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Wierd rules thing popped up and I think I played it right.

Harpy charged into combat with a knight. Combat went brutally and both were left with one wound after his fight phase.

In my movement phase I chose to not move the Harpy. That killed it and triggered death throes. I rolled a 4 so used a reroll and got a 6 and killed his knight.

This lead to a few rules arguments.

1) If the moving my flyer was manditory or optional.

2) If 6 on death throes is considered a failure or a success for getting a reroll.

I'm not sure this is covered in the rules or the FAQ - but I believe the dice should for explosions should be rolled by the owner of the model and in that case could be rerolled by the owner of the model with a command point.

The movement of flyers is not optional. You will see the movement min and max when it is displayed on the data sheet. For example 20"-45" that means 20 min - 45 max.

Right. That's what killed my Harpy.

However I was in CC and chose to not fall back. As I did not fall back I was unable to move and died.

I'm no rules lawyer, but I believe you are violating the spirit and letter of the rules. You cannot choose to not do a mandatory action.

Justyn wrote:
I'm no rules lawyer, but I believe you are violating the spirit and letter of the rules. You cannot choose to not do a mandatory action.

I'm doing niether.

I can charge a flyer into CC.

Fly LETS me leave combat. It is not manditory that I fall back.

If I do not fall back I can not move.

If I can not move the minimum distance the unit dies.


None of those violates the letter or the spirit of the rules. If I choose to kill my unit in exchange for a chance to hurt yours then that is both fluffy and completely legal.

I think you're mixing it up. In the Movement rules it says units with a minimum move MUST move at least the minimum, while under Falling Back it says units within 1" of enemy models may remain stationary. I think most people are going to think the "must move" will override the "may stay."

You are allowed to not leave combat.

You are forced to move a minimum distance due to the rules.

It could probably use some clearing up, but the movement is mandatory, staying in combat is not, so you have to leave combat.

As far as the reroll, the CP reroll doesn't require it to be a "failure," just says you can reroll any one die.

Your combining rules in a way that does not exist.

At start of movement phase units within 1" may choose to remain in combat or fall back. If they remain in combat they can not move.

And

At the end of the movement phase check to see if flyers have moved the minimum distance required. If not they must move that minimum distance. If they are not able to then they are destroyed.

The only note on falling back about flyers us that if they fall back they can still shoot. If your reading was either RAW or RAI it would also say " flyers with a minimum move distance must fall back"

'Must' overrides 'can'. Therefore this...

Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary...

Is overridden by this...

The first is the model’s minimum speed – in the Movement phase, all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least that far from where they started.

 Gloomfang wrote:


The only note on falling back about flyers us that if they fall back they can still shoot. If your reading was either RAW or RAI it would also say " flyers with a minimum move distance must fall back"

If your reading was either RAW or RAI it would also say "Flyers may choose not to move if they are within 1" of an enemy model."

See how that works, we can both do it! As it stands though, you're told generally that models can stay within 1" of an enemy, but you're also told that your flyer with a minimum move HAS to move if possible.

Basically we're all wondering how you think you can choose to remain in combat if you HAVE to move.

I agree with the interpretation that allows what OP did.

MINIMUM MOVE SECTION
"Some models that can FLY have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. The first is the model's minimum speed - in the Movement phase, all parts of the model's base must end the move at least that far from where they started."

MINIMUM MOVE SECTION
"If a model cannot make its minimum move, or is forced to move off the battlefield because of its minimum speed, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield"

FALLING BACK SECTION
"Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or Fall Back."

I'm reading this as the player having an option to Fall Back or remain stationary, with the understanding that if they choose to remain stationary, the model won't be able to make its minimum move and will be destroyed as part of it's Movement phase 'activation'. It can potentially be a sound tactic, although I think most people would prefer to live to fight another day and would simply Fall Back.

Conceptually, this is a fighter jet pulling a kamikaze move and crashing into its target or a flying monster flailing about and trying to get one last attack in before falling out of the sky. I see no problem with this.

Death Throes, and similar abilities, only trigger when the model is reduced to 0 wounds. A model that is unable to move it's minimum distance is destroyed and removed from play, but it's technically never reduced to 0 wounds.

Whether or not the flyer can choose not to Fall Back is irrelevant; Death Throes should not have triggered.

That does sound like a fun tactic..

But as Avadar said.. Destroyed technically isn't reduced to 0 wounds

Agreed that you have the choice whether to fall back or not. If you choose not to fall back then you're not allowed to move. If you're not allowed to move then you cannot complete the minimum move required and the model is destroyed.

Also agree with the last few posters that Death Throes would not occur here, as the model was not reduced to 0 wounds.

I don't think the rules allow you to make a choice in a 'must' scenario. Does choosing not to fall back = cannot make its minimum move?

I would assume that it CAN make its minimum move with Fallback so the choice is an invalid one.

1. Can you make minimum move?
2. Yes because of fallback rule
3. Make move

I think the Fly minimum move overules the choice to fallback or not. Now if the fallback move is not enough to cover the minimum move it is destroyed.

 Nithaniel wrote:
I don't think the rules allow you to make a choice in a 'must' scenario. Does choosing not to fall back = cannot make its minimum move?

I would assume that it CAN make its minimum move with Fallback so the choice is an invalid one.

1. Can you make minimum move?
2. Yes because of fallback rule
3. Make move

I think the Fly minimum move overules the choice to fallback or not. Now if the fallback move is not enough to cover the minimum move it is destroyed.

I read it like this as well. Fallback seems entirely optional and minimum move specifically states "cannot make". Well it CAN make a minimum move, by falling back.

Agree with Avadar that you have the choice to move or not, but Death Throes wouldn't trigger.