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How are you guys taking them? I've heard various accounts of using a few single flocks, or 1-2 large units herded by a Beastmaster, all the way up to a ludicrous army list with 150 flocks

I can currently field 6-7 flocks and would prefer them to be single models due to there low LD. I'm not really interested in spamming loads of them
They would serve several functions:

A) to deploy first and create a buffer zone for the rest of my army to deploy behind. I like MSU, so I will often go last. Putting down a few "insignificant" drops first might make it easy to deploy the rest of my force defensively. It should also prevent any "deep strikers" from dropping in a charging my other units
B) As a Ynnari force, single flocks can provide Soulburst. I have to use single flocks here because if I lose the unit to Morale (which is VERY likely without a Beast master) I get no soulburst. I can use them to assault while near a Ynnari unit and if the overwatch kills them, I get to Soulburst
C) If overwatch does not kill them, I have likely now engaged a unit in combat. Ideally this should be a unit like a vehicle that does not have the damage output to kill the flock and will have to Fall back, thus negating its firepower.

What are your thoughts?
Single flocks a good idea (especially for Ynnari)?
What's the advantage of using a large unit? How do you mitigate losing the whole unit to Morale?
Using LD9 (drugs) Beast masters just seems like too much of an investment, as is using 2CPs to ignore Morale.

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I was using 3 or 4 singletons for a while as Soulburst fuel and early deep strike denial. I now use 2 max squads and a Beastmaster and I'm never going back.

I use a pretty vehicle-heavy list, where the only things I have that really want to Soulburst are Guardians and the Yncarne. Word of the Phoenix gets me one every turn and otherwise I can rely on killing enemy units, so Razorwings as Soulburst fuel didn't work out too well. They were nice for having an easy way to summon the Yncarne, though.

The Beastmaster keeps my two large squads from fleeing, and even if something happened to him the Yncarne would make them fearless (and gives them 6+ FNP). He costs about 33% of what the two squads do and buffs their damage output by 67%. Together, they function like a Commissar/Commander and Conscripts. The Razorwings completely prevent enemy CC units from getting to my Serpents and Guardians and can rush forward to tie up multiple enemy units. With the Beastmaster their damage output is actually just fine, especially against T6 and T7 3+, and this can be almost doubled with Doom (though you may have better uses for it).

I've played 3 games with this setup and the Razorwings/Beastmaster were the MVPs in 2 of those games despite being only about 10% of the list alongside 3 Hemlocks and the Yncarne. In one game against Tyranids, one squad tied up the Swarmlord for multiple turns (and was actually on track to kill him) while another tied up a shooty termagant horde and an exocrine. In a game against Dark Eldar, they were highly resistant to splinter fire (since they're only paying for T2), did surprisingly good damage to a Venom, and made my army basically immune to my opponent's Wyches and Wracks leaving my Guardians free to shoot. In the third game, the Razorwings were still fine. One squad went toe to toe with Genestealers and won and the other absorbed a whole turn of point-blank fire from the Imperial Guard half of the army, protecting the Yncarne who was about to charge in from their lascannons and even two plasma drop squads.

Yeah, those Razorwings were brutal mate.

Its really hard to lose the whole unit to morale if their is a beastmaster- who you should give the drug splintermind. They then have a LD of 9, which means you need to lose 4 models before there is even a chance that morale is a factor.

4 Models is 16 wounds- you could lose 19 wounds and still have lost only 4 models, yes they are toughness 2 with no real save- however if anything is dropping 16-19 wounds onto them you should be happy that shooting wasn't targeting something that was actually valuable.

The flocks are base LD 4, so losing any models is the chance to lose more. You either use them as single models, or take a larger flock with a BM if you don't want morale to be an issue.

Does the Beastmaster's LD stack with the Warlord Trait for +1LD?
I don't see any reason why it wouldn't, either because the BM is your WL, or in range of your WL

So LD10 flocks need to lose 5 models before Morale has even a 1 in 6 change to claim another. I may have to try 2x 12 flocks someday.
Actually, I like the idea of 2x 10 flocks and 4 singles to hang out near my Ynnari Windriders.

