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2017/07/23 22:26:27
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
It's been a while since I've ran my Tyranids. Back in 6th & 7th, I was known by many as a top Tyranid player. And I was the top ITC Tyranid player 2 years ago. However, it's a whole new ball game now.
I started off my 8E career playing Space Wolves and Chaos. I actually didn't get the Tyranid codex until later in 8th Edition (it was the last 8E codex that I got). I also have not been paying attention to all the rumours and various threads online with regards to the new Tyranids. Thus, I am starting off Tyranids with a clean slate and a virgin mind. Unlike my first 2 armies of 8th - Space Wolves and Chaos Tzeentch - I am taking a fresh approach to my bugs. My Wolves and Tzeentch armies were more competitive, optimized armies which revolved around running some of the more efficient units in their respective books. Basically, those armies involved spamming some of the best units (in my mind) that those armies have to offer.
With Tyranids, I am mostly feeling out some of the units there which I feel have potential. Keep in mind that I have not been following the news on competitive bugs that have been posted online. This way, I can have an unbiased perception of the various Tyranid units. This also means that it will be a trial-and-error process for me, but in a way, that is also part of the fun of exploring an army that you love. In my army, I am basically trying out various types of Tyranid units that I think may be good or synergistic. I am also trying to minimize on the spam, at least for now. The new Tyranid armies is not an easy army to play. I do not see any must-take units there, at least not in the way that units such as Dreadnoughts or Brimstones attracted my attention in my other armies. So how good are my Tyranids. I can't really say for now. I hope they can be good, but I am pretty sure that my bugs are far from being optimized at this point.
As for my opponent, he is my long time 40K rival and friend, SabrX. SabrX stopped playing 40K after 6th Edition for a while. He didn't start to get back into 40K gaming until the tail end of 7th. SabrX has a Sisters army and we have battled many times since back in the early days of 5th. However, since 6th came out, he hasn't touched his Sisters army in ages. This game will be the first time he will be running his Sisters in almost 2 editions. I actually helped him with the transition of his army list into 8th (as well as lent him my Shadowsword for him to use against me), but he is just as inexperienced with his Sisters as I am with my Bugs in 8E.
2000 Jy2's Hive Fleet Pandora Tyranids
Battalion Detachment:
Flyrant - 4x Deathspitters with Maggots
Flyrant - 4x Deathspitters with Maggots
I believe I can take on my opponent's army. I can deal with his tanks. The only unit which will give me problems is the Shadowsword. I can't deal with it, at least not with all his other units around. Before I can get to the Shadowsword, I am going to have to kill off the rest of his army first. That will be easier said than done, however. His Shadowsword can reliably take out 1 MC a turn and probably more. Then all of his flamers are going to hurt my infantry units. Even charging them will be painful due to Overwatch.
How I will win this game is via my theory of MTO, otherwise known as Maximum Threat Overload. Play aggressive and overload my opponent with as many units as I can. Box in my opponent in his own deployment zone, and then while he is busy dealing with all the threats I will throw at him, my gribblies and Malanthrope will steal the Relic and run away with it. Of course for this tactic to work, I need for 2 things to happen:
1. I go first. If my opponent goes first, then he can just scout up ahead with his Dominions and block off the Relic, thus making it much more difficult for me to "steal" the objective.
2. If I can survive all his shooting. Now this is a big "IF" here.
First turn will be important, more so than the last turn objective grab/contest. Although we both are not bringing really strong alpha-strike armies, the person going first can shoot himself to a big advantage in this game (though probably not a crippling advantage). Trust me, I'd prefer not to get shot at by the Shadowsword, at least not before I am able to take down a couple of Immolators first.
Will my strategy work? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Sisters: (by SabrX)
Spoiler:
This was my first game playing the new 8th Edition ruleset. It's been a while since I last played my Sisters of Battle army. They shined back in Codex Witch Hunters during 5th Edition. Their new codex was an overall nerf. I lost interest in playing Sisters after my dismal results in BAO 2014 (ironically, he had to play against my Hive Fleet Pandora there - Jy2). I stopped playing them in 6th and didn't touch them at all in 7th Edition. With 8th Edition, majority of the armies were debuffed while Sisters of Battle received a boost from the new Acts of Faith allowing free out-of-phase actions. Meltaguns and flamers are trending, which Sisters have plenty of.
Going into this game, I had a general idea how Jy2's army performed. Our armies often sparred with each other in the past. His list was actually very similar to what he used to field in the past, minus the Tervigons. I suspect his Hive Guards, Flyrants and reserve units will be a problem. Battleshock won't have a huge impact given Tyranids having plenty of Synapse bubbles. There isn't a whole lot I can do against reserve elements other than turtle in my vehicles and strike when given the opportunity. I should have plenty of flamers to deal with horde elements. Jy2 insisted I try out the new Shadowsword. I've always been a sucker for Super-heavies, so why not? Hopefully I have enough high damage output to deal with Monsters.
Win or lose, I expect a very action-packed game and valuable knowledge in how our past armies will perform in the new 8th Edition.
The Adepta Sororitas, aka Sisters of Battle, finish deploying first. The Dominion Immolators are the two in the front with the red tops.
Tyranid deployment. I try to deploy everything within the Malanthrope's 3" bubble. However, it turns out the Zoanthropes are just outside.
