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I have been trying to find the best CSM and CD HQ's in this new edition. Here's a bit of what I found so far:

CSM Daemonprinces are good for casting warptime and are relatively cheap with a 2+ rerollable in CC and Shooting. Being able to hide is a great buff as well, but imo they just don't pack enough of a punch. Wounding Rhino's on 4's is quite suboptimal. They also fall flat in the face of anything with a 3++ or 4++.

Belakor is fun and can hude, but strangely he cannot cast Warptime on himself (he sure can save it for the Brass Scorpion though!)

I've been looking through the Forgeworld options at HQ but again none of them pass the Rhino test of reliable - fast - Strength 8 in CC.

Anyone have some suggestions??

When you used the Daemon Princes, did you give them 2 sets of Malefic Claws? Because there was someone earlier posting about a 10 Daemon Prince army that seemed like it would wreck face.

Here's what I found with a quick search:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/727803.page#9433383

The princes, before taking wounds will be throwing this per round
70 STR 7, AP-2, Dmg 2 attacks. They are hitting 35/36 of the time...On top of that, the DPs are dealing ~20 mortal wounds a round...What makes the DPs nasty is they are hard to hurt. Their resilience per point (RPP) values are off the hook. Vs bolters they are a 0.8866995074 where even 4 point guard are a 1.176470588. That, combined with the small footprint and mobility make for a very nice package.

If you want str 8 in CC take a chump with a power fist and throw him in.

Lord on a bike with a fist is gonna run a lil pricey tho. Personally I think our big winners are

1. Daemon Princes with claws - 7 attacks, you can hide them (or not depending on which index), and they can be buffed by nearby (appropriate) heralds
2. Heralds - they're dirt cheap and buff nearby units and can even touch units in CSM that have the daemon and same-god tag
3. Magnus - is apparently a god among single units, but can still be shot off the board in a single turn vs dedicated high damage shooting
4. Dark Apostles - if you can find a way to deliver this guy, he's awesome for his points cost. Throw him in with Khorne Zerkers or Chosen in a Dreadclaw?
5. Herald of Slaanesh on Exalted Chariot - costs 60 points more than a herlad, moves faster/tougher, a _crapload_ of attacks, and the impact/charge does mortal wounds, and casts powers. This thing is pretty awesome.

I'm sure there's others but I haven't looked at everything with a microscope yet.

Debilitate wrote:
3. Magnus - is apparently a god among single units, but can still be shot off the board in a single turn vs dedicated high damage shooting

Magnus is a beast but you need some other big meanies or more immediate threats as distraction units i.e. Terminators dropping down in your opponants face, Rhinos filled with Bezerkers, other big daemon models, big daemon engines, etc. As with most things in this edition, big hard hitting units need to be fielded in pairs in order to split enemy fire.

I've been having load of fun with "Batmans", which are suicide jump-pack chaos lords that you run solo. 113pts with a powerfist, and they're fantastic secondary HQs. Their goal is to assassinate characters and disrupt backfield shooting units.

Deepstrike them into terrain, out of LOS (easy with 1 model). they're not trying to charge turn 1.
Turn 2, jump out and throw a grenade at something (even frags are awesome with 2+ rerollable BS), then charge something else. Preferably a character that you can punch out with the fist, but they'll also maul gunline infantry pretty good with the chainsword. 5W with a 3+/4++ is surprisingly durable (like deepstriking a 5 man marine squad!), and more often than not, they wont even be the closest enemy unit for a lot of the enemy's shooting, even though they're way out by themselves.

The FW Hellwrights on Aberants are also looking pretty swell. They're fast enough to keep up with most vehicles to repair them, and they have a tremendous ammount of shooting firepower for an HQ.

Speaking of Forge World, Zhufor is pretty good for his price. 150 points for a melee focused terminator lord that can deny a power per turn and makes the morale phase hurt more for nearby enemy units. He dishes out some good damage as well.

Uraka the Warfiend doesn't buff your other units, he buffs HIMSELF when he kills things. He needs to be buffed by other HQs which is kind of odd for an HQ himself...but whatever works. He's certainly not a pushover with a 3+/5++ and 6 attacks on the charge plus a decent short range attack. 170 points.