The big units move forward, screening my Bikes as they get decent targets to shoot. Having the singles at about 9" away from a target that can kill them in overwatch, and my Bikes 7" behind those single, means I can double my Shuricannon fire before charging in the big flocks.

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Yeah, it stacks.

What's nice about them is they can assault flyers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
What's nice about them is they can assault flyers.

But they can't effectively do anything to Flyers, so I don't get how this is good
I see the best use of Razorwing Flocks is to screen your valuable units and engage units that don't have Fly so that you tie up enemy shooting
Assaulting a Flyer isn't going to kill it even with all the re-rolls and then the Flyer just flies away.

One 12 Flock does 6 wounds to a Stormraven. That is not exactly "ineffective".

Fragile wrote:
One 12 Flock does 6 wounds to a Stormraven. That is not exactly "ineffective".

Exactly, even feeble S2 attacks can do damage in sufficient volumes and each flock has 8 attacks. Think of them as gumming up the air intakes with their bodies.

The only thing putting me off is that at £10 per base, they are expensive to spam.

Actually, the math is off a bit. I calculated at S3, so its only 3 wounds. But at 7 points a model, that pretty solid.

There is no difference between Str 2 and 3 when talking about toughness 6 and more. So not sure how that effected your maths? Still need 6s to wound.

12 Razorwings with a Beastmaster expect to do about 3 wounds to T4+ 3+. Which basically means they're making their points back against a Stormraven in one turn (not counting the Beastmaster). With Doom that goes up to a bit more than 5. Granted, a Stormraven can easily stay away from them, but then it's not using its hurricane bolters effectively.

96 attacks, hitting on 5, rerolling 1's is approx. 37 hits

37 hits, wounding on 6's is approx. 6 wounds

With a 3+ armour save you do 2 wounds to marine and storm raven alike

With doom - its almost 4 wounds

I've used a single 12 model unit. For me I tend to make a line out of them to block Deep Striking shenanigans.This is in 1000 point games.

Considering how cheap they are I am tempted to get another 12 model unit for 2000 point games.

 Massaen wrote:
96 attacks, hitting on 5, rerolling 1's is approx. 37 hits

37 hits, wounding on 6's is approx. 6 wounds

With a 3+ armour save you do 2 wounds to marine and storm raven alike

With doom - its almost 4 wounds

You can actually reroll all the to-hits, not just the ones. So it's 53.3 hits, 3 unsaved wounds.

Wow! Been doing myself out of hits! Thanks for pointing that out!

 Karhedron wrote:

The only thing putting me off is that at £10 per base, they are expensive to spam.

What about using the aetherwings bits from Vanguard Raptors? Bonus, the birds even look better!

Aetherwings would be even more expensive

 Karhedron wrote:

Fragile wrote:
One 12 Flock does 6 wounds to a Stormraven. That is not exactly "ineffective".

The only thing putting me off is that at £10 per base, they are expensive to spam.

https://www.amazon.com/CMON-GUG0063-Zombicide-Murder-Crowz/dp/B00WKTTCW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500645498&sr=8-1&keywords=zombicide+murder+of+crows

These are great 3rd party models for razorwings.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Karhedron wrote:

Fragile wrote:
One 12 Flock does 6 wounds to a Stormraven. That is not exactly "ineffective".

The only thing putting me off is that at £10 per base, they are expensive to spam.

https://www.amazon.com/CMON-GUG0063-Zombicide-Murder-Crowz/dp/B00WKTTCW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500645498&sr=8-1&keywords=zombicide+murder+of+crows

These are great 3rd party models for razorwings.

Indeed, these are the models that tourney players with 100+ flocks are using
It kinda makes me think that tourneys might reintroduce the old "must be GW models" requirement just to cut down on this kind of spam

Even at the rumored points increase to 12-14ppm, Razorwing flock spam could still be powerful

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12-14 points is unreasonable. That's just silly.