In my reserves are: Trygon, Mawloc, Raveners and Genestealers.
For the 4th game in a row, I give my opponent +1 to his Initiative roll-off. And for the 4th game in a row, I still win the Initiative despite the +1 bonus to my opponent.
For his Dominion's "Scout" moves, they circle the wagons and move back towards the army to form a wall.
Bugs advance. One of the termagants pick up the Relic.
Now time for my "Reserves".
Raveners come in to threaten his Exorcists.
Trygon and Genestealers come in to my opponent's left flank.
Mawloc pops up and does 1 mortal wound (MW) to an Immolator, 3MW to the middle Immolator and 1MW to Celestine.
In the Psychic phase, Smite from both Flyrants do 3MW to an Immolator (they can only hit the closest target). The Flyrants also cast Catalyst on the Flyrant by itself and Onslaught onto the front unit of Termagants.
Zoanthropes do 4MW to the Immolator (the Dominion's) closest to them.
Shooting (mainly the Hive Guards) takes down 1 Immolator for First Blood and do another 3W to a wounded Immolator (6W of damage so far).
Raveners do 1W of damage to an Exorcist.
Lastly, both Flyrants focus on an Immolator and takes off 8W from it.
Now time for Assault.
Gants try to charge an Immolator but loses 5 to its Overwatch. They then fail to make the charge.
Genestealers make their charge, losing ony 2 to Overwatch. The Trygon, however, does not make its charge. Genestealers then do 7W of damage to it.
Lastly, the Raveners make their charge, though I had to spend 1 Command Point (CP) in order to help them make the charge. Raveners only do 4W of damage to it.
Sisters 1
Spoiler:
Beginning of Sisters Turn 1.
At the beginning of his Turn, SabrX uses Act of Faith to fire his Exorcist. It does 7W of damage to my Mawloc.
We would later find out that the Exorcist cannot perform an Act of Faith.
SabrX would fail his other Act of Faith attempt.
SabrX moves the Immolator and Exorcist out of close-combat with my units. But first, he disembarks several of his units.
Melta-nuns go after my Flyrant.
Note: I was playing cover wrong here. I thought Monsters had to be in cover and 50% obscured.
Time for some shooting. Between the Shadowsword and the Exorcist, my opponent takes down 2 Raveners and put 2W on a 3rd Ravener.
Volcano Cannon from the Shadowsword takes out the Trygon.
Flamers bring down 7 Genestealers.
Combi-melta (from Canoness), some flamers and a couple of Lascannons bring my Mawloc down to 2W remaining.
My Flyrant is lucky to only suffer 2W of damage from the Melta-nuns plus Immolator flamer (both of his meltas whiffed).
Lastly, Dominion flamers and Immolator flamers wipe out the front unit of Termagants, causing them to drop the Relic, and kill off another 6 gants from the back squad.
Battle Sisters, Celestine and the Canoness then charge.
Sisters whiff and my Genestealers kill 2 Sisters from each unit. However, Celestine takes down the Mawloc.
So this turn, SabrX kills a Mawloc, Trygon, unit of Termagants and the majority of my Genestealers. That is a great comeback by the Sisters. They have severely neutered by assault threats and they still have a lot of firepower. Can my bugs somehow turn the tide of the battle and make this a game once again? We shall see.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
I continue to play aggressively. Bugs advance. Tyrant Guards run forwards to protect one of the Flyrants. The other Flyrant stays within the Malanthrope's -1 bubble.
Termagants form a screen while my Warlord, the Malanthrope, picks up the Relic.
Raveners go between the 2 Exorcists.
Flyrant Smites the wounded Immolator and blows it up. The explosion then kills 3 Battle Sisters. (By the ways, the Tyrant Guard is actually on the lower level of the ruins.)
Zoanthropes Smite down another Immolator.
Wow, those are two awesome Smites!. Flyrant also casts Catalyst and Onslaught on the Carnifex.
Tyranid shooting is somewhat lackluster. It takes out a unit of flamer Sisters and does 3W of damage to an Immolator.
We then go to Assault. Raveners charge the wounded Exorcist.
Tyrant Guards charge the Melta girls and my Carnifex the Immolator.
Raveners kill the Exorcist. One Ravener dies to Overwatch. Genestealer lose 1 but finish off the Sisters.
Tyrant Guard finish off the Sisters, though I do lose 1 to an Overwatching Meltagun.
Carnifex takes 5W of damage from Overwatch!!! He then whiffs completely. Let me tell you. Hitting on 4's and wounding on 5's for a big nasty like the Carnifex really sucks.
While my shooting was not particularly impressive, overall it was a great turn for the Tyranids.
Sisters 2
Spoiler:
Celestine goes on the offensive. Sisters form a wall to delay the Tyranid advance.
Between the Shadowsword and Canoness, Sisters shooting is subpar. They manage only to kill 2 Raveners and 1 Genestealer with a Combi-melta, Lascannons and Twin Heavy Bolters.
The Volcano Cannon misses completely.
Canoness then charges, kills off the Genestealer and consolidates back into terrain.
Celestine charges the Carnifex but manages only to do 2W of damage to it.
Sisters are losing momentum and they are losing it quickly.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
Carnifex retreats from combat with Celestine. Lone Ravener goes after the Canoness.
