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in 40k

I mean he isn't the most powerful character, the primarchs, the emperor, malcador are more powerful than him

The Custodes i would wager are more powerful than him, but many call him a big MS all the time

Because he's none of those things, and yet he's touted around like one.

Essentially, he's just the "Chapter Master" of a rather elite group of Space Marines, with psychic powers, but he's made out like he's this unstoppable warrior, like the Custodes and Primarchs, who are a whole tier above what he should be.

Again, being a Mary Sue doesn't necessarily mean the best at EVERYTHING, it's more just being good at everything and having no downsides as a character. Draigo as a character is literally "he's so pure that he can walk around in the Warp untouched, and he killed Mortarion singlehanded, and he did this, and he did that, and he's the biggest and bestest of the Grey Knights who are the bestest Space Marines, who are like the bestest of all the Imperium's soldiers...".

The Primarchs are given some degree of characterisation, flaws, personalities. They're also the actual Emperor's sons, hence their power. The Custodes are made on such a calibre, they're capable of going toe to toe with Primarchs. Malcador's not a warrior. He's a massively gifted psyker, and the Emperor's right hand man, but that's about it. He doesn't go around killing Primarchs. The Emperor is an actual god. It's kind of expected that he'd be powerful.

Draigo is essentially just a beefier Chapter Master, yet he's made out to be Primarch tier.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Okay, before I dive into this, let me say all of his criticism stems from his 5th Edition (ie, original) version, and that his 7th Edition (and presumably 8th) are much revised and toned down.


So his main criticism is that he walks around the warp beating the living gak out of every Daemon he comes across, they don't even bother attacking him now. He pops up now and then to lend a hand then gets sucked back in again. His purity and psychic power is beyond measure.

On its own, this isn't toooooo bad. I say too bad as its personal preference. Some people argue that walking around the warp isn't possible but its the warp, possible and impossible are irrelevant terms. What rubs people the wrong way is that this is one of 3 aspects that lead towards a Mary Sue Character. Mary Sue characters being "He's the leader and because of that he's superior in every single possible way to everyone else in the same group." Being that GK are noted as "the best Space Marines possible," this makes him the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the entire Imperium. Here are the two other aspects.


In addition to his aspect detailed above, he is also touted to be one of the best fighters in the GK history, notably, defeating Mortarion in single combat. The audio drama Mortarion's Heart was written to combat the backlash, because in the original form it sounded like he just smashed a Daemon Primarch with ease, which is goddamn awful. The audio drama clarified and made it more negotiable with many factors lending Draigo help in the feat, but people have longer memories than GW like to believe. In addition, his first incarnation got much beefier stats than any other chapter master. WS7, Str and T 5, 4 wounds, TDA, Storm Shield, Eternal Warrior. Bear in mind that this is late 5th Edition, where other Chapter Masters had WS6, W3 and came with Power Armour and Iron Halos. Plus he ignored all armour saves in CC, and was Str 10 vs Daemons and Psykers, could instant death them even though they were EW. Basically a lot. He was a beefy combat character. Very very beefy. That has been toned down in 7th Ed, to WS7, Str+T 4. He lost grenades and his sword toned down. He still has his 4 wounds and EW, but all CMs have W4 these days, and most take 2+ 3++ and EW anyway. But as I say, people have long memories.

The third aspect is that he is, to be blunt, "the greatest GK in history." He learned more Words of Power than anyone except the first Chapter Lord, (who was later revealed to be a sort of Magnus-possessed Space Marine thing, its complicated and confusing). He rose faster than any other GK. He beat Daemons where Captains and Grand Masters struggled. He was unanimously declared SGM when his predecessor was killed.



Now, any single of those aspects would be fine. SOMEONE has got to be the best fighter out of everybody. SOMEONE has to be the record holding best GK ever. SOMEONE could be pure enough to do what he does. But all together it makes him seem overly overly perfect. And even though the Warp wandering was retconned out of existance entirely, people still have long memories. Even though he's been toned down in combat ability, people still think back to when he was the same Str and T as modern Custodes, even though that version never existed alongside those Custodes.


The modern incarnation of Draigo is actually, not at all Mary Sue. He is representative of Mankind as a whole. He had all the potential, he had just reached the peak of existance and was poised to usher in a new dawn. And just like Mankind's great crusade, Chaos intervened and struck down a promising future and condemned him to a ironic and cruel fate.


But as I say, people have long memories, and even though his fate is no longer canon, or even detailed, people still remember.