Samus (HE COMES) Prince of the Ruinstorm is as Khorne as it gets. A decent number of attacks that wound more often on infantry. Psykers nearby minus 1 from their power rolls. Friendly units summoning near him get to reroll the summon. Anything not Khorne near him subtracts 1 from their LD. He's interesting. 220 points.

I haven't really looked over the other HQ's in the FW book being a Khorne player myself.

Kharn is a beast.
Magnus is fantastic.
Heralds are awesome.
Princes(from either section) are great
There are many solid picks

sorcerers in termi armour are not to be sniffed at either

bit of deep strike and combined smite and infernal gaze can really laydown some hurt

Daemons Princes can be buffed by Heralds to give them S8. They don't suddenly become the world's best tank buster, but the extra point of strength does help with 3+ to wound on most tanks. Most armies will be best suited to using CSM daemon princes, but the Khorne CD one gets 9 attacks on the charge at S8, so that's not to be overlooked.

Although not specifically a character, Berserker champions have 3 attacks, S5 base, opportunity to re-roll charges, tonnes of "ablative" wounds to hide behind, no chance of being sniped, and most importantly, the chance to fight twice in a given sub-phase. Because they're not actually characters, your opponent can't allocate to them and you remove whichever models you please. I'll be running Berserker champions with power fists to make use of their S10 and 6 attacks per turn. Definitely advisable to keep a lord/dark apostle around for the re-roll.

EDIT: Just wish that CSM had a ubiquitous melee weapon with a guarenteed 3 damage for infantry. Perhaps an equivalent to the Thunder Hammer or something.

Never use Chaos Demons Demon Prince. CSM and Chaos Demons are the same faction so honestly there was no reason to even print 2 versions with 1 having inferior stats.

 Kirasu wrote:
Never use Chaos Demons Demon Prince. CSM and Chaos Demons are the same faction so honestly there was no reason to even print 2 versions with 1 having inferior stats.

A Nurgle Deamon Deamon Prince could make good use of the extra wounds and Disgustingly Resilient. A Khorne one is better CSM.

You dont need Disgustingly Resilient if you can't be targeted by shooting attacks. 8-9 wounds is pretty much the best place for characters to be.

 Kirasu wrote:
Never use Chaos Demons Demon Prince. CSM and Chaos Demons are the same faction so honestly there was no reason to even print 2 versions with 1 having inferior stats.

there are perks and drawbacks to both.

The CSM prince has slightly better spells. Warptime is amazing. CSM princes can hide, which helps to keep them alive with other units around. The CSM DP has more faction keywords, letting him get perks such as rerolling 1s for invulns from Magnus.

CD princes have more wounds out of the box. They also get the daemon perk for their mark. DR is amazing. 4++ is also good. Going first before other units is good. +1 attack and STR is good.

Both are really awesome, they just serve different roles.

I feel like Abaddon is a monster too, but you don't really hear about him. I guess everyone else is just more fun lmao

I've had some pretty good luck with the LoC so far. I like to think of him as a cheaper Magnus that actually fills an HQ slot. That +2 to your casting roll is fantastic. Run him with a couple max squads of flamers or screamers with Boon of Change could lead to some good moments.

I have yet to try out magnus but his smites look sick.

Magnus is dope. I go back and forth between whether I like a Lord of Change better than Fatey....it's a tough call

 luke1705 wrote:
Magnus is dope. I go back and forth between whether I like a Lord of Change better than Fatey....it's a tough call

See, i just can't get over that 5+ save Fateweaver has. That's quite the drawback I feel for a greater demon. Everything else he's got going for him is great though.

weird, is there a fluff reason fatey does not have ephemeral form!?

As far as I can tell, no. It's not like he ticked off Tzeentch the way Skarbrand ticked off Khorne.

I guess it's just their way of attempting to make him "balanced"?

My only other guess is the fact that each of his heads can look into the past and the future (respectively), but not the present so that gives him a disadvantage in the present?