Celestine is a thorn to my side, one that I really need to deal with. Flyrant and Tyrant Guards move back into Malanthrope range.
Zoanthropes Smite down the 5 Sisters. Smite is really doing some work in this game.
It takes both all my psychic shooting as well as most of my regular shooting just to bring down Celestine and her bodyguard....
....and then she just gets right back up (and 9" away from my army). I have 1 more unit of Hive Guards yet to fire. They put 2W on Celestine.
I also manage to do 5W of damage to the Shadowsword.
Far Carnifex makes the charge against the Immolator after advancing and being Onslaughted. He suffers 2W of damage to Overwatch.
Ravener charges the Canoness.
Carnifex finally kills something in Assault. Ravener and Canoness each do 1W of damage to each other.
Sisters 3
Spoiler:
Celestine goes after my Warlord with the Relic. Her bodyguard respawns.
Shadowsword shoots down 1 Zoanthrope.
Shadowsword and Exorcist combine to take down 1 Carnifex and shoot 5W off of the other Carnifex (7W of damage total, 1W remaining). This was before firing the big gun. Shadowsword also aims its big gun at the last Carnifex. It only hits/wounds with 1 shot and then my opponent rolls 1,1 on 2D6 of damage. I then take my Catalyst "FNP" saves and roll 6,6. My Carnifex with just 1W remaining has just shrugged off a Volcano Cannon shot to its face!!!
Celestine then assaults and does 7W of damage to my Warlord! Hang on there buddy, hold on for dear life!
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
The game is going much quicker now. Malanthrope retreats from Celestine.
It takes my Psychic powers (I fail a couple this turn) and shooting to finally take out SabrX's Warlord.
Carnifex charges the Shadowsword but dies to Overwatch.
Finally, the Canoness is able to remove the last Wound off of my Ravener.
Sisters 4
Spoiler:
Shadowsword takes out both Tyrant Guards....
....as well as 1 Flyrant.
I forget that my Flyrant has a 5++ Invuln save. Otherwise, my Flyrant might have survived.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
My shooting/psychic is boss this turn.
Remaining Flyrant does 6 Mortal Wounds (MW) of damage with Smite.
Hive Guards with Shockcannons roll 6,6 to wound with their guns. They cause 5MW plus 1W of regular damage to the Shadowsword. The rest of my bugs do another 5W of damage for a total of 17 damage this turn, plus 5W previously for a total of 22W of damage.
Sisters 5
Spoiler:
My opponent cannot do anything to my army. His Shadowsword, due to the amount of damage it has taken, is hitting on 6's. With the Malanthrope's -1 bubble, the Shadowsword cannot even hit my bugs.
All my opponent has left is a gravely wounded Shadowsword, his Canoness and 1 Exorcist. I have the game firmly in hand, but if the game did continue, Sisters most likely would have gotten tabled. With that, we call the game. Tyranids win 19-0.
For my post game, I am going to do a review of how my units did.
Dakka Flyrant:B. The Flyrant isn't nearly as good in this edition as it was back then in 8th. One of my biggest concerns about the Flyrant was its survivability. Thus, in order to run it (or a Walkrant or the Swarmlord), you almost always have to invest in Tyrant Guards as well. In any case, the Maggot Deathspitters are ok, but the lack of good AP and only 1 damage makes it somewhat underwhelming. Add to the fact that it no longer gets to re-roll misses with its gun and I am rethinking whether I should run 2 in my list (or whether I should even run them at all!). On the bright side, his mobility is still good and his Psychic powers are pretty boss all game. Smite definitely helped to offset the lack of firepower here.
Genestealers:B-. I'm not sure if I'm running them properly (without any buffs), but their performance was a little disappointing to me. I was expecting them to kill the Immolator on the charge, but they didn't. At least they killed the 2 units of Sisters who charged them. Honestly though, I was expecting them to do a little more damage.
Termagants:C. They didn't do much in this game besides grabbing the Relic, screening out the enemy and then dying. In other words, exactly as they were meant to do. Had they done any damage to the enemy at all, I would have bumped up their grade. Otherwise, they were completely mediocre in this game.
Raveners:B-. As with the Genestealers, I was expecting a little more from my Raveners, especially the shooting part since I gave them guns. Shooting was poor. Assault was better as they killed 1 Exorcist. Overall, I felt that they could have done better.
Mawloc:B. Mawloc did quite a bit of damage the turn it came in. However, it never lived to do anything beyond that. That's the problem with Mawlocs. You almost always have to run at least 2 or you will never get more than 1 turn of offense from them. On the bright side, they are cheap as dirt for a Monster with 12W. I can see many competitive Tyranid armies running a pair of these.
Trygon:Incomplete. It came in and died before it even had a chance to do anything. The jury is still out on the Trygon. I like the assault potential of the Trygon as well as its ability to carry a Tyranid infantry unit with it. I just need to see it in action before I can give it a grade.
Carnifex w/Scything Talons:D. I must admit, I was expecting more from my Carnifexes. They definitely disappointed me in this game. Hitting on 4's and then wounding T7 vehicles on 5's really sucks. One of the Carnifex did manage to kill a wounded Immolator, but that was because it only had 2W left. Next time, I will try running them with Crushing Claws, but hitting on 5's isn't going to be fun either. Perhaps a Gunfex might be the way to go? More playtesting will be needed.