GW special characters by definition are Mary Sues. All, of them.

Thats pretty typical in fantasy universes, like Warcraft, DC or Marvel. They are universes where the powerlevel is so high, the easiest way to make someone "special" is making them ignore the rules that apply to their race/faction/coherence, ultra powerfull, or with unique and special powers/habilities.

Making characters that are just your normal John but are interesting, need books and novels to flesh their character. Kaldor Draigo is just another "This guy is really good!" Codex Character with only 1-2 pages of lore to tell you how awesome he is.

Asdruval Vect is a much more of a Gary Stu but you aren't gonna ear anyone complaint about him. Because Matt Ward and stuff.

 Galas wrote:
GW special characters by definition are Mary Sues. All, of them.

Thats pretty typical in fantasy universes, like Warcraft, DC or Marvel. They are universes where the powerlevel is so high, the easiest way to make someone "special" is making them ignore the rules that apply to their race/faction/coherence, ultra powerfull, or with unique and special powers/habilities.

Making characters that are just your normal John but are interesting, need books and novels to flesh their character. Kaldor Draigo is just another "This guy is really good!" Codex Character with only 1-2 pages of lore to tell you how awesome he is.

Asdruval Vect is a much more of a Gary Stu but you aren't gonna ear anyone complaint about him. Because Matt Ward and stuff.

No, just no... Being a Mary Sue has much more to it than that. See deadshot's post.

Pretty sure when you live in the warp slaying daemons - and no one else can do that - pretty safe to say he has ascended to a new level of existence. He is essentially god level at this point. Or at the very least - hes Hercules.

Draigo is viewed as a mary sue basically because he was written badly. He was supposed to be a Sisyphean character. He's able to survive the Warp and defeat his Daemonic opponents but he's trapped there. He resists all temptation yet he can't do anything other than fighting reforming Daemons. All the damage he supposedly does is simply reformed. He performs his duty endlessly yet achieves nothing except for those rare instances he is thrust back into the Materium during Daemonic incursions. Even then it's kind of tragic. He may, for a brief time, communicate with other people, perhaps of his own order, for a handful of minutes or hours or days whilst he destroys the very things allowing him to do so and cuts himself off from humanity again. And those moments are scattered through an eternity. He could fight for a thousand years in the Warp then pop out a year from his last time in Warpspace, or he could end up coming out thousands of years later with everyone he knew long dead and he might never even be able to find out. He's forever forced to remove himself from any human connection whilst he fights and eternal, essentially pointless war. And he's so consumed by his duty he can't do anything else other than carry on. He will never know peace, or rest, or contentment.

However, in 5th Edition Matt Ward focussed more on his exploits rather than the tragedy and hopelessness of his position.

It's because he DOES more than some other snowflake's favorite unknown founding non-codex adherent Chapter that nobody cares about.

He's not particularly interesting outside his faith being his shield in the Warp, but he doesn't HAVE to be interesting outside that.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Draigo is viewed as a mary sue basically because he was written badly. He was supposed to be a Sisyphean character. He's able to survive the Warp and defeat his Daemonic opponents but he's trapped there. He resists all temptation yet he can't do anything other than fighting reforming Daemons. All the damage he supposedly does is simply reformed. He performs his duty endlessly yet achieves nothing except for those rare instances he is thrust back into the Materium during Daemonic incursions. Even then it's kind of tragic. He may, for a brief time, communicate with other people, perhaps of his own order, for a handful of minutes or hours or days whilst he destroys the very things allowing him to do so and cuts himself off from humanity again. And those moments are scattered through an eternity. He could fight for a thousand years in the Warp then pop out a year from his last time in Warpspace, or he could end up coming out thousands of years later with everyone he knew long dead and he might never even be able to find out. He's forever forced to remove himself from any human connection whilst he fights and eternal, essentially pointless war. And he's so consumed by his duty he can't do anything else other than carry on. He will never know peace, or rest, or contentment.

However, in 5th Edition Matt Ward focussed more on his exploits rather than the tragedy and hopelessness of his position.

Driago isn't trapped in the warp - hes there because he wants to be. An eternity slaying daemons is literally a wet dream for an marine. Marines are probably incapable of feeling sadness anyways.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Driago isn't trapped in the warp - hes there because he wants to be. An eternity slaying daemons is literally a wet dream for an marine. Marines are probably incapable of feeling sadness anyways.

He is. He's trapped by M'kar and by extension, Chaos. If the Ruinous Powers really wanted him gone would it be impossible for them to override a Greater Daemon's curse?

