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Hey all, new to the forums, and figured this is the best place to ask. Some colleagues of mine are avid Chaos players, particularly Daemon players. I watched a game of theirs that escalated to ridiculous amounts of demons being on the board, and immediately became intrigued. It was my understanding that Daemon summoning was limited by the amount of reinforcement points you put aside at the beginning of the game, but they informed me that this is not the case. They said that the amount of Daemons you can summon into a game is only limited by the number of summoners (chaos characters) and how long they can stay alive, considering rolling doubles or just being killed outright by the enemy. They summed up their reasoning thusly:

1) Reinforcement rules require you to put the models from your army that you choose to come in later to the side, and these models are paid for from your army's points. Daemon summoning doesn't choose models before the summoning actually occurs, so there's no model to put aside. And as you can't point cost models that aren't chosen yet, they don't need points set aside beforehand.

2) They were playing with the Power system (everything else was pretty much matched play, down to Faction limitation on armies). As the power system doesn't have "points" there's no points to set aside in the first place (I'm contentious with this argument, as there are clearly 'points', just lower in number).

3) The Daemonic Ritual rule only states they are treated as reinforcements, and says nothing about having to have points set aside in your army for summoning. The paragraph of rules regarding Reinforcements also doesn't state setting aside points for models that might be summoned/created. The reinforcement rules under Matched play give you the info on how to do it, but since it was Power system, points didn't come into play.

This all leads to their understanding that the Daemonic Ritual allows them to summon endlessly, until their summoners die or they run out of models. They believe the 'Counts as reinforcement' part of the rule only applies the limitations that are applied to other reinforcement units (i.e., cannot move or advance further, counts as having moved for heavy weapons, etc.). Is there a section of the rules that clarifies this? Unfortunately nothing like it was cleared up in the FAQ. Thanks all in advance!

From the Main Rulebook FAQ

Q. If a rule creates a new unit during the battle in a Matched Play game and adds them to my army, must I pay for the unit with my reinforcement points?

A. Yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise). If you don’t have enough reinforcement points, you cannot add that unit to your army

Summoning daemons most definitely cost Reinforcement Points.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the Main Rulebook FAQ

Q. If a rule creates a new unit during the battle in a Matched Play game and adds them to my army, must I pay for the unit with my reinforcement points?

A. Yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise). If you don’t have enough reinforcement points, you cannot add that unit to your army

Summoning daemons most definitely cost Reinforcement Points.

Does this still apply when using the Power cost system for your army?

You can't play matched play rules with power levels. Matched play REQUIRES you to use points and reinforcement points.

If you use power levels, they get infinity daemons.

Orikadon wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From the Main Rulebook FAQ

Q. If a rule creates a new unit during the battle in a Matched Play game and adds them to my army, must I pay for the unit with my reinforcement points?

A. Yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise). If you don’t have enough reinforcement points, you cannot add that unit to your army

Summoning daemons most definitely cost Reinforcement Points.

Does this still apply when using the Power cost system for your army?

it applies when you used matched play rules. It doesn't matter if you are using power level sighing the matched play rules, it's still matched play

 CrownAxe wrote:
it applies when you used matched play rules. It doesn't matter if you are using power level sighing the matched play rules, it's still matched play

Matched play enforces the use of points.

Page 214 wrote:POINTS LIMIT
In a matched play game, you will need to determine with your opponent the points limit for your game.

Ok, so unlimited in Open and Narrative play, and only the points set aside in Matched play, which requires points, not power.

I think I'll only play my Ork against Chaos in Matched Play, lol.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
it applies when you used matched play rules. It doesn't matter if you are using power level sighing the matched play rules, it's still matched play

Matched play enforces the use of points.

Page 214 wrote:POINTS LIMIT
In a matched play game, you will need to determine with your opponent the points limit for your game.

its called house rules

 CrownAxe wrote:
Its called house rules

Oh well in that case all my Daemons are T40 as well.

This forum is not for debating house rules, it's for debating the actual rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Matched play enforces the use of points.

That's not 100% accurate. Page 212 of the rulebook says:

There are several ways to choose an army for matched play games...Typically...an agreed upon points limit, but you could...build armies that have a set number of units. Alternatively, you could use the Wounds characteristic or the Power Rating of each unit...These are just a few examples...

In narrative and open games, I could see an argument for unlimited daemons as part of the story or because it's open play.

As the OP states, the players involved were basing their argument on matched play reinforcements. Clearly, you'd have to set aside points (whether the points are in the form of Power Levels, wounds, etc) when choosing your army to comply with how reinforcements operate. As per page 214:

Each time a unit is added to an army during battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points.