Tyrant Guards:C. They did manage to kill 2 Sisters, but overall they did what I brought them to do. They soaked up damage meant for my Flyrant and then died.
Hive Guards:A-. These two units are perhaps my best performing units of the game. They provided reliable and constant offense throughout the entire game and they were responsible or helped to damage/destroy most of my opponent's units. The thing is, their offense was somewhat low-key, unlike the flash of the units casting Smite. Hence, my opponent ignored them all game, which in turn increased their productivity. Definitely highly recommended in any balanced Tyranid army.
Zoanthropes:B+. Smite from my Zoanthropes was deadly and reliable. With 4 Zoanthropes, you are doing 2D3 Mortal Wounds instead. Moreover, the 3++ means they can survive lascannons and meltas. Definitely a good unit to have as a source of Synapse and for some psychic offensive kick. I probably wouldn't run more than one unit of these though. Next time, I will try them out with the Neurothrope.
Malanthrope:A. This HQ is the glue that binds the army. The fact that he is a Character with 9W makes him just about mandatory in a Tyranid army. Yes, he is the only must-take unit in a Tyranid army. His force-multiplying army-wide buff is so good that I even recommend running multiple Malanthropes. Although he added nothing offensively to the army, his defensive prowess makes him one of the most important units in the army.
MVP:Smite. The true MVP of my army in this game is the power Smite. My Smite was super-effective this game (mainly due to my rolling). I've got Smite damages of 6, 5, 5 and more. However, in terms of Tyranid MVP, I'd have to go with my Runner-Up's - the Hive Guards. It was their steady offense that helped me to win this war of attrition.
Sisters: (by SabrX)
Spoiler:
Wow, that was a brutal match. I learned a lot about my army's strengths and weaknesses after playing this game.
There isn't much I can do against Hive Guards shooting outside of TLOS. They were pretty vicious! Jy2 was lucky going first. His reserve elements kept me tied in my own table quarter. Assault units are pretty good at shutting down shooting elements by being within an inch.
Vehicles are much more resilient with the high wounds count, toughness, and armor save. I'm surprised how long it took Jy2 to pop all my Immolators. Mechanized infantry is still relevant in the current meta for surviving alpha strikes. Alpha strike is more relevant in 8th Edition than past editions.
I may consider sniper characters in the future to deal with pesky buff characters such as Jy2's Malanthrope. I also need conscript blobs to pillow fort against assault elements.
Special thanks to Jy2 to my first 8th edition game and showing me the ropes.
Saint Celestine & Gemini: A Saint Celestine is one of the best units in the SoB arsenal. Free AoF test, +1 invulnerable save, and solid close combat performance. A must have in any SoB army! Don't leave home without her!
Canoness: A- Reliable meltagun-platform with re-roll 1's bubble is pretty good. She's more of a support element. Not tanky or proficient in close combat as Saint Celestine, but still very useful.
DominionsA Retaining their "scout" move from the previous edition and spamming special range weapons makes them one of the best units in the new rulebook. A single Dominion cost 1 point extra over a single Battle Sister. Seems like a good upgrade to me. Combined with Acts of Faith and they can dish out a lot of damage (assuming they are disembarked). There's also new core rule FoC that allows spamming Fast Attack choices. I may spam more Dominion units in the future. I'll definitely look into using Repressors over Immolators. Mobile pill-box sounds fun.
Immolator: B Immolators with double HF now do 2D6 Str5 AP-1 with no -1 hit modifiers after moving. They are also much more resilient than before. I was surprised how many of my Immolators survived Jy2's alpha strike in this game. Sure one of the drawbacks to fielding most vehicles is not being able to shoot if an enemy model is within an inch. However, any unit declaring their assault against them has to eat 2D6HF from overwatch.
I'd give Immolators a higher score if it weren't for their expensive points cost.
Battle Sisters: A- The new split fire rules makes TAC builds more flexible. Battle Sisters are still relevant for the Battalion Detachment - 3 Command Points. Their inexpensive points cost makes it easier to go MSU.
Exorcist: C Mediocre performance in this game. Jy2 reserve elements diminish their effectiveness. They aren't reliable source of damage output and are points heavy. D6 hits and -1 to BS if they move is mediocre. D4 damage makes them even more random.
I suggest save your points and invest in Retributors or meltagun upgrades on other SoB units.
Shadowsword: A+ Shadowsword is bristling with firepower. Its Volcano Cannon dished out a lot of damage throughout the game. It easily destroyed Monstrous Creatures. On top of that, it provides my Sisters army Lascannons, which were more useful and cheaper than the Exorcists. In the future, may upgrade mine to quad sponsons.
This message was edited 18 times. Last update was at 2017/07/29 14:41:10
Note: We didn't know it at the time, but apparently, my opponent's list is illegal. You need to take 2 units for each dedicated transport in your list. His list had 5 dedicated transports but only 9 units. Thus, my opponent needed 1 more unit in his list to take his 5th dedicated transport. If he had to change it, he would have dropped 1 Immolator and taken more foot infantry.
