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2017/06/29 15:11:53
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
For example (since I'm a Tau player), the Index states that XV25 Stealth Battlesuits cost X power and Y points. It also states that the Y points per model does not include wargear or drones, which is fair enough.
Next, before the "Weapons", "Wargear Options", "Abilities", "Faction Keywords", and "Keywords" sections, it states that "each Stealth Shas'ui and Stealth Shas'vre is equipped with a burst cannon". It also reveals that each burst cannon is worth Z points.
So my question is does each stock XV25 Stealth Battlesuit cost Y points, with the burst cannon inclusive, or does each stock XV25 Stealth Battlesuit cost Y points for each model + Z points for each stock burst cannon?
My answer is Y points, with the burst cannon inclusive for the following reasons:
1) The burst cannon is not listed as "wargear" and therefore does not count towards the "does not include wargear or drones" sentence
2) The burst cannon counts as "weapons", not wargear, and the points cost is before "wargear or drones", not weapons
3) It seems really silly for GW to not just include the cost of stock weaponry into the base cost of a model
The example roster on p126 of the Xenos 2 index makes clear how this is supposed to work. You have to pay extra for every weapon, even the ones that the model comes with by default.
Also note that many models are very obviously priced assuming that you're paying extra for their weapons. Dark Reapers are not 5 points per model, all-inclusive.
GW had to do it this way in order to have a single entry for each weapon in the appendices. I think that this creates a really cumbersome system and it would be better to just have each unit card give point costs for things, but they seem to think this will make it easier to adjust values later.
2017/06/29 15:18:50
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Price is without weapons. Weapons most def are wargear.
If it was with standard nobody would really upgrade weapons as outputs so homogenious not worth paying say 30 pts to 70 pts dread to get slightly better gun
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/06/29 15:22:48
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
I will use Imperium 2 as my reference (since it's what I have sitting directly in front of me)
For Astra Militarum units, the box with the points value of the units has a line that reads "POINTS PER MODEL (Does not include wargear)" and the unit box next to it reads "POINTS PER MODEL (Including wargear)"
Paying for weapons and the like, even standard ones, is depending on which box the unit in question falls under. If the top of the box for the unit you're kitting out reads "does not include wargear" then you have to pay for the standard wargear (or pay for the upgraded weapon in lieu of the standard one, IE an imperial knight replacing its Thermal Cannon with a R-F Battle Cannon)
Most Daemon units have their wargear baked in too.
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
2017/06/30 06:28:04
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
It's not hard. You just look up a unit's wargear. If it has a price you pay for it. If it doesn't have a price or its price is 0 you don't need to pay for that wargear
Easy peasy
2017/06/30 06:42:59
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
CrownAxe wrote: It's not hard. You just look up a unit's wargear. If it has a price you pay for it. If it doesn't have a price or its price is 0 you don't need to pay for that wargear
Easy peasy
Ok but what annoys me is that FW somehow made some things different...
2017/06/30 07:51:06
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
CrownAxe wrote: It's not hard. You just look up a unit's wargear. If it has a price you pay for it. If it doesn't have a price or its price is 0 you don't need to pay for that wargear
Easy peasy
Ok but what annoys me is that FW somehow made some things different...
like what? How does the process I describe not apply to FW?
2017/06/30 09:00:43
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
CrownAxe wrote: It's not hard. You just look up a unit's wargear. If it has a price you pay for it. If it doesn't have a price or its price is 0 you don't need to pay for that wargear
Easy peasy
Ok but what annoys me is that FW somehow made some things different...
like what? How does the process I describe not apply to FW?
Actually i didn't really mean your process described. It still applies to FW.
It's just annoying that the points of characters in the GW Indexes always include the wargear.
But in the FW Indexes they are not.
2017/06/30 11:29:41
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Sometimes you have to pay for the wargear, sometimes not and mostly it isn't really clear described either.
How is "includes wargear" and "doesnt' include wargear" not clearly described?
His complaining is more on the point that GW and FW didn't streamline their points table. FW's named characters have to buy their equipment, while GW's named ones already have their wargear considered in their cost
Sometimes you have to pay for the wargear, sometimes not and mostly it isn't really clear described either.
How is "includes wargear" and "doesnt' include wargear" not clearly described?