Summoned/created units are added units and therefore must be paid for. If there is no reinforcement pool OR insufficient reinforcement points remaining, the new added unit is either reduced in size or not used (also p.214). Also, from the FAQ:

Q. If a rule creates a new unit during the battle in a Matched
Play game and adds them to my army, must I pay for the unit
with my reinforcement points?
A. Yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise). If you don’t
have enough reinforcement points, you cannot add that
unit to your army.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You can't play matched play rules with power levels. Matched play REQUIRES you to use points and reinforcement points.

If you use power levels, they get infinity daemons.

You can also use Power and Reinforcement fairly easily

I kept 10 Power in our 100 Power Game as Reinforcement using Summoning

 Talamare wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You can't play matched play rules with power levels. Matched play REQUIRES you to use points and reinforcement points.

If you use power levels, they get infinity daemons.

You can also use Power and Reinforcement fairly easily

I kept 10 Power in our 100 Power Game as Reinforcement using Summoning

That's a nice house rule you got there. Irrelevant to what we're discussing.

Reinforcement points are a part of the choose armies rule on page 214. This page wholly deals with creating an army using points.

So if you don't use points you don't have reinforcement points. Therefore the whole rule doesn't affect you if you play with power ratings or wound characteristics and so on, i.e. ignore everything regarding reinforcement points.

No. They're Matched Play rules and apply whether points are used or not

 Ghaz wrote:
No. They're Matched Play rules and apply whether points are used or not

Reinforcement points are only handled in the BRB on page 214. So if you say those rules always apply in matched play then the other rules on that page apply as well. So you say armies in matched play have to use points.

Reinforcement points is a section of the points rule. You can't use one without the other.

 Nurgle23 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No. They're Matched Play rules and apply whether points are used or not

Reinforcement points are only handled in the BRB on page 214. So if you say those rules always apply in matched play then the other rules on that page apply as well. So you say armies in matched play have to use points.

Reinforcement points is a section of the points rule. You can't use one without the other.

And page 214 is Matched Play rules for choosing your army, not rules just for using points. That's why 'Points Limit' has it's own separate section on the page, as it's totally separate from 'Reinforcement Points'.

This discussion is fruitless. Reinforcement points are points that you set aside while creating your army with points.

So the WHOLE reinforcement points rules section refers to using point. And now you want to tell us that the whole reinforcement section has nothing to do with using points?

As I said, you can't use the reinforcement points rules without using points.

 Nurgle23 wrote:
This discussion is fruitless. Reinforcement points are points that you set aside while creating your army with points.

So the WHOLE reinforcement points rules section refers to using point. And now you want to tell us that the whole reinforcement section has nothing to do with using points?

As I said, you can't use the reinforcement points rules without using points.

What is the text at the top of page 214? Here's a hint, it's not 'Points'.

It's choose armies.

And still my argument that reinforcement points directly reference point values holds.

But as you insist that reinforcement rules are always used in matched play then you also insist on always using points limit. Both rules are on the same page and So both apply to matched play equally.

Moral of the discussion: Daemon players REEEEEAAAALLLY want to avoid Matched play.
Between Summoning free units and the Horror's Split rule actually being worth using (as opposed to just spamming tons of Brims from the start), Narrative play is just flat out better for Daemons

It is also a really good reason for Competitive events to stick with Matched play. I can easily see an army of nothing but cheap non-marked CSM characters wrecking face in a Narrative Tourney.
You could only kill the closest model, but that means tons of characters will survive unscathed as you would be forced to overkill the closest ones. Turn 1 almost all the characters are likely to summon a unit. That can easily be over a dozen units, each worth over 100pts.
Do that for 2 turns and you'll easily have double your opponent's army worth in models.

This is why people are suggesting the House-rule that Reinforcement points are used even in Power level games (by inserting "levels" for "points"). It's still a house rule, but likely one so common that it may as well be core

-

 Nurgle23 wrote:
It's choose armies.

And still my argument that reinforcement points directly reference point values holds.

But as you insist that reinforcement rules are always used in matched play then you also insist on always using points limit. Both rules are on the same page and So both apply to matched play equally.

And again, just because it references a rule does not make it a part of those rules. Reinforcement Points still apply even if you've decided not to use points and even if your choice makes the rules meaningless. For example, if two armies without psykers were fighting a battle it doesn't mean that the Psychic phase no longer exists. It means you and your opponent have to decide how the rules affected by your change will work now. It doesn't magically disappear.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Nurgle23 wrote:
It's choose armies.