What do you mean? Battalion says: "Dedicated Transports: May include 1 for each other choice"
Note: We didn't know it at the time, but apparently, my opponent's list is illegal. You need to take 2 units for each dedicated transport in your list. His list had 5 dedicated transports but only 9 units. Thus, my opponent needed 1 more unit in his list to take his 5th dedicated transport. If he had to change it, he would have dropped 1 Immolator and taken more foot infantry.
What do you mean? Battalion says: "Dedicated Transports: May include 1 for each other choice"
There, I highlighted the keyword for you.
Both my opponent and I intepret that to be you can take 1 dedicated transport for every other unit you have in the army (for those units that can take dedicated transports). Thus, in order to take 5 dedicated transports, your army must have at least 10 units (and those 5 units you select must have the option to take dedicated transports).
However, we did not notice this until after our game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/24 08:15:50
Note: We didn't know it at the time, but apparently, my opponent's list is illegal. You need to take 2 units for each dedicated transport in your list. His list had 5 dedicated transports but only 9 units. Thus, my opponent needed 1 more unit in his list to take his 5th dedicated transport. If he had to change it, he would have dropped 1 Immolator and taken more foot infantry.
What do you mean? Battalion says: "Dedicated Transports: May include 1 for each other choice"
There, I highlighted the keyword for you.
Both my opponent and I intepret that to be you can take 1 dedicated transport for every other unit you have in the army (for those units that can take dedicated transports). Thus, in order to take 5 dedicated transports, your army must have at least 10 units (and those 5 units you select must have the option to take dedicated transports).
However, we did not notice this until after our game.
I think it just means that you need 1 non-DT unit for every DT you take. Specifically, the 'other' would refer to anything that's not a Dedicated Transport. For it to be like you interpret, it would have to be "may include 1 for each other other choice".
So it looks like your opponent's list was ok.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/24 09:35:19
2017/07/24 13:56:00
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
Note: We didn't know it at the time, but apparently, my opponent's list is illegal. You need to take 2 units for each dedicated transport in your list. His list had 5 dedicated transports but only 9 units. Thus, my opponent needed 1 more unit in his list to take his 5th dedicated transport. If he had to change it, he would have dropped 1 Immolator and taken more foot infantry.
What do you mean? Battalion says: "Dedicated Transports: May include 1 for each other choice"
There, I highlighted the keyword for you.
Both my opponent and I intepret that to be you can take 1 dedicated transport for every other unit you have in the army (for those units that can take dedicated transports). Thus, in order to take 5 dedicated transports, your army must have at least 10 units (and those 5 units you select must have the option to take dedicated transports).
However, we did not notice this until after our game.
I think it just means that you need 1 non-DT unit for every DT you take. Specifically, the 'other' would refer to anything that's not a Dedicated Transport. For it to be like you interpret, it would have to be "may include 1 for each other other choice".
Why flamers on dominions? Flamers are so meh right now. Stormbolters outperform them and Melta are pretty great for Dominions.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2017/07/24 17:02:47
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
I think it just means that you need 1 non-DT unit for every DT you take. Specifically, the 'other' would refer to anything that's not a Dedicated Transport. For it to be like you interpret, it would have to be "may include 1 for each other other choice".
Why flamers on dominions? Flamers are so meh right now. Stormbolters outperform them and Melta are pretty great for Dominions.
For several reasons:
1. With the Shadowsword in the list, you're basically playing with a 1500 army otherwise. In order to pack as many units in and with Immolators taking a price jump since last edition, we had to pack more flamers than metlas.
2. Shadowsword, exorcists and limited meltas is a decent source of anti-elite firepower.
3. Flamers are actually very flexible and under-rated guns. They auto-hit flyers (seemingly the current competitive meta) and they auto-hit on Overwatch. They are also good against another competitive meta army - the horde.
1. With the Shadowsword in the list, you're basically playing with a 1500 army otherwise. In order to pack as many units in and with Immolators taking a price jump since last edition, we had to pack more flamers than metlas.
2. Shadowsword, exorcists and limited meltas is a decent source of anti-elite firepower.
3. Flamers are actually very flexible and under-rated guns. They auto-hit flyers (seemingly the current competitive meta) and they auto-hit on Overwatch. They are also good against another competitive meta army - the horde.
Have you looked at repressors, they are tailor made for Dominions and are cheaper?
It just feels like you can get a lot more fire power/units out of Dominions with Melta/Combi-Plasma and SB on the BSS. Even with auto-hitting, SB have been out performing flamers in everything I've seen and can't get outcharged at 9.5 inches.
I guess we'll see how it turns out.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2017/07/24 17:13:40
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
jy2 wrote: Repressors will be the next evolution of SabrX's Sisters. On that, both SabrX and I agree.
I will suggest to him Dominions with your loadout. He is still experimenting at this point.
Another neat trick with repressors, if you don't mind double loading transports
Repressors with 2 SB and HF 5 Doms with 4 Melta, Combi-Plasma on Sup
5 Doms with 4 SB and SB on Sup
Drop the SB doms out for midfield control and keep the Meltas in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll also say that I'm very interested in the guard superheavies now that I have seen you use them. Maybe I'll pick one up one of these days.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/24 17:22:53
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2017/07/24 19:10:45
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
Hey jy2! Remember me haha? Well I'm back and I started Nids. I might have to throw some Nid ideas off your head one of these days. I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.