His complaining is more on the point that GW and FW didn't streamline their points table. FW's named characters have to buy their equipment, while GW's named ones already have their wargear considered in their cost
Thanks, you nailed it!
2017/06/30 12:09:12
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Sometimes you have to pay for the wargear, sometimes not and mostly it isn't really clear described either.
How is "includes wargear" and "doesnt' include wargear" not clearly described?
His complaining is more on the point that GW and FW didn't streamline their points table. FW's named characters have to buy their equipment, while GW's named ones already have their wargear considered in their cost
So how is it worded there if it's so unclear?
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/06/30 15:44:23
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
It's just annoying that the points of characters in the GW Indexes always include the wargear.
But in the FW Indexes they are not.
Like who?? I am looking at/through my e-book version of the Astartes index, and literally all the characters that have named/special weapons, those weapons are listed as 0 points.
2017/06/30 16:01:37
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Figured I would post this here as it is as good as any other place.
Using hemlock as an example. If you look at its wargear there is no mention of spirit stones, it has no optional wargear listed. In its abilities.. it lists spirit stones and gives the rule.
This same occurance can be seen with an Autarch and forceshield..
Spirit stones and forceshields are in wargear and have pts associated.
Do you need to pay for these or not? My initial interpretation was since it was not listed in wargear it was something "built into the models cost".. but then i looked at battlescribe today and noticed they changed all the points costs to include that wargear piece. Not saying battlescribe is always correct... but it makes me want to question the proper way to do this.
Grizzyzz wrote: Figured I would post this here as it is as good as any other place.
Using hemlock as an example. If you look at its wargear there is no mention of spirit stones, it has no optional wargear listed. In its abilities.. it lists spirit stones and gives the rule.
This same occurance can be seen with an Autarch and forceshield..
Spirit stones and forceshields are in wargear and have pts associated.
Do you need to pay for these or not? My initial interpretation was since it was not listed in wargear it was something "built into the models cost".. but then i looked at battlescribe today and noticed they changed all the points costs to include that wargear piece. Not saying battlescribe is always correct... but it makes me want to question the proper way to do this.
Thanks!
My take on it is if the datasheet does not say "May take X. . .", then it is built into their cost.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
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2017/06/30 18:34:34
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Grizzyzz wrote: Figured I would post this here as it is as good as any other place.
Using hemlock as an example. If you look at its wargear there is no mention of spirit stones, it has no optional wargear listed. In its abilities.. it lists spirit stones and gives the rule.
This same occurance can be seen with an Autarch and forceshield..
Spirit stones and forceshields are in wargear and have pts associated.
Do you need to pay for these or not? My initial interpretation was since it was not listed in wargear it was something "built into the models cost".. but then i looked at battlescribe today and noticed they changed all the points costs to include that wargear piece. Not saying battlescribe is always correct... but it makes me want to question the proper way to do this.
Thanks!
I would say you'd have to pay for them, especially if the box where Autarch is listed shows points "without wargear"
For instance, if you were building a Knight Gallant, it has a heavy stubber, "chainsword" and "powerfist" . The entry for Knight gallant reads Points: X, and above it, it says "does not include wargear" since the basic loadout/wargear for the gallant is the two CCWs and stubber, you must pay the points for those items.
2017/06/30 18:39:21
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Grizzyzz wrote: Figured I would post this here as it is as good as any other place.
Using hemlock as an example. If you look at its wargear there is no mention of spirit stones, it has no optional wargear listed. In its abilities.. it lists spirit stones and gives the rule.
This same occurance can be seen with an Autarch and forceshield..
Spirit stones and forceshields are in wargear and have pts associated.
Do you need to pay for these or not? My initial interpretation was since it was not listed in wargear it was something "built into the models cost".. but then i looked at battlescribe today and noticed they changed all the points costs to include that wargear piece. Not saying battlescribe is always correct... but it makes me want to question the proper way to do this.
Thanks!
My take on it is if the datasheet does not say "May take X. . .", then it is built into their cost.
Actually, more if it's not listed as wargear, then it's an ability and you don't pay points. If it's wargear listed on the sheet you pay, not just the "May take" options. Otherwise, Dark Reapers are severely undercosted if they don't pay for their weapon.
2017/06/30 23:11:49
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
It's just annoying that the points of characters in the GW Indexes always include the wargear.
But in the FW Indexes they are not.
