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So you have to roll all the original dice - does this mean when you roll due to spending a command point as well - as in no more rolling one dice to boost roll etc ?

Cheers

RichJ wrote:
So you have to roll all the original dice - does this mean when you roll due to spending a command point as well - as in no more rolling one dice to boost roll etc ?

Cheers

No, because the Stratagem is not "Re-roll something", it's "Reroll any single dice". It could do with an FAQ to clarify if you can use it on one of a multi-dice roll at all tbh.

I think the FAQ covers that already:

Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’

I added the Bold which should cover the Stratagem reroll.

 alextroy wrote:
I think the FAQ covers that already:

Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’

I added the Bold which should cover the Stratagem reroll.

It all hinges on what the word "single" allows you to do in the stratagem. Is it saying you can re-roll any one dice even if it's part of a multi-dice roll, or is it saying you can re-roll a roll that is a single dice.

It seems to very clearly say that you can re-roll any single dice, not that you can re-roll a roll that is a single dice. Like, that's just a direct quote.

Dionysodorus wrote:
It seems to very clearly say that you can re-roll any single dice, not that you can re-roll a roll that is a single dice. Like, that's just a direct quote.

Yeah but English grammar allows both interpretations to be valid.

I think you're looking for a problem that doesn't exist, BaconCatBug.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I think you're looking for a problem that doesn't exist, BaconCatBug.

No, that would be the "You can't fire assault weapons after advancing" problem.

In any case, I am happy to say I can re-roll one of my charge dice with the Stratagem, I just think it can validly be argued both ways.

It is pretty clear, dude. You *could* argue it but doubt you'd find many willing opponents after a while... ;-)

I originally asked because it isn't clear with the clarification - they state they use dice to mean one or more die - the stratagem says any one dice which certainly seems to imply one die can be rolled out of a group of dice. BUT then the clarification says unless otherwise stated it has to be them all.... I am presuming that this includes the stratagem re-roll but would just like it confirmed.

As far as I can see looking at something like the Wulfen reroll charges - if I need an 8 and roll a 6 & 1 I could use the Wulfen reroll to reroll both dice OR spend a CP to reroll a single die - in this case the 1.

Just looking for an affirmative

Let's break this down...

‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again.

This is a set up for understanding the rule, not the rule itself. In other words, "Pay attention! Here's how to understand these rules!"

If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.)

So if you roll two dice to receive a sum (i.e. Psychic Manifestation)

then, unless otherwise stated,

Unless we tell you otherwise.

you must roll all of those dice again.

Re-roll all dice for that roll.

You can never re-roll a dice more than once,

So good luck cause you can't keep re-rolling the dice.

and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’

You re-roll before adding modifiers, so if you fail on a 2 and roll a 3 with a minus 1 modifier, you don't re-roll.

Any questions?

While I agree that they clearly are saying reroll all the dice unless otherwise stated, I kind of see the point in Bacon's argument. However, "dice" is plural, not singular. So the "single dice" could mean a set of dice as well.

They need to answer this question and specifically address this concern.

 3orangewhips wrote:
While I agree that they clearly are saying reroll all the dice unless otherwise stated, I kind of see the point in Bacon's argument. However, "dice" is plural, not singular. So the "single dice" could mean a set of dice as well.

They need to answer this question and specifically address this concern.

From my experience, the British have begun using "dice" as both plural and singular. This topic according to Oxford:

"Historically, dice is the plural of die, but in modern standard English dice is both the singular and the plural: throw the dice could mean a reference to either one or more than one dice."

Citation: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dice

yeah, I'm also going with "single dice" = 1 thing that has n sides that you roll around a table once to determine a random natural number between (and including) 1 and n. It's a single one, not a pair, not a bunch, not a lot, not a metric fuckton - it's a single one.

I think the main point of this was to say that if you're rerolling charges

You always reroll both dice

 Talamare wrote:
I think the main point of this was to say that if you're rerolling charges

You always reroll both dice

No it was asking if when you use a command point to reroll which says any one dice if you can reroll just one - as opposed to getting a charge reroll (or whatever roll with multiple dice) where you would have to roll all of them...

Just wanted clarification that the stratagem roll is one of the 'unless it says otherwise' situations

It's to prevent something I have been doing with my purfiers once they get low on numbers.

I like to spend my CP to reroll my psychic roll when I am down to 1 purifier/strike squad member left in a surrounded squad. Especially if there are a lot of units around them.

Say I roll 1 and 6 on my smite check. I will spend a CP to reroll the 1 hoping for a 6. If a perils of the warp with 1 guy left, I will do a 1d3 mortal wounds to every single unit within 6" of him. That is far more then he could ever hope to do in single combat.

Youn wrote:
It's to prevent something I have been doing with my purfiers once they get low on numbers.

I like to spend my CP to reroll my psychic roll when I am down to 1 purifier/strike squad member left in a surrounded squad. Especially if there are a lot of units around them.

