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Consider me on-board with the idea CSM lists need to fundamentally change to be competitive. Feels like we are too elite-heavy and need to change to keep up with other armies.

Played an Ultramarines / IG list over the weekend and got trounced. My opponent brought Gulliman, 4 conscript squads and some Primaris marines. Admittedly, my list was sub-par, but this was the first game I played where I felt like my opponent really had 8th edition mechanics figured out.

Not being able to shoot at Gulliman was hard. He was always a few inches away from being the closest model and used conscripts for shields. Beast in cc, fights like a Titan.

A model this powerful should not have a way to advance up the board unchallenged. Celestine is similar in terms of what she can do, and I suspect there will be others. CSMs really need a sniper unit to provide *some* defense against this tactic, when one of the big HQs hits our squads it's devastating.

My Noise Marines and Berzerkers did a fine job with the conscripts, mowing 2 of their squads. But these units cover so much space on the board. Seeing how it's possible to position them so that, once a couple go down, there's no way to engage the others. The following describes what I mean here. Distance between the squads is great than 24 inches.

CCC      CCC
               G
CCC      CCC

           NM KB

Heldrakes lack the offensive firepower to deal with large mobs like this. We need some other flyer that can close the gap while still bringing some shooting. I own a Fire Raptor which would have been hell on the Conscripts, but did not have it for this game. Would rather see it in a standard CSM list instead of only being available to people able to pay FW prices.

You can also bring a Primarch to the game. Shield him with cultists and you are ready to go.

FW has flyers for chaos

I expect to see some relic for our Demon Princes so they might do the job.
I'm not sure other armies use Snipers to kill Guilliman either.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I expect to see some relic for our Demon Princes so they might do the job.
I'm not sure other armies use Snipers to kill Guilliman either.

I don't think a sniper needs to kill him, but it would be nice if there was a way to take some wounds off before he gets to charge. Trying to think of a comparable offensive unit that can move up the board without being shot at, the only one that came to mind is Celestine. Even Abaddon is not this good in cc.

With regards to flyers, I recognize FW has several (some of which I own.) They are fairly expensive, both in terms of points and dollars. Not sure a Fire Raptor is viable for most people, and FW is no longer selling Hell Blades.

Would prefer to see a CSM flyer in the standard Codex other than the Heldrake. It's just too situational these days, I don't find many reasons for wanting to take one.

Guilliman+conscripts sounds like a competitive list, most armies would struggle.

Chaos needs more than snipers. Flyers chaos have plenty of

The core game needs a rewrite

Chaos Space Marines are my main army for 7th edition. Personally, my experience with them was that unit-for-unit, they weren't as bad as most people argued they were. Their biggest issues were related to their FOC (and this had been an ongoing issue since 4th edition Chaos). All the point-efficient ranged firepower options were in Heavy Support, while all of the "fast" units were in Fast Attack. All of their Troops and Elites moved at infantry speed and were only efficient at close range. By contrast, Space Marines could do the following:

Transports: Razorbacks provided "1+1", giving meaningful support from whichever slot you fielded them in (the closest Chaos could do was slap Havoc Launchers on anything with treads). Drop Pods offered superior deployment, and Land Speeder Storms were arguably one of the most underrated units of the 7e Space Marine codex.

Troops: Other than having access to Razorbacks, Marines could take Bike Troops with a simple FOC swap, and had access to a unit with innate Infiltrate, Scout, and Move through Cover.

Elites: For ranged support, Marines had access to Sternguard and Rifleman Dreadnoughts. For speed, they had access to Bike Command Squads (and Vanguard Vets FWIW).

Fast Attack: Standalone DTs were an option, as were Attack Bike Squads, Land Speeders, and Stormtalons. You had a mix of options here.

Stormraven: Although not necessarily competitive due to a variety of factors, the luxury of having a Flyer in Heavy Support as well as Fast Attack was also useful for Space Marines if they wanted to go down that route.

In short, although Marines had the advantages of ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics over their traitorous counterparts, their main advantage was their options made it far easier to build an army without having to worry what would happen when they "ran out of slots." Needless to say, when Traitor's Hate came out and made it so I didn't have to choose between Bikers or Spawn (though I could always go "slot in a Gorepack, whee"), I became a far happier camper.

Chaos Marines do need a fundamental rework to allow them to scale up, and be able to fill a Battalion without being pointlessly taxed.

Look up the 'Eyrine Cults' section of the Forge World Chaos Index.

More flyers than anyone could ever want, and pretty damn awesome to boot.

I know I’m in the minority with this opinion, but I feel that FW shouldn’t be allowed in friendly games unless both sides agree on it. FW was originally supposed to be used for larger point games to have large, epic battles. Today FW has gotten to the point where they are just providing random units regardless if an army needs them or not just because some designer wanted to make a cool model. Unfortunately for armies like CSM they are things that fill holes in the army but for armies like SM they are just pure excess that grossly overpower the faction.

So when someone says CSM needs X and Y and the first response is always Forgeworld, the logical next question is why should I need Forgeworld to make my army work?

Nvs wrote:
I know I’m in the minority with this opinion, but I feel that FW shouldn’t be allowed in friendly games unless both sides agree on it. FW was originally supposed to be used for larger point games to have large, epic battles. Today FW has gotten to the point where they are just providing random units regardless if an army needs them or not just because some designer wanted to make a cool model. Unfortunately for armies like CSM they are things that fill holes in the army but for armies like SM they are just pure excess that grossly overpower the faction.