Like who?? I am looking at/through my e-book version of the Astartes index, and literally all the characters that have named/special weapons, those weapons are listed as 0 points.
His point is that some characters have a listed points value under the heading "(includes wargear), and some have a points value under the heading (Does not include wargear), but the points cost of their wargear is 0. I don't see any confusion there, myself - the rules are perfectly clear.
However, the premise that all the special characters in GW Indexes are listed including wargear and the ones in Forge World Indexes are not is false, as inspection of Index: Imperium 2 will show; Inquisitors Coteaz, Greyfax and Karamazov are all listed without wargear (although they're the only ones like that in that book).
The rule is quite simple; if a model is listed in the (Does not include wargear) table and has an item of wargear that's got a points value, then you pay that points value for the wargear. Doesn't matter if it comes with it as standard or if it's an option.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/30 23:14:14
2017/07/01 01:51:19
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Grizzyzz wrote: Figured I would post this here as it is as good as any other place.
Using hemlock as an example. If you look at its wargear there is no mention of spirit stones, it has no optional wargear listed. In its abilities.. it lists spirit stones and gives the rule.
This same occurance can be seen with an Autarch and forceshield..
Spirit stones and forceshields are in wargear and have pts associated.
Do you need to pay for these or not? My initial interpretation was since it was not listed in wargear it was something "built into the models cost".. but then i looked at battlescribe today and noticed they changed all the points costs to include that wargear piece. Not saying battlescribe is always correct... but it makes me want to question the proper way to do this.
Thanks!
My take on it is if the datasheet does not say "May take X. . .", then it is built into their cost.
Actually, more if it's not listed as wargear, then it's an ability and you don't pay points. If it's wargear listed on the sheet you pay, not just the "May take" options. Otherwise, Dark Reapers are severely undercosted if they don't pay for their weapon.
No. . . Using the above Autarch example, the Forceshield is a rule/ability. In order to use it, you must pay the points listed for it under that section of costs. In looking through the entire Eldar section of that book, in no place is it ever an upgrade, its not an option. My guess is that it is to be counted as wargear, but due to a typo or some such, was not made fully clear.
2017/07/01 01:57:11
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Grizzyzz wrote: Figured I would post this here as it is as good as any other place.
Using hemlock as an example. If you look at its wargear there is no mention of spirit stones, it has no optional wargear listed. In its abilities.. it lists spirit stones and gives the rule.
This same occurance can be seen with an Autarch and forceshield..
Spirit stones and forceshields are in wargear and have pts associated.
Do you need to pay for these or not? My initial interpretation was since it was not listed in wargear it was something "built into the models cost".. but then i looked at battlescribe today and noticed they changed all the points costs to include that wargear piece. Not saying battlescribe is always correct... but it makes me want to question the proper way to do this.
Thanks!
My take on it is if the datasheet does not say "May take X. . .", then it is built into their cost.
Actually, more if it's not listed as wargear, then it's an ability and you don't pay points. If it's wargear listed on the sheet you pay, not just the "May take" options. Otherwise, Dark Reapers are severely undercosted if they don't pay for their weapon.
No. . . Using the above Autarch example, the Forceshield is a rule/ability. In order to use it, you must pay the points listed for it under that section of costs. In looking through the entire Eldar section of that book, in no place is it ever an upgrade, its not an option. My guess is that it is to be counted as wargear, but due to a typo or some such, was not made fully clear.
Forceshields are a Wargear Option for Wraithblades.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2017/07/01 02:02:35
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
No. . . Using the above Autarch example, the Forceshield is a rule/ability. In order to use it, you must pay the points listed for it under that section of costs. In looking through the entire Eldar section of that book, in no place is it ever an upgrade, its not an option. My guess is that it is to be counted as wargear, but due to a typo or some such, was not made fully clear.
It's wargear on Wraithblades, which is the only thing other than the various Autarchs and Prince Yriel that has an ability called "Forceshield", as far as I can see. Interestingly, all three "Forceshield" abilities are different. I don't see that there's any reason at all to think that Autarchs not having Forceshields as wargear is a mistake. The different wording on all of these abilities really drives home that someone looked at this and decided to implement the invulnerable save differently for each unit. Note that Prince Yriel also doesn't have it listed as wargear and still doesn't even have a copy-pasted ability. This sort of thing is actually pretty common. Space Marine Librarians have an ability called "Psychic Hood" which is unconditionally active. Space Wolf Rune Priests have an ability called "Psychic Hood" which only does something if the model is equipped with a piece of wargear called "Psychic Hood". The price of a naked Librarian is just about equal to the cost of a naked Rune Priest plus the cost of a psychic hood.