Conversely, Marines are all about brotherhood. Depriving one of any real ability to experience would be a horrific experience. They're still capable of emotions otherwise they wouldn't be falling to the Ruinous Powers.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Driago isn't trapped in the warp - hes there because he wants to be. An eternity slaying daemons is literally a wet dream for an marine. Marines are probably incapable of feeling sadness anyways.

He is. He's trapped by M'kar and by extension, Chaos. If the Ruinous Powers really wanted him gone would it be impossible for them to override a Greater Daemon's curse?

Conversely, Marines are all about brotherhood. Depriving one of any real ability to experience would be a horrific experience. They're still capable of emotions otherwise they wouldn't be falling to the Ruinous Powers.

They also live for war and Grey Knights should be used to isolation. It's hardly that bad.

I like it when one of the chaos demon books implies slaneesh has curpted him. Can't remember the book. 6th ddition demons?

There was a time when he could hit at s7 ap2 with instant death, whilst enjoying a 2++ save. That definitely made him one of the most powerful characters in the game at the time.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's because he DOES more than some other snowflake's favorite unknown founding non-codex adherent Chapter that nobody cares about.

He's not particularly interesting outside his faith being his shield in the Warp, but he doesn't HAVE to be interesting outside that.

I disagree on that. I agree much of the backlash on the ULTRAMARINES, boils down to that, Dragio however has some definate aspects that I can see being issues. getting back to the OPs point,

He isn't the emperor, or a Primarch no, which is honestly kinda the problem. the Primarchs, the emperor etc, they're considered the pinacle so obviously they can get away with a fair bit of over the top stuff "because Primarch" (and even then people grumble about Gulliman) Dragio actually BEAT a Primarch.

Consider this, as far as we know, NO OTHER BEING IN 40K has "single handledly" beat a Deamon Primarch. Gulliman was defeated by Fulgrim when he tried, for example.

BrianDavion wrote:
Consider this, as far as we know, NO OTHER BEING IN 40K has "single handledly" beat a Deamon Primarch. Gulliman was defeated by Fulgrim when he tried, for example.

By comparison, in the 1st Armageddon war, it took an entire company of Grey Knights to take down Angron.

 Niiai wrote:
I like it when one of the chaos demon books implies slaneesh has curpted him. Can't remember the book. 6th ddition demons?

It was implied that silver armored dude walked into slanesshes realm not that it WAS draigo

But basicly Draigo is already a special snowflake to the marines standard and on top of that runs around killing daemons forever and also apparently beat and then carved a name into a daemon primarchs heart.

that kinda nonsense is what makes him a mary sue.

The mary-sue-ness came almost exclusively from the 5th edition fluff written by matt ward.

In essence he was a paragon among paragons, so pure that he was incorruptible even in the realm of the chaos gods. He also went around beating up Primarchs and carving his name into their chests, rejecting all temptations of slaanesh, and even his "trapped in the warp" thing was used to his advantage, where he apparently gained the near-mythic ability to teleport to wherever the Grey Knights needed him to roflstomp the current daemon incursion of the day, before disappearing back into the warp.

Every other bit of fluff written about him is far less fanboyish in what he did, namely they showed that those feats not only came at great personal and spiritual cost, but ultimately meant nothing because nothing is a constant in the Warp. Even his teleporting around was shown to be more opportunistic rather than him just magically knowing when he was needed.

The reason the fanboying was found to be exceedingly bad was because he was specifically created by the guy fanboying about him, which made everything about the guy feel like Matt Ward patting himself on the back for writing the most pure character to ever grace warhammer.

When 7th edition rolled around, a lot of his exploits were expanded upon or dropped entirely. Another thing was that it more or less confirmed that very few people actually know about his exploits.

I think he's an amusing character. That doesn't mean he's even among my favorite 40k characters, though.

First of all, it's completely possible for someone like Draigo to exist in warp like he does. Space marines have great will. Imperial psykers are required to have great will*. Grey Knights are space marines and also psykers. And among Grey Knights there are some who are beyond "regular" Grey Knights, ie. special characters, ie. Kaldor Draigo. Warp is shaped by willpower and psychic might so it stands to reason that Draigo is able to cut a bloody swath through the warp exactly like he does. Warp is a dangerous place but it's not instant death or unconquerable. See "Warp Survival 101 with Leman Russ" for more details.

However... while Draigo can survive and kill unchallenged there, he won't be changing that place alone. That is the point of his character.