Wow I have to say seeing the Shadowsword it just sticks out like a really big crutch. JY2 I hope you really stick it to him!
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2017/07/24 21:39:31
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
Wi1ikers wrote: Hey jy2! Remember me haha? Well I'm back and I started Nids. I might have to throw some Nid ideas off your head one of these days. I have no idea what I'm doing anymore.
What's up playa!
Good to hear from you again Will, it's been a while. Glad to see you back into 40K.
After reading the Tyranid material - both GW and FW - and after playing even 1 game, I can tell you this. Tyranids will be a challenge to play on the competitive end. They do not have any obvious super-builds, especially a build to compete with the other top-table tournament builds. The new Tyranids, IMO, is not a top-tier army. They are probably a mid to lower-upper tier army at best. However, they could be a lot of fun to play and potentially very rewarding too if you have success with them.
Good luck, and hope to see you in some events in the future. Just PM with your ideas or questions.
jy2 wrote: Repressors will be the next evolution of SabrX's Sisters. On that, both SabrX and I agree.
I will suggest to him Dominions with your loadout. He is still experimenting at this point.
Another neat trick with repressors, if you don't mind double loading transports
Repressors with 2 SB and HF 5 Doms with 4 Melta, Combi-Plasma on Sup
5 Doms with 4 SB and SB on Sup
Drop the SB doms out for midfield control and keep the Meltas in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll also say that I'm very interested in the guard superheavies now that I have seen you use them. Maybe I'll pick one up one of these days.
Awesome! Going to tell SabrX about your tips.
I haven't play-tested the other Baneblade-variants, but the Shadowsword sticks out to me as the best Titan-killer, which was my intent on running him in my army (and recommending him to my friend). There is a niche for Titan-killers and the Shadowsword is one of the best that the Imperials have to offer at the sub-500-pt category. Throw in more twin heavy bolters and lascannons and it becames an all-around All-star threat to hordes, elite units and Titans as well.
Primark G wrote: Wow I have to say seeing the Shadowsword it just sticks out like a really big crutch. JY2 I hope you really stick it to him!
Thanks! As much as I like the Shadowsword, I hope to be able to kill it in this game.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/24 21:44:59
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2017/07/25 00:43:19
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
Just noticed your old Zoanthropes....love them...I have the bodies of 3 but the heads got used in a conversion long ago and lost to the warp. Nice to see them again.
2017/07/25 01:58:54
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
GW's rulebook FAQ has an explicit question/answer on this issue. You can take 1 dedicated transport per non-dedicated transport unit that is in the detachment. So the list is totally fine.
Timeshadow wrote: Just noticed your old Zoanthropes....love them...I have the bodies of 3 but the heads got used in a conversion long ago and lost to the warp. Nice to see them again.
Thanks. Yeah, I've got mostly the older Zoanthropes. Though I do have the new Zoanthrope as well in case we need to use it to check for LOS in the game.
GW's rulebook FAQ has an explicit question/answer on this issue. You can take 1 dedicated transport per non-dedicated transport unit that is in the detachment. So the list is totally fine.
Great! Thanks. Next time, I'll double-check the FAQ's first. Forgot to do so in this case.
I feel like this game highlights best the weakness of ITC's ruling on first turn; I forget who mentioned it in a previous thread, but the knee-jerk fix ITC implemented really seems to favor horde armies even further. Only a +1 on the roll-off isn't a huge incentive for non-horde armies, and without first turn non-horde armies are disadvantaged even further - like in this game, even without the Mawloc and your faster units, you were on him in turn 2 before he could really do much about it.
Just food for thought - I wonder how differently the game would go if you guys replayed it but SabrX got first turn.
Love your batreps either way, though!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Other thought: SabrX might want to try a Hellhammer instead of a Shadowsword. Hellhammer cannon is nearly as good as the Volcano cannon, but you get 2d6 shots that cause 3 damage each rather than d6 shots for 2d6 damage plus more attendant weapons on the basic platform (demolisher cannon, autocannon, and - what I'm sure is the main selling point of the hull - one whole entire lasgun! ).
Just seemed like the Shadowsword's comparatively lower ROF output wasn't helping - when his dice weren't sabotaging him!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 12:18:59
2017/07/27 13:51:41
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
Thanks for the batrep. SabrX really needed some bubble wrap to discourage all those first turn charges. Pure sisters can do it pretty cheaply with BSS, or he could do what I do and take 'redemptionists' (conscripts) to bubble wrap and protect.
I'm really not a fan of exorcists because of their lack of faith and it seemed like faith didn't really play a roll here. He should have had two a turn basically (2+ and Celestine), but I didn't see a lot of mention. Was this forgetting to use them or you just didn't mention them?
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2017/07/27 18:03:12
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
GhostRecon wrote: I feel like this game highlights best the weakness of ITC's ruling on first turn; I forget who mentioned it in a previous thread, but the knee-jerk fix ITC implemented really seems to favor horde armies even further. Only a +1 on the roll-off isn't a huge incentive for non-horde armies, and without first turn non-horde armies are disadvantaged even further - like in this game, even without the Mawloc and your faster units, you were on him in turn 2 before he could really do much about it.
Just food for thought - I wonder how differently the game would go if you guys replayed it but SabrX got first turn.
