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To be more specific: given the choice of your favourite Heretic Astartes faction definitively getting Legion Tactics, stratagem, and tweaked balance within a month, or definitely getting all that and a bunch of new unique units and special characters with models available including a unit upgrades set, but having to wait up to 36 months, which would you prefer?


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Dakka ate my poll

World Eaters: give me my rules gak now, I can wait for new models.

Given that Thousand Sons just got new models and I would be seriously shocked if the TS codex came with even more new models, I would absolutely prefer to be placed in the CSM codex. Subfaction codices only make sense for subfactions that are getting shiny new models like DG IMO.

Well... can we think of anything we really want for CSM right now? New characters would be nice for everyone who plays the more obscure legions, but honestly decent legion tactics now would probably be more useful.

SilverAlien wrote:
Well... can we think of anything we really want for CSM right now? New characters would be nice for everyone who plays the more obscure legions, but honestly decent legion tactics now would probably be more useful.

How about Elites that move faster than Infantry speed? Or Elites that can take 2 Heavies per 5 models (or even letting 1k Sons take a Soulreaper Cannon at 5 models?). Obliterators getting "pick a gun" options back? Or...giving distinct purpose to many units in the CSM range, as too many units are "melee only, no utility".

 MagicJuggler wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Well... can we think of anything we really want for CSM right now? New characters would be nice for everyone who plays the more obscure legions, but honestly decent legion tactics now would probably be more useful.

How about Elites that move faster than Infantry speed? Or Elites that can take 2 Heavies per 5 models (or even letting 1k Sons take a Soulreaper Cannon at 5 models?). Obliterators getting "pick a gun" options back? Or...giving distinct purpose to many units in the CSM range, as too many units are "melee only, no utility".

This - you also have so many Heresy era units you can choose from as well.

It'd be nice to have a Sniper unit for one - especially as we don't really have a scout equivalent.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Well... can we think of anything we really want for CSM right now? New characters would be nice for everyone who plays the more obscure legions, but honestly decent legion tactics now would probably be more useful.

How about Elites that move faster than Infantry speed? Or Elites that can take 2 Heavies per 5 models (or even letting 1k Sons take a Soulreaper Cannon at 5 models?). Obliterators getting "pick a gun" options back? Or...giving distinct purpose to many units in the CSM range, as too many units are "melee only, no utility".

The rules are written... strangely, but there is an argument that you can take a soulreaper cannon in a squad of 5. The rule is written differently than rules that explicitly limit what a unit can take ("for every 10 models in the unit" for rubrics vs. "if the squad numbers 10 or above"), which may imply that you can take a soulreaper at any model count but need 20 rubrics to take a second. This is just hearsay but apparently that is in fact the way GW plays it in-house.

For "new" models, the only thing that I really want as a TS player is a 40k port of the Osiron Contemptor, or another way to get psychic dreadnoughts.

I'd rather wait for new models.

I've been waiting for good rules since 2003...I think I can wait a little longer.

Hmm, yeah. With the rise of auras, sniper weapons seem to be the hard counter for a number of powerful builds (notably commissar + conscripts but to a certain extent rival chaos armies as well) - Necrons got their cool-looking Deathmark bots, surely a creative imagining of a sniper can be made for a military for whom the laws of physics are mere guidelines?

Warprifles that shoot through intervening units by opening miniature portals for their projectiles. Magic bullets that can seek out a specified target, like a Murdersword but in munition form. Blood rituals enabling the remote Summoning of a Herald to assassinate someone, but carrying a greater risk to oneself. Hamadrya hawksmen. Karanak (and Flesh Hounds in general?) having enhanced ability to actually reach his quarry. Daemonbow that fires an arrow which either makes a strong LOS attack or else flies into the sky and splits into a volley, allowing you to make an inaccurate attack on every enemy unit within 6" of the initial target.

I still like the idea of a psychic power that lets you reposition an enemy character. Not every faction should have snipers, but every faction should have a way to kill characters.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Well... can we think of anything we really want for CSM right now? New characters would be nice for everyone who plays the more obscure legions, but honestly decent legion tactics now would probably be more useful.

How about Elites that move faster than Infantry speed? Or Elites that can take 2 Heavies per 5 models (or even letting 1k Sons take a Soulreaper Cannon at 5 models?). Obliterators getting "pick a gun" options back? Or...giving distinct purpose to many units in the CSM range, as too many units are "melee only, no utility".

Err... the first two are kinda just issues with slots. Which I'd say isn't really something we are missing so much as we don't have it in that exact slot. The others are issues with old units needing to be better defined, which is an issue solved by a codex not new model/unit releases.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm, yeah. With the rise of auras, sniper weapons seem to be the hard counter for a number of powerful builds (notably commissar + conscripts but to a certain extent rival chaos armies as well) - Necrons got their cool-looking Deathmark bots, surely a creative imagining of a sniper can be made for a military for whom the laws of physics are mere guidelines?