*Otherwise they will be executed.

RedCommander wrote:
I think he's an amusing character. That doesn't mean he's even among my favorite 40k characters, though.

First of all, it's completely possible for someone like Draigo to exist in warp like he does. Space marines have great will. Imperial psykers are required to have great will*. Grey Knights are space marines and also psykers. And among Grey Knights there are some who are beyond "regular" Grey Knights, ie. special characters, ie. Kaldor Draigo. Warp is shaped by willpower and psychic might so it stands to reason that Draigo is able to cut a bloody swath through the warp exactly like he does. Warp is a dangerous place but it's not instant death or unconquerable. See "Warp Survival 101 with Leman Russ" for more details.

However... while Draigo can survive and kill unchallenged there, he won't be changing that place alone. That is the point of his character.

*Otherwise they will be executed.

I mean come on. he is a space marine that beats up a daemon primarch. how many even named characters can do that to a normal primarch.

 Desubot wrote:

RedCommander wrote:
I think he's an amusing character. That doesn't mean he's even among my favorite 40k characters, though.

First of all, it's completely possible for someone like Draigo to exist in warp like he does. Space marines have great will. Imperial psykers are required to have great will*. Grey Knights are space marines and also psykers. And among Grey Knights there are some who are beyond "regular" Grey Knights, ie. special characters, ie. Kaldor Draigo. Warp is shaped by willpower and psychic might so it stands to reason that Draigo is able to cut a bloody swath through the warp exactly like he does. Warp is a dangerous place but it's not instant death or unconquerable. See "Warp Survival 101 with Leman Russ" for more details.

However... while Draigo can survive and kill unchallenged there, he won't be changing that place alone. That is the point of his character.

*Otherwise they will be executed.

I mean come on. he is a space marine that beats up a daemon primarch. how many even named characters can do that to a normal primarch.

.. maybe Abbaddon, MAYBE. when Morty comes out I'm gonna definatly be comping stats to see if "even under ideal conditions" Dragio could beat Morty

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
GW special characters by definition are Mary Sues. All, of them.

Thats pretty typical in fantasy universes, like Warcraft, DC or Marvel. They are universes where the powerlevel is so high, the easiest way to make someone "special" is making them ignore the rules that apply to their race/faction/coherence, ultra powerfull, or with unique and special powers/habilities.

Making characters that are just your normal John but are interesting, need books and novels to flesh their character. Kaldor Draigo is just another "This guy is really good!" Codex Character with only 1-2 pages of lore to tell you how awesome he is.

Asdruval Vect is a much more of a Gary Stu but you aren't gonna ear anyone complaint about him. Because Matt Ward and stuff.

No, just no... Being a Mary Sue has much more to it than that. See deadshot's post.

Deatshot is very right in all what he has said. But thats doesn't negates my point. 80% of the characters in GW are complete Mary Sues. Someones are less flagrant that Khaldor Draigo, I agree, but they are still characters where their only characteristic is being "The BEST of the BEST", with 0 personality or other traits or even flaws.

And I don't say this to defend his codex page in 5th edition by Matt Ward. That was awful. But people on internet is ignorant and as Deadshot said just remember what they want to remember. They ignore all the fluff and lore that has come after 5th edition toning down Kaldor to a much reasonable level. They just "mmumumuh Matt Ward", because people loves to drink the hyperbole kool-aid of the internet.

Because 5th edition's fluff was a thing. The internet does not forget; the internet does not forgive.

I don't actually blame Ward entirely for this. He wasn't the only one that worked on this. In fact, a lot of blame actually falls on the other two writers for the bad fluff, too. He just got unfortunate enough to get stuck with the popular opinion of being the one to blame.

He was the awful cherry on a codex full of Super Robo Baby Carriers and Khorne Grey Knights. While the Codex did have a few good bits, it was one of the things that actually stopped me playing. And I played Grey Knights until that Codex was released. Perhaps if there hadn't been so much to hate in that Codex, Draigo would have gotten off a little lighter...but there was.

But yeah, basically he brutally murdered a Primarch and carved his mate's name on his heart. He set fire to Nurgle's Garden and smashed up lots of other Chaos stuff. And somehow Chaos itself couldn't stop him, just undo what he did when he sauntered off again.

The Mortation thing really got the goat of a lot of people. Mortation is a 10,000 year old deamon primarch. Even assuming he'd been hit by a Nova Cannon, he should have reduced a single Grey Knight to a smear, and that's assuming his bodyguard was all dead.