Love your batreps either way, though!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Other thought: SabrX might want to try a Hellhammer instead of a Shadowsword. Hellhammer cannon is nearly as good as the Volcano cannon, but you get 2d6 shots that cause 3 damage each rather than d6 shots for 2d6 damage plus more attendant weapons on the basic platform (demolisher cannon, autocannon, and - what I'm sure is the main selling point of the hull - one whole entire lasgun! ).
Just seemed like the Shadowsword's comparatively lower ROF output wasn't helping - when his dice weren't sabotaging him!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed my reports.
On the flip-side, you have 6 Raven lists in certain non-ITC events pre-FAQ that almost always went first and got in their alpha-strike. Personally, I like the ITC ruling. RAW can be exploited as you can design your list to go first without much repercussion. With the ITC ruling, you are never fully sure whether you are guaranteed your alpha-strike. This actually gives the non-alpha-strike army a fighting chance. Otherwise, it becomes an unfun battle when you have to go up against an alpha-strike army that almost always went first.
This game nowadays is influenced so much by whoever wins the roll to go 1st. Had SabrX went first, the game could have potentially gone a full 180 degrees with his army dominating.
In my experience, the Shadowsword usually performs better than it did in this game. It was just that in this game, SabrX was rolling below average for his SS. In spite of that, however, it still managed to kill a Trygon, Flyrant and participated in wounding a lot of my other units (Carnifexes, Mawloc, Raveners, Zoanthrope, Tyrant Guards). I do have the Hellhammer. I might give it a try in the future, but the reason why I chose the SS was because 1) I wanted a Knight/Titan-killer and 2) the SS was cheaper.
pretre wrote: Thanks for the batrep. SabrX really needed some bubble wrap to discourage all those first turn charges. Pure sisters can do it pretty cheaply with BSS, or he could do what I do and take 'redemptionists' (conscripts) to bubble wrap and protect.
I'm really not a fan of exorcists because of their lack of faith and it seemed like faith didn't really play a roll here. He should have had two a turn basically (2+ and Celestine), but I didn't see a lot of mention. Was this forgetting to use them or you just didn't mention them?
3 changes SabrX is thinking about the next time he runs Sisters:
1. Repressors over Immolators.
2. Conscript bubble-wrap unit.
3. Running Retributors over Exorcists (or at least replace one of them) to take advantage of Acts of Faith.
He was rolling for his AoF each turn (also, we were both using Command Points throughout the game). He was also re-rolling 1's to hit for units within 6" of the Canoness (i.e. the Exorcists). It's just that I didn't mention it unless it was significant. Besides the T1 shooting by his Exorcist (which shouldn't have happened), AoF didn't have that great of an impact to my army. Maybe a couple of wounds here or there. Also, it was because he was losing his Sisters quickly to my bugs and so was having less and less opportunities to use them. However, he is working on ways to better utilize his AoF in the future (I recommended the Retributors).
In this game, SabrX was not rolling well for his Acts of Faith. He wasn't rolling well for the Shadowsword. However, his flamers were extremely good. Throughout the game, he was rolling high for those flamer hits and they were hurting my bugs even in Overwatch.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:04:47
3 changes SabrX is thinking about the next time he runs Sisters:
1. Repressors over Immolators.
2. Conscript bubble-wrap unit.
3. Running Retributors over Exorcists (or at least replace one of them) to take advantage of Acts of Faith.
These are all solid thoughts and I highly recommend them.
He was rolling for his AoF each turn (also, we were both using Command Points throughout the game). He was also re-rolling 1's to hit for units within 6" of the Canoness (i.e. the Exorcists). It's just that I didn't mention it unless it was significant. Besides the T1 shooting by his Exorcist (which shouldn't have happened), AoF didn't have that great of an impact to my army. Maybe a couple of wounds here or there. Also, it was because he was losing his Sisters quickly to my bugs and so was having less and less opportunities to use them. However, he is working on ways to better utilize his AoF in the future (I recommended the Retributors).
In this game, SabrX was not rolling well for his Acts of Faith. He wasn't rolling well for the Shadowsword. However, his flamers were extremely good. Throughout the game, he was rolling high for those flamer hits and they were hurting my bugs even in Overwatch.
A key part of faith is not just the extra shooting, but using the AOF fight phase to get Celestine out of a combat and charging something else if she's stuck in or just giving her an extra move or assault. Also, double tapping with Dominions is pretty huge. Anyways, still a great bat rep.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
2017/07/27 19:35:52
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
I think the batrep is a good example of how a house rule can unbalance the game. I would like to see a rematch where sisters go first.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2017/07/28 02:16:16
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
Yeah, I'm on the same page, I don't like the first turn thing. ITC has a history of knee-jerking things, and this does seem to be up there.
I did notice one part where you mentioned Sabre's Cannoness consolidating away from your models, back into cover.
Unless the Sisters have some rule that allow this, I'm pretty sure that was wrong. If you opt to take your 3" consolidation, it has to be towards the nearest enemy unit.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/07/28 03:52:06
Subject: 2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
A key part of faith is not just the extra shooting, but using the AOF fight phase to get Celestine out of a combat and charging something else if she's stuck in or just giving her an extra move or assault. Also, double tapping with Dominions is pretty huge. Anyways, still a great bat rep.
