone after 3rd turn's shots.

Ad reroll 1's into the equation (which is basically everywhere) and that 16% becomes 3% chance. Some units will die - no doubt. There is a lot of ways to mitigate the risk to double your damage output. It's worth it as long as you can reroll 1's.

 Dovis wrote:
...Termies still suck big time, maybe even more than in 7th

I don't agree. 2+ saves are a lot harder to just up and ignore, cover actually interacting with the save is a huge improvement, extra storm bolter shots and S4 doing more things makes them a lot more useful at range, new Deep Strike is pretty useful, free split-fire/shoot one thing and charge another is a godsend for expensive elite generalist squads...I'd call Terminators now worth about 1.5-2x what they were before (less in firepower, more in mobility/durability) at a 20% price jump.

Now basic Marine Terminators still suffer from mandatory powerfists and a 48pt price tag; Chaos/Space Wolf 38pt power-weapon Terminators are still significantly more useful. And they do sort of pale before the hilariousness that is the Scarab Occult at 40pts/model (yes, yes, mandatory 25pt Sorcerer...) with -2AP bolters and a 1+ save against a lot of things from All Is Dust. Or Grey Knight Terminators, who take an Assault Terminator's twin-lightning-claw loadout (better for dispatching more targets since you get three Attacks), add d3 damage to it to better dispatch large targets, then bring the storm bolter from the tactical Terminators back to make the most generalist of all the generalists, with Hammerhand to let them compete with power fists against big things, access to the Paladin banner bubble to up them to four attacks, and a startlingly reasonable 46pt price tag for all that.

(Yes, Take the falchions. S4 is mitigatable by Hammerhand, AP-3 isn't that much of an upgrade over AP-2, and you've got three Attacks out of the deal.)

Plasma is my go to weapon a lot of the time even back when double tapping a Plasma Gun exploded on a 1 or 2 and yes you can make armies, not just TEQs just melt in front of your face. They are not as good vs Vehicles as they were at one point, but they are not the end of the world anymore for Terminators as you have to turn on 'Not-So-Safe' mode to kill TEQs.

Terminators are a scary unit once more, don't know what your on about.

I run a deathwing army, I'm dropping around 13 deathwing terminators and 5 deathwing Knights 9 inches away from you. I get to rapid fire all my weapons and because of a deathwing ancient, I get to retool all to hit rolls, so effectively twinlinked. That's going to be detrimental to anything with out a 3+, then I'm going to try and make charges. On top of that all, no scatter.

As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

But a lot of those 2 damage weapons also cost a bit or come with downsides.

it seems like a wash.

Yeah I'm starting to think the same in terms of multi wound not meaning a lot with so much variable damage output weaponry. Speed certainly is still a factor that makes bikes worth taking in the right context, but slow models with a couple wounds don't seem like great investments unless they can deep strike.

Everyone keeps forgetting, no scatter deep strike, and a charge from deep strike, there is a reason not many armies could do it. Just imagine for a moment, turn one chargerd by th/ss terminators striking first at a unit.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
As noted 2-wound models seem to be pretty overcosted this edition. Having an extra wound really doesn't mean a whole lot this edition because so many weapons do multiple wounds per failed save now. Also, the 2+sv has never been so weak. I generally like the rend system but many weapons that would bounce right off of terminators in the past, like ap3 weapons, are now serious threats.

I refer you to 3rd edition where coming off of the high of a 3+ save on 2d6, terminators went to a straight 2+ (no invuln mind you) in a game where "power weapons" ignored it completely.

THAT was weak!

8th is looking just fine for the 2+