Snipers are one role we are missing admittedly. Personally, I'd prefer an upgrade for CSM or chosen to give them sniper bolters, like veterans can get in 30k. Possibly as a general set of veteran rules like used to exist for CSM. The idea of really ancient skilled angry warriors is personally more appealing to me than lots of warptech and the like.

Arachnofiend wrote:
I still like the idea of a psychic power that lets you reposition an enemy character. Not every faction should have snipers, but every faction should have a way to kill characters.

Psychic powers have the issue of either being really absurdly powerful, or hitting the wall of only being usable once per turn. No way to get additional usages in matched play, which is why our current options aren't great.

Yeah, psychic powers probably aren't the answer to our issues with characters; for one, they can be denied (though it's not necessarily a bad thing for our antichar to be an all-or-nothing as opposed to a gradual sandpapering with sniper MWs); and for another, GW's statement about them scaling was a complete lie - like WFB Dwarf antimagic, psychic powers are overwhelming game-changers potentially worth building an army around in a small battle, but in a large battle will only make an impact on a localised area of the battlefield whilst other psykers slum it with Smite.

They should have either made power selection always random, OR made it so that you can cast each power with as many psykers as you like. But, I digress...

...I remember when Chosen debuted and acted like ultra-Scouts. They had Infiltrate, they had Dispersed Formation... being able to Snipe with their bolters would be something of a callback. Now, they seem to be more like a Havoc squad with chainswords and bolters.

Hopefully at least AL should be getting snipers . Right now CSM only access to snipers are Marauder squads while cheap seems like a cop out.

SilverAlien wrote:


Snipers are one role we are missing admittedly. Personally, I'd prefer an upgrade for CSM or chosen to give them sniper bolters, like veterans can get in 30k. Possibly as a general set of veteran rules like used to exist for CSM. The idea of really ancient skilled angry warriors is personally more appealing to me than lots of warptech and the like.

I don't know. Personally, I don't think corrupted, half-mad Chaos marines are sane or patient enough for a weapon like a sniper rifle. Such a weapon does not fit into the theme of the army at all. Alpha Legion being an exception, of course.
Some kind of intelligent daemonic weapon that seeks out its target by itself fits more into the CSM theme.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


Snipers are one role we are missing admittedly. Personally, I'd prefer an upgrade for CSM or chosen to give them sniper bolters, like veterans can get in 30k. Possibly as a general set of veteran rules like used to exist for CSM. The idea of really ancient skilled angry warriors is personally more appealing to me than lots of warptech and the like.

I don't know. Personally, I don't think corrupted, half-mad Chaos marines are sane or patient enough for a weapon like a sniper rifle. Such a weapon does not fit into the theme of the army at all. Alpha Legion being an exception, of course.
Some kind of intelligent daemonic weapon that seeks out its target by itself fits more into the CSM theme.

You see, this is what I hate. CSM aren't all khorne beserkers and noise marines. Those are the exceptions. Iron warriors are still disciplined warriors who excel at laying down long range firepower, death guard are similar with a focus on marching forward rather than heavy weapons, alpha legion are sneaky, and black legion are capable of utilizing most tactics given they recruit just about anyone they think will be useful. Nightlords are questionable given they prefer to get in people's faces, but it is still possible. Even Tsons would make sense, rubrics armed with inferno sniper rifles with a sorcerer directing them.

I really really hate how people try to ignore how much diversity there is in CSM lore.

Enurta wrote:
Hopefully at least AL should be getting snipers . Right now CSM only access to snipers are Marauder squads while cheap seems like a cop out.

They're cheap if your meta is using points, if you usually play power levels (which is basically compulsory in my local Games Wo-Warhammer store) then each band of five costs as much as five Wolf Scouts, with a fraction of the firepower

Still, worth a go if Conscripts are locally dominant. Easy enough to convert from Cultists, as well. A Disciple squad would be more tempting, were not for the Marauders' ability to use cover.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


Snipers are one role we are missing admittedly. Personally, I'd prefer an upgrade for CSM or chosen to give them sniper bolters, like veterans can get in 30k. Possibly as a general set of veteran rules like used to exist for CSM. The idea of really ancient skilled angry warriors is personally more appealing to me than lots of warptech and the like.

I don't know. Personally, I don't think corrupted, half-mad Chaos marines are sane or patient enough for a weapon like a sniper rifle. Such a weapon does not fit into the theme of the army at all. Alpha Legion being an exception, of course.
Some kind of intelligent daemonic weapon that seeks out its target by itself fits more into the CSM theme.

You see, this is what I hate. CSM aren't all khorne beserkers and noise marines. Those are the exceptions. Iron warriors are still disciplined warriors who excel at laying down long range firepower, death guard are similar with a focus on marching forward rather than heavy weapons, alpha legion are sneaky, and black legion are capable of utilizing most tactics given they recruit just about anyone they think will be useful. Nightlords are questionable given they prefer to get in people's faces, but it is still possible. Even Tsons would make sense, rubrics armed with inferno sniper rifles with a sorcerer directing them.

I really really hate how people try to ignore how much diversity there is in CSM lore.