Hemlock Wraithfighters similarly have an ability called "Spirit Stones" which is again worded differently than the description for the wargear "Spirit Stones" that vehicles can take as upgrades. Again I don't see any reason to think that this is a mistake.
Meanwhile there are a bunch of Blood Angels characters that have a "Death Mask" ability which matters for enemies "within 3" of any models wearing a death mask", but these characters do not themselves have death masks as wargear. I would bet that this is a mistake and that they are supposed to have death masks, or that the ability is supposed to be templated differently than the ability of the same name for units that don't come with wargear included and which have the option to take death masks as wargear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/01 02:04:30
2017/07/01 02:21:36
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Grizzyzz wrote: Figured I would post this here as it is as good as any other place.
Using hemlock as an example. If you look at its wargear there is no mention of spirit stones, it has no optional wargear listed. In its abilities.. it lists spirit stones and gives the rule.
This same occurance can be seen with an Autarch and forceshield..
Spirit stones and forceshields are in wargear and have pts associated.
Do you need to pay for these or not? My initial interpretation was since it was not listed in wargear it was something "built into the models cost".. but then i looked at battlescribe today and noticed they changed all the points costs to include that wargear piece. Not saying battlescribe is always correct... but it makes me want to question the proper way to do this.
Thanks!
My take on it is if the datasheet does not say "May take X. . .", then it is built into their cost.
Actually, more if it's not listed as wargear, then it's an ability and you don't pay points. If it's wargear listed on the sheet you pay, not just the "May take" options. Otherwise, Dark Reapers are severely undercosted if they don't pay for their weapon.
What I meant was the wargear in context of the conversation. If you know that the model is supposed to take something, like Reaper Missile Launchers, or an equivalent, you pay their points. However, when something is a special ability (like Forceshield on an Autarch), it is not listed as "if the unit has a Forceshield", which would indicate, to me, that he comes with it.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
2017/07/02 15:48:04
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
Forceshields are a Wargear Option for Wraithblades.
Ahh, thanks. I was searching and searching, and must have missed it due to looking too hard And Dionysodorus' explanation does help, as I hadn't even considered things like the Iron halo and other marine "gear"
7851/01/01 15:16:32
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
The BA special Dante and the sanguinor have no choices when it come to equipment and are listed as including wargear they have the death mask rule therefore have a death mask which is on there models
Sanguinary guard and sanguinary guard ancient have the option to take a death mask and since they have options are listed as not including wargear they only benefit from the death mask rule if they take a death mask.
It's not complex
2017/07/03 02:55:11
Subject: In 8th Edition, do model's points cost include the cost of stock weapons?
It's just annoying that the points of characters in the GW Indexes always include the wargear.
But in the FW Indexes they are not.
Like who?? I am looking at/through my e-book version of the Astartes index, and literally all the characters that have named/special weapons, those weapons are listed as 0 points.
His point is that some characters have a listed points value under the heading "(includes wargear), and some have a points value under the heading (Does not include wargear), but the points cost of their wargear is 0. I don't see any confusion there, myself - the rules are perfectly clear.
However, the premise that all the special characters in GW Indexes are listed including wargear and the ones in Forge World Indexes are not is false, as inspection of Index: Imperium 2 will show; Inquisitors Coteaz, Greyfax and Karamazov are all listed without wargear (although they're the only ones like that in that book).
The rule is quite simple; if a model is listed in the (Does not include wargear) table and has an item of wargear that's got a points value, then you pay that points value for the wargear. Doesn't matter if it comes with it as standard or if it's an option.
So Pedro Kantor is actually 190pts? His "Does Not Include Wargear" model in the Named Character section is listed at 170pts, yet he must always take a mandatory, non-interchangeable Power Fist as well (+20pts).
If this is indeed the case, then having a 170pts "model" cost for a Named Character with unalterable wargear is laughably [MOD EDIT - Do NOT circumvent the expletive filter - Alpharius] stupid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/03 03:16:39
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Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
And Dionysodorus' explanation does help, as I hadn't even considered things like the Iron halo and other marine "gear"