Or it could just be a typo. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Fateweaver's stuck with a 3+ WS instead of the LOC's 2+ too. No way of knowing if these weaknesses are intended parts of his kit or just the editor goofing up. I don't think any of the other "named version of a generic HQ" models have base stats that are outright worse than the generic version's.

Could be, but until they FAQ it, we're stuck with a WS3, 5++ Fatey. Which imho doesn't make up for an additional psychic power and D3 command points, which overall costs more than the standard LoC...

At that point you're 15 points away from Magnus so you'd be insane not to take him instead unless you really need that HQ slot.

Fateweaver has historically had worse stats than a Lord of Change. Lower WS, lower attacks, lower strength that was previously balanced out by a significant number of extra Psychic Powers and access to a pretty unique re-roll ability. Now that ability is common-place and the Psychic phase is much less dominant.

It's odd that Greater Daemons across the board lost their 4++ save, especially when models like marine Captains/Chaos Lords got it for free in addition to stat buffs. Would quite like to have seen the LoC with a permanent 3++, though I feel he hardly needs it given that it's already one of the game's best MCs.

Anything that boosts their terrible leadership.

Death Guard are only ld 7-8 ffs....

Khorne bloodletters are 7, and different blood.thirster varients are the only way to modify that. ughbbh

For the points you cant beat the Dark Apostle IMO. Last game I played I used him as my Warlord and he sat behind a wall of 60 Cultists to buff their leadership while they held objectives all game. This freed up the majority of my army to rampage around to their hearts content.

If I played a game where the cultist spam needed to run across the board Abaddon would be worth his points to make them immune to leadership checks but I haven't given him a try yet.

This has been a helpful thread to read because I was curious on which HQ's to go with. Right now I'm going with some bog standard Chaos Lords to hide in units of cultist to summon.

I'm wondering, would it be a faux pas to play a Daemon Prince as Be'Lakor? I just can't stand Finecast :\

I'm really interested in the Terminator Sorcerer Lord Kit too.

TBH I think that Fatey losing Ephemeral Form is a typo. But yeah will need an FAQ

Asura Varuna wrote:
Fateweaver has historically had worse stats than a Lord of Change. Lower WS, lower attacks, lower strength that was previously balanced out by a significant number of extra Psychic Powers and access to a pretty unique re-roll ability. Now that ability is common-place and the Psychic phase is much less dominant.

It's odd that Greater Daemons across the board lost their 4++ save, especially when models like marine Captains/Chaos Lords got it for free in addition to stat buffs. Would quite like to have seen the LoC with a permanent 3++, though I feel he hardly needs it given that it's already one of the game's best MCs.

Greater daemons haven't had 4++ since 5ed

Asura Varuna wrote:
Fateweaver has historically had worse stats than a Lord of Change. Lower WS, lower attacks, lower strength that was previously balanced out by a significant number of extra Psychic Powers and access to a pretty unique re-roll ability. Now that ability is common-place and the Psychic phase is much less dominant.

It's odd that Greater Daemons across the board lost their 4++ save, especially when models like marine Captains/Chaos Lords got it for free in addition to stat buffs. Would quite like to have seen the LoC with a permanent 3++, though I feel he hardly needs it given that it's already one of the game's best MCs.

Ah, if there's precedence for it I can accept the WS discrepancy then. I played Necrons previously so my Tzeentch knowledge is pretty much all 8th edition.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
Fateweaver has historically had worse stats than a Lord of Change. Lower WS, lower attacks, lower strength that was previously balanced out by a significant number of extra Psychic Powers and access to a pretty unique re-roll ability. Now that ability is common-place and the Psychic phase is much less dominant.

It's odd that Greater Daemons across the board lost their 4++ save, especially when models like marine Captains/Chaos Lords got it for free in addition to stat buffs. Would quite like to have seen the LoC with a permanent 3++, though I feel he hardly needs it given that it's already one of the game's best MCs.

Greater daemons haven't had 4++ since 5ed

Fateweaver had a 4++ the entire last book, so 6th and 7th edition?