Also, I would hate the "must be GW models" policy. What about all the people who have used alternate models for years, or have custom built their own models. Or Orks player who use anything including children's toys to build models.

I believe that would be a very very poor move.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
12-14 points is unreasonable. That's just silly.

Also, I would hate the "must be GW models" policy. What about all the people who have used alternate models for years, or have custom built their own models. Or Orks player who use anything including children's toys to build models.

I believe that would be a very very poor move.

I agree with you 100%. I'm just passing along what I've heard about the points cost.
The only GW models thing would be sad, but I could see it happen if tourney organizers see it as a way to cut down what they think is an "unsportsman-like" list

However, since this only really affects Razorwing flocks, but not Conscripts, Brimstones or Stormraven, hopefully it does catch on.
I'm holding my breath on the points value though. If they stay 7-10ppm. then I'll likely get several Zombicide Crow boxes
If they end up being 12+ppm, a few singles is all I'll use.

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Now 14ppm.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Now 14ppm.

Does this kill them competitively or just mean that people are taking less of them?

And minimum unit size of 3.

 luke1705 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Now 14ppm.

Does this kill them competitively or just mean that people are taking less of them?

MSU Flocks are now more expensive than a 5 person Kabalite Warrior squad. Granted they are more than twice the wounds, but better save, toughness, and have decent range. Plus if you are running raiders and venoms you are definitely going to be using those warriors.

The new FAQ doubled their points price, now they are 14 points per base. Units of 3-12 models.

Bye bye flocks, they become useless once again now.

I don't know if they are useless, just not auto-take

Not being able to take just 1 flock means you have to deal with their Morale by having a bigger unit and a nearby Beastmaster.
This combined with having to take a Ynnari character to take Ynnari kills Ynnari for me (most of my lists are vehicles anyway)

But I'd still like to try them and the idea of 50+ flocks still seems viable.

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costing double hard you can spam them like b4, that was their real strenght... deploy tons of them, same thing like brimstones.If you want run 50 you must spend now 700pts...very hard if you play at 1500 pts, still possible at 2000 but anyway they got a big nerf and that is fine, hope they will do same with brimstones....
PS: and i m a demon player

However, since this only really affects Razorwing flocks, but not Conscripts, Brimstones or Stormraven, hopefully it does catch on

dont worry brimstones will be fixed soon and SR spam got a big hit as well, now the turn you have only flyers on the table you lost, so you need to rethink ur 5-6 storm raven list, keeping in mind if also you find a solution to still field 5 SR. Gw can take some other step to make them harder to play in large number, so build up ur costly list but be aware that could quickly be destroyed...spam in mass isn't fun and lead the game towards who have more money to build an army, players skills means nothing when you play 250 brimstone or things like that and behind tons of characters unkillable, cause they cant be charged or shooted....so tysm Gw.

 Galef wrote:
I don't know if they are useless, just not auto-take

Not being able to take just 1 flock means you have to deal with their Morale by having a bigger unit and a nearby Beastmaster.
This combined with having to take a Ynnari character to take Ynnari kills Ynnari for me (most of my lists are vehicles anyway)

But I'd still like to try them and the idea of 50+ flocks still seems viable.

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They are now more expensive wounds than Conscripts, and bolters still cause them almost twice as many wounds as Conscripts. Kabalite Warriors or Storm Guardians are now almost as durable per point as Razorwing Flocks against bolter fire. They're all exactly the same, per point, against lasguns. So really they are no longer suitable for use as cheap wounds or screeners unless you would be willing to use Warriors or Guardians for the job. Their damage output is also not very impressive, and of course they still require a Beastmaster. In their best-case scenario, which is probably attacking a Doomed Knight Crusader with a Beastmaster close by, they do about 78% of their cost in damage. Meanwhile Guardian Defenders do 81%, or 95% with an Autarch, and are far better against basically everything else.

They're dead and buried. GW wanted them gone.