It took some major retconning to make the story even begin to make sense without making Mortation look like the biggest wuss in existence.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
He was the awful cherry on a codex full of Super Robo Baby Carriers and Khorne Grey Knights. While the Codex did have a few good bits, it was one of the things that actually stopped me playing. And I played Grey Knights until that Codex was released. Perhaps if there hadn't been so much to hate in that Codex, Draigo would have gotten off a little lighter...but there was.

But yeah, basically he brutally murdered a Primarch and carved his mate's name on his heart. He set fire to Nurgle's Garden and smashed up lots of other Chaos stuff. And somehow Chaos itself couldn't stop him, just undo what he did when he sauntered off again.

The Mortation thing really got the goat of a lot of people. Mortation is a 10,000 year old deamon primarch. Even assuming he'd been hit by a Nova Cannon, he should have reduced a single Grey Knight to a smear, and that's assuming his bodyguard was all dead.

It took some major retconning to make the story even begin to make sense without making Mortation look like the biggest wuss in existence.

This retc9nning I've already mentioned and I'm gonna bring it up again because people like to ignore things.

First off, Mortarion isnt a Primarch but a Daemon Primarch. So many advantages, but also limitations come with that. In particular, Draigo was armed with the name the Emperor intended for him, which became his True Name. True names are the most powerful weapon against a Daemon. It can used to enslave or bind a Daemon against its will and to your own, or in this case, stun Mortarion long enough to strike him down. Another disadvantage being that he's weak to words of banishment and Daemonbane weaponry like every other Daemon.

Finally, Draigo has a destiny. There is a story in 7th Ed codex and I cant pick it out because my copy is 100 miles away, but if someone can cite it for me please that'd be great. In this story, a Lord of Change (Fateweaver maybe?) launches invasion and it is Draigo, as a lowly Battle Brother, who survives to cut down the Daemon where all others; captains, paladins, terminators,are cut down around him. The exact reason being that the Daemon couldnt see him, appearing as "a black shadow across its vision" because "his life was promised to another." Draigo's fate in the warp was bound to Mkar and so, no other Daemon is able to kill him. Not Fateweaver and not Mortarion either, because destiny is a real thing in the Warp and it is binding.


This also feeds into Draigo's inability to be killed or corrupted by the Warp. As his fate is tied to Mkar, and Mkar was given True Death by another's hand, Draigo's fate is left in tatters and unable to break the curse.

The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Again, misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the fluff. Look at my last post and mention of how his fate is tied to Mkar's. Other Daemon's couldnt harm him because his destiny is tied to that one Daemon. Its not his martial skill but the Warp itself keeping him alive by its own nature. Besides, what do the Chaos Gods gain by killing him? That's the entire point, his actions are pointless. Tzeentch's fortress rebuilds itself, Nurgle's gardens regrow, and apart from that one Bloodthirster he destroyed and has since been retconned, all the Daemons he kills reform. He's a cold sore. He shows up from time to time and is pretty annoying but at the end of the day he's not important or dangerous.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Like I said earlier in the thread. Driago is actually a god. GK geenseed is made directly from the emperor. It is quite possible that Driago is Big E - reincarnated - perhaps unknowingly so. It's the only way to describe his power.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The whole being able to live indefinitely in the warp just killing any daemon he came across just went beyond belief. It was as if no entity in the warp, which is the place where all the Daemons and the chaos gods were at their strongest, could even touch Draigo.

And we know about how there are supposedly uncountable daemons in the warp, plus all those greater daemons and daemon princes and such.

So, imagine a space marine shows up in the warp, and he is somehow so mighty (and so tireless), nothing can defeat him. He stomps greater daemons with ease, and he can't even be defeated by the uncountable numbers that daemon armies have in the warp. Its not just one mighty feat, its the idea that he has spent an impossibly long time in the warp doing nothing but killing daemons of all shapes and sizes. And he didn't "survive" in the daemon realm, not like a hunter that hides from stronger predators and hunts weaker ones. Draigo just goes from one place to another and kills whatever daemon shows its face in front of him... He is basically untouchable because that's how the lore makes him out to be.

If this doesn't sound like Mary Sue, then nothing is Mary Sue already lol.

Like I said earlier in the thread. Driago is actually a god. GK geenseed is made directly from the emperor. It is quite possible that Driago is Big E - reincarnated - perhaps unknowingly so. It's the only way to describe his power.

If he was really a god he'd be killed by weaklings all the time. As a 40k god deserves apparently.