And still my argument that reinforcement points directly reference point values holds.

But as you insist that reinforcement rules are always used in matched play then you also insist on always using points limit. Both rules are on the same page and So both apply to matched play equally.

And again, just because it references a rule does not make it a part of those rules. Reinforcement Points still apply even if you've decided not to use points and even if your choice makes the rules meaningless. For example, if two armies without psykers were fighting a battle it doesn't mean that the Psychic phase no longer exists. It means you and your opponent have to decide how the rules affected by your change will work now. It doesn't magically disappear.

You don't have any reinforcement points if you don't use points. Don't you get it? Reinforcement point are only created using points. So they don't apply if you are not using points because they don't exist.

So according to you is, if you don't use points you cannot summon any demons.

And why do you keep on insisting that you only have to use certain rules on that page and not the others. Do you only aply rules you just want?
Just because you don't want to use points, the rules on page 214 that say you need to determine a points limit does not magically appear.
You already discard one rule from the page but you are not willing to discard the other rule that is 100% depending on the already discarded rule as well.

So either you start using all the rules or you can stop responding to me. For a discussion both sides have to be on the same ground. And since you choose to aply only a few rules and not all is counterproductive.

RAW you don't have to reserve Power Levels for reinforcements.
RAW you can't do Matched Play with Power Levels.
If you want to play Matched Play with Power Levels you're playing house rules.

I'd suggest that you simply replace points with power levels wherever you find them in the Matched Play rules to keep with the spirit of the Matched Play rules, but that's certainly not a requirement. If two Chaos Players want to play each other and summon ridiculous amounts of Daemons, that's fine. It's technically not Matched Play "as per the book" though, and if facing another player in actual Matched Play they will have to reserve points.

Basically, OP, regarding their 3 arguments: #1 and #3 show your friends to be trollish grognard simpletons. Their second point has a valid (if douchey) argument.

Solution: only play them using points and matched play rules... or... don't play them at all. And encourage them to post here, I'd love to see their actual arguments try to survive in the wild.

 Lobukia wrote:
Basically, OP, regarding their 3 arguments: #1 and #3 show your friends to be trollish grognard simpletons. Their second point has a valid (if douchey) argument.

Solution: only play them using points and matched play rules... or... don't play them at all. And encourage them to post here, I'd love to see their actual arguments try to survive in the wild.

I thought "the wild" would be the real world, not some rulefanatics wet theoretic gameplay dream (also called YMDC).

Talking about matched play and summoning, I still can't understand how reinforcement poits work (I don't have the rulebook yet).

Are reinforcement points part of the list? I mean if I play 2000 points of daemons should I pay, for example, 2-300 points for units that are not part of the game in the beginning but can be summoned in a second moment?

If I deploy all 2000 points available, can't I summon anything cause I need to pay the points for reinforcements?

You invest 1700 points in your list and reserve 300 points.
You set up your 1700 point list as usual (note: deep strike and similar abilities are also "deployed" at this point)
Then during the game you can summon up to 300 points total in additional units. You choose what you summon when you summon, so it gives you additional flexibility when compared to buying models normally during list creation.

Thank you very much nekooni, I got it right then. No free stuff anymore

No free stuff is fine, but there should be a reason to use "Daemonic Ritual" other than as a 'tool box" tactic
Most players were summoning the same units each game anyway and this is even more true now that you can only summon units with the same alignment as your characters.

Having to reserve points means your starting army is smaller, thus easier for the opponent to wipe out key units and have an early game advantage. In 95% on games, it is better to just start everything on the board.
2 small changes would have made summoning a viable tactic:
A) let the character move as normal, but not shoot or cast psychic powers in the same turn as it summons
B) let the summoned unit be set up outside 8" (instead of 9"). Combined with instruments, this could allow for a more viable Alpha-assault army (which Daemons should be)

Along with these changes, I would recommend "Reinforcement points" be applied to Power levels in Narrative games too.

-

I don't get why people are so down on reserve points?
Let's say you run an army like Tau or Marines and have 300 points of units in reserve (deployed in the teleportarium or whatever) then you only have 1700 points on the table etc etc. Only your opponent knows exactly what's coming and knows it has to arrive before turn 4 and can plan accordingly.
A daemon army that reserves the same 300 points can call on anything it wants at any time. Suddenly need something to bust some armour? Some resilience where your line is weakening?What about a turn seven objective grab?
Basically you trade supreme flexibility for a little risk. Maybe the risk is too great now but that can be fixed with point updates and errata.