Say I roll 1 and 6 on my smite check. I will spend a CP to reroll the 1 hoping for a 6. If a perils of the warp with 1 guy left, I will do a 1d3 mortal wounds to every single unit within 6" of him. That is far more then he could ever hope to do in single combat.

That's legal because using a CP allows you to "Re-roll any single dice." not dice roll. So if you roll a 1, and a 6 on a psychic check you can spend a CP to re-roll the 1. The FAQ on re-rolls applies to abilities that allow you to re-roll dice rolls. Such as Orks can re-roll their charge roll to do so means they have to re-roll both 2D6 and cannot simply re-roll 1 of the dice.

To my knowledge stratagems have not been FAQ to change the wording.

Basically, If a rule allows you to re-roll the "roll" (i.e. the whole roll, not just a single dice within the roll) than you must re-roll all dice involved.
Rules that allow a unit to "re-roll charge rolls" or "re-roll psychic tests" would thus be required to re-roll all dice involved in the roll.

The "re-roll a single dice" stratagem, however, would still allow you to re-roll a single dice for a charge roll or psychic test, because it is specifically allowing you to re-roll a single dice, not the roll itself

-

If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then,unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again

It would sound to me that since the stratagem doesn't state specifically if I wish to use it to reroll 1 charge dice I must must "roll all of those dice again."

U02dah4 wrote:
If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then,unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again

It would sound to me that since the stratagem doesn't state specifically if I wish to use it to reroll 1 charge dice I must must "roll all of those dice again."

No, because the rule is specifically (and only) allows you to re-roll a single dice (not the 'result' of a multi-dice roll). This is exactly what 'otherwise stated' means.

No because the reroll section of the core rules states that "some rules allow you to reroll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again" so you have permission to reroll some or all the dice if you have permission to reroll a dice but the faq means you must reroll then all. There is no statement saying that it overides the core rules

U02dah4 wrote:
No because the reroll section of the core rules states that "some rules allow you to reroll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again" so you have permission to reroll some or all the dice if you have permission to reroll a dice but the faq means you must reroll then all. There is no statement saying that it overides the core rules

But the Command Point Stratagem rules do NOT SAY you get to 're-roll a dice roll', so therefore the rules you quoted absolutely do not apply to it.

I don't understand what is so hard about this. There are rules that allow you re-roll a RESULT of a multi-dice roll (rules that allow you re-roll failed charges or morale tests, for example) and in those cases the errata'd rule makes it clear that you must re-roll all the dice.

But even within that rule it makes it clear that if the rule specifies otherwise, exactly as we have with the command point stratagem, that it is possible for a single dice to be re-rolled.

If you don't think its ever possible for just a single dice from a multi-dice roll to be re-rolled, then what exactly do you think they mean by 'unless otherwise stated'?

So when you reroll a dice your not altering it's roll? I would say that whenever you reroll a dice you are rerolling a dice roll.

Maybe a rules thread involving 13 people implies that it isn't clear to everyone

In light of the errata, the intent here seems really obvious. If you can re-roll a "roll", such as a "charge roll" or a "hit roll" or a "psychic test", then you roll all of the dice again. If you are allowed to re-roll a single dice (not a single "dice roll"), then you re-roll a single physical dice -- one cube. So the stratagem or a Farseer's runes allow the re-rolling of single dice which are contributing, along with other dice, to the results of certain kinds of rolls.

I don't think it's crazy to say that when you re-roll a dice you are re-rolling a dice roll. Every roll of a dice is a dice roll. But when you re-roll one of the dice involved in a charge roll you're not re-rolling the charge roll. You obtain the result of a charge roll by rolling two individual dice and summing the results of those individual rolls, and it's one of those individual rolls that you're re-rolling.

Wow this is really a debate? SMH, seems really clear.

hachieman2000 wrote:
Wow this is really a debate? SMH, seems really clear.

Hey, I for one would love for it to be unambiguous. Using a CP to reroll the 1 of a 1+6 Charge roll for my orks would be a no-brainer, but as it stands it's not totally clear.

I agree that it's not clear. Unless otherwise stated can easily refer to rules that permit someone to reroll one or both dice specifically, like how old Fleet worked. It's like how the old editions used Turn without much differentiation for game turns or player turns. Now they're repeatedly using the word dice without any clarification as to the definition, so players must repeatedly apply their own definition of what it means according to the language. Which each player may look at differently.


Legal documents at least use the same predefined words over and over consistently so there's no confusion. They do that because YES it is easy for someone to not understand what you're referring to if you're using the same word in multiple contexts.

Back to iirc 5th at least the explicitly stated turn as player turn, no ambiguity.

Reroll one dice is not the same as reroll one rice roll.
Former allows one single six sided object to be rolled again. The latter requires all dice used in the roll to be rolled again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Back to iirc 5th at least the explicitly stated turn as player turn, no ambiguity.

Definitely 6th, because they changed what they meant by 'turn' (player turn or game turn) between those two editions IIRC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Reroll one dice is not the same as reroll one rice roll.
Former allows one single six sided object to be rolled again. The latter requires all dice used in the roll to be rolled again.

Agreed.