I agree totally. I am actually repelled by the "general" presentation that CSM are raving madmen who just charge into close combat. Logically this cannot be the case, unless the Chaos Gods really give their everything to protect the raving mad men, as the saner, more careful, methodical CSM are far more likely to survive long term. But of course many things in 40k defy common layman logic so this is poor argument.

As you mentioned, many CSM are actually described to be very capable and resourceful warriors. Even Night Lords are rarely, at least in parts of the fluff, described as raving mad men. Instead they are often shown to be very tactical and realistic, often avoiding open attacks unless with total overwhelming forces, and then stated to have preference for terror tactics against open field actions. Actually against general Imperium the Night Lords tactics are probably very efficient, but as the game of 40k represents essentially skirmish of more or less elite units against opposing units, their general efficiency is not readily translated to tabletop, as fluffwise they are not the best open field fighters. They are backstabbers, assassins, hitmen i.e. they do not fight with their cards revealed, which is difficult to translate to tabletop in balanced way I believe.

As per following what I just wrote, I could totally imagine Night Lords employing sniper rifles. My 30k Night Lords force has a sniper rifle recon squad, because it's super cool, although in actual gameplay sniper rifles are very weak for their price.
Chaos should definetly get similar Recon squad in codex, but this should be limited only for the more sane and methodical legions, such as Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and maybe Black Legion (I do not know their fluff too well).

Also I want the Traitor Legions rules now! Not so interested in new units, and I doubt they will make much more new units, and even those new units will prolly just be more of some kind of mixtures of CSM and daemonic effects, or daemon engines. Because GW as of late seems to prefer to have CSM act more like daemonic forces from Hell instead of traitor marine forces. The over daemonization of CSM is often explained by the effect of Warp and Eye of Terror, but fluffwise significant numbers of CSM operate in fringes of imperium held realspace, far from eye of terror. Cult legions are warped, I totally agree. But how can remotely operating Night Lords or Alpha Legion fleets acquire Daemon Engines from Daemon Forges? Sure it's possible, but they should be very rare among them. Forcing Traitor Legions into same warped mold with Cult Legions doesn't make me happy and is so unfluffy that it makes me want to start playing CSM using Space Marine rules. Which I seriously considered already in last edition, and will probably consider again if Space Marines power creep out of control while CSM get more nerfed "legion tactics". That Ultramarine chapter tactics buff is already crazy powerful boost with all the auras they have available currently. Meanwhile Night Lords will probably get following: "All Night Lords <Legion> infantry and biker units get +1 cover save on the first turn of the game" and this would be very weak compared to Ultramarines revealed Chapter Tactics.

I would like for the CSM codex to contain Legion Tactics for the "generic" legions, and for the cult legions to get their own books and models.

The Nightlords, Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion should all get Legion Tactics and maybe the occasional special unit (Basilisks, Possessed as troops, etc.) and maybe a nice generic Chaos Undivided Tactic for your homebrew warbands. This book should also have updated profiles for the cult troops if needed, and give back a lot of the old options for upgrades (armor and weapons) and marks. Relics and heroes for those legions as well as a few generic items would be ideal as well. With two named lords per legion and a few generics you could have a dozen characters and a few dozen relics and call it good. In a perfect world this would be paired with a model release that was maybe a new kit for Chosen, CSM equivalents/new unit, and maybe Possessed at the new scale. This way you could truescale your guys if you wanted. Sprinkle in a good customizable Lord/Sorc kit and a new tank or something for a 4-5 piece wave and it would be the best.

Thousand Sons, Death Guard, World Eaters, Emperor's Children should each get a codex and be treated like Space Wolves or Blood Angels. They get special units, special cultists, special Dreds/Heavies, and all that fun stuff. With some Legion Tactics on top to further enhance cult troops in a cult army as opposed to those guys who work for Black Legion or whatever. Throw in several characters and a half dozen relics each. Then your model releases would look like the recent Thousand Sons wave where you get your Cult Troops, Cult Termies, Cult... Cultists, Cult Heavy, Characters, and some nice generic HQ choices with lots of options. So 5-6 kits in a wave depending. Obviously Tsons would just get a book, not really new models.

All of this is obviously an Ideal World situation.

Edit: And it would be super great if the Dark Mechanicum got their own book. Demons Should probably do that as well.

I'd like it if they did one book, that had all the rules in it for all the units you could take as a Chaos player. Basically tape the forgeworld Renegades and Heretics rules to the Chaos Index, and add some more Legion specific stuff.

BUT...since Death Guard are getting their own book, I expect each of the 4 Legions who primarily follow one God (has it ever been shown that there are members of any of these who haven't devoted themselves to whichever God their legion is mostly associated with? A World Eater who worships Nurgle, for example?) will get their own books that people will have to use for proxy rules when making a different legion warband dedicated to a specific God (Nurgle Iron Warriors for another example, or Khornate Black Legion) with the rest being Chapter tactics equivalents in the main CSM Codex.

RE non-monolatrist members of the four monolatrist Legions - Fabius Bile was originally of the Emperor's Children. So at the very least it's quite possible for a son of Fulgrim to not go down the Slaaneshi route.