Thanks! Yeah, I think with a little more practice, SabrX should get better at using Acts of Faith, but for his very 1st game, it wasn't so bad. At least he remembered to use it every turn (though he did roll several 1's when attempting to use AoF).
Primark G wrote: I think the batrep is a good example of how a house rule can unbalance the game. I would like to see a rematch where sisters go first.
I'd say that if my opponent had the Initiative, his army would have had the advantage in the game. That's what I'm seeing in a lot of games. As long as your list is decently designed, going 1st matters for many armies.
djones520 wrote: Yeah, I'm on the same page, I don't like the first turn thing. ITC has a history of knee-jerking things, and this does seem to be up there.
I did notice one part where you mentioned Sabre's Cannoness consolidating away from your models, back into cover.
Unless the Sisters have some rule that allow this, I'm pretty sure that was wrong. If you opt to take your 3" consolidation, it has to be towards the nearest enemy unit.
Ok, thanks for pointing it out. I was not aware of this.
djones520 wrote: Yeah, I'm on the same page, I don't like the first turn thing. ITC has a history of knee-jerking things, and this does seem to be up there.
I did notice one part where you mentioned Sabre's Cannoness consolidating away from your models, back into cover.
Unless the Sisters have some rule that allow this, I'm pretty sure that was wrong. If you opt to take your 3" consolidation, it has to be towards the nearest enemy unit.
Ok, thanks for pointing it out. I was not aware of this.
Both Pile-in and Consolidation have the same requirement - 3" move, but has to end nearer to the closest enemy model.
Also, was reading the SoB's index section - any reason he hasn't included Imagifiers? 40pts for a 4w Sister who gives a 50% chance to generate an additional Act of Faith for a unit within 6" seems pretty good. Obviously and admittedly not a Sisters player, though.
2017/07/29 02:41:09
Subject: Re:2000 The Return of Hive Fleet Pandora - Tyranids vs Adepta Sororitas with Shadowsword
Wow, that was a brutal match. I learned a lot about my army's strengths and weaknesses after playing this game.
There isn't much I can do against Hive Guards shooting outside of TLOS. They were pretty vicious! Jy2 was lucky going first. His reserve elements kept me tied in my own table quarter. Assault units are pretty good at shutting down shooting elements by being within an inch.
Vehicles are much more resilient with the high wounds count, toughness, and armor save. I'm surprised how long it took Jy2 to pop all my Immolators. Mechanized infantry is still relevant in the current meta for surviving alpha strikes. Alpha strike is more relevant in 8th Edition than past editions.
I may consider sniper characters in the future to deal with pesky buff characters such as Jy2's Malanthrope. I also need conscript blobs to pillow fort against assault elements.
Special thanks to Jy2 to my first 8th edition game and showing me the ropes.
Saint Celestine & Gemini: A Saint Celestine is one of the best units in the SoB arsenal. Free AoF test, +1 invulnerable save, and solid close combat performance. A must have in any SoB army! Don't leave home without her!
Canoness: A- Reliable meltagun-platform with re-roll 1's bubble is pretty good. She's more of a support element. Not tanky or proficient in close combat as Saint Celestine, but still very useful.
DominionsA Retaining their "scout" move from the previous edition and spamming special range weapons makes them one of the best units in the new rulebook. A single Dominion cost 1 point extra over a single Battle Sister. Seems like a good upgrade to me. Combined with Acts of Faith and they can dish out a lot of damage (assuming they are disembarked). There's also new core rule FoC that allows spamming Fast Attack choices. I may spam more Dominion units in the future. I'll definitely look into using Repressors over Immolators. Mobile pill-box sounds fun.
Immolator: B Immolators with double HF now do 2D6 Str5 AP-1 with no -1 hit modifiers after moving. They are also much more resilient than before. I was surprised how many of my Immolators survived Jy2's alpha strike in this game. Sure one of the drawbacks to fielding most vehicles is not being able to shoot if an enemy model is within an inch. However, any unit declaring their assault against them has to eat 2D6HF from overwatch.
I'd give Immolators a higher score if it weren't for their expensive points cost.
Battle Sisters: A- The new split fire rules makes TAC builds more flexible. Battle Sisters are still relevant for the Battalion Detachment - 3 Command Points. Their inexpensive points cost makes it easier to go MSU.
Exorcist: C Mediocre performance in this game. Jy2 reserve elements diminish their effectiveness. They aren't reliable source of damage output and are points heavy. D6 hits and -1 to BS if they move is mediocre. D4 damage makes them even more random.
I suggest save your points and invest in Retributors or meltagun upgrades on other SoB units.
Shadowsword: A+ Shadowsword is bristling with firepower. Its Volcano Cannon dished out a lot of damage throughout the game. It easily destroyed Monstrous Creatures. On top of that, it provides my Sisters army Lascannons, which were more useful and cheaper than the Exorcists. In the future, may upgrade mine to quad sponsons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/29 02:43:16
- Jy2). I stopped playing them in 6th and didn't touch them at all in 7th Edition. With 8th Edition, majority of the armies were debuffed while Sisters of Battle received a boost from the new Acts of Faith allowing free out-of-phase actions. Meltaguns and flamers are trending, which Sisters have plenty of.
He then whiffs completely. Let me tell you. Hitting on 4's and wounding on 5's for a big nasty like the Carnifex really sucks.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