So when someone says CSM needs X and Y and the first response is always Forgeworld, the logical next question is why should I need Forgeworld to make my army work?

This opens up a whole new can of worms, but suffice to say: Name one Space Marine unit that is more overpowered than a Space Marine unit from GW. If you like, we can take the conversation to PMs.

Nvs wrote:
I know I’m in the minority with this opinion, but I feel that FW shouldn’t be allowed in friendly games unless both sides agree on it. FW was originally supposed to be used for larger point games to have large, epic battles. Today FW has gotten to the point where they are just providing random units regardless if an army needs them or not just because some designer wanted to make a cool model. Unfortunately for armies like CSM they are things that fill holes in the army but for armies like SM they are just pure excess that grossly overpower the faction.

So when someone says CSM needs X and Y and the first response is always Forgeworld, the logical next question is why should I need Forgeworld to make my army work?

You can always refuse playing someone who fields an imba Forgeworld victory-button. Just calmly explain that you do not have the funds for a pay-to-win competition, and would prefer playing 40k with standard lists.

Forgeworld units are a part of the game as any other, even the superheavies since 6th edition.
You should always speak to your opponent before the game. If he wants to bring 200Conscripts against your casual list, it won't be fun. But don't say: "Oh, you can't bring a Leviathan, but my 180 Brimstones are totally okay."

From what I've seen in Battle Reports, Chaos appears to have effective alternatives to Snipers. Flyers, strangely enough, tend to be far more effective than Snipers at killing characters due to their ability to cover large distances with their movement.

Warp Talons with an Icon of Wrath are very effective character killers. The Heldrake with Baleflamer, while expensive, is very scary to face due to its durability and killing potential at both range and in melee.

Forgeworld is fine if you use units to spice up a thematic list or you use a unit to plug a gap in your army that the codex can't fill. It becomes an issue when you spam FW or if you're using AAA FW units in a strong list from an already more-than-well-rounded army (SM's or previously Eldar in 7th). then it becomes pay-to-win. But the issue there is with the player, not FW or GW prioritising one faction over another. Players who abuse FW units will abuse anything for an edge. They're the players nobody likes to play. If they're not spamming Rapier Quad Bolters, they're spamming Super Heavies, or an all Knight list at 1500pts, or in 7th ed Wraithknights and Warp Spiders everywhere.

The problem is the player and GW is correct when it looks at the game from a fluff/narrative perspective and not a WAAC perspective. Outside of tournies (which is a completely different beast from "regular" gaming) I don't get why people choose this hobby to indulge their need for victory. With video games and a host of other, easier competitive pursuits, I don't get why people choose a hobby based primarily on miniature building and painting to scratch that itch.

9/10 players, outside of tournies and practising for such, would much rather see a themed army than a WAAC list. And this is where FW shines - to add cool units to your cool army. Sure some of them are stronger than codex units, but when you're picking units because you like them or they fit a theme then for every AAA FW unit you pick there's likely something else codex you're not picking because it doesn't suit the vision you have for that army.

The issue many players have with FW is exactly the same as the issue they have with spam list builders, flavour-of-the-month players and other similar WAAC players.

Now when talking tournie player, the rules are different. Here people will spam whatever units they've mathematically calculated to be the most efficient at achieving a specific objective. If FW is OP, they'll play FW. If flyers are OP, they'll play flyers. At this level it doesn't matter what's OP, because whatever is the best players will figure it out and spam it. There's always gonna be something that's best, even if it changes month by month (see MOBA game balancing as an example). At this level so long as you try to fix anything that's clearly broken and abusive (like flyer lists that were recently nerfed) you shouldn't worry about whether it's FW or conscripts that are OP because something will always be OP. Every nerf to one unit promotes another to be better, you can never achieve true balance, only shift the meta around constantly.

So TLDR, in regular games with regular people that aren't WAAC don't sweat FW or so-called "OP" units. Friendly games should be between friendly players, not casual vs WAAC.

 Strg Alt wrote:
You can also bring a Primarch to the game. Shield him with cultists and you are ready to go.

Chaos Primarchs are Daemons with more than 9 wounds. They cannot be shielded by Cultists or anyone else. You are free to shoot Magnus to death all you want.

Chaos has access to snipers via the Renegade Marauder Squads. A 5 man squad with 2 snipers is only 34 points.

Just remember Chaos has access to two of the more competitive horde armies in the game with Cultists or Brimstones. Not to mention Magnus and Knights. The problem is not that Chaos is not competitive the problem is that you did not have a conversation with your opponent before the game about how competitive you would be building your list. If someone said to me, "Hey I'm bringing Noises Marines and some Bezerkers." I'd know not to put conscript spam or 4 knights and Guilliman on the table. Anyone who is not willing to have this conversation prior to a game probably wont be a very fun pick up game opponent.

I wouldn't mind some cool options we could finally take for cultists.

Maybe some somewhat demonic sniper rifles like FFG's old Ghibelline Howling Rifles. Or Khornate heavy bolter/stubbers that if they kill things, cause wounds to nearby character's for being cowardly as the blood would splash nearby.

Nurgle weapons that spread toxins out in an AoE.. Interesting choices.

 greenterror88 wrote:
Just remember Chaos has access to two of the more competitive horde armies in the game with Cultists or Brimstones. Not to mention Magnus and Knights. The problem is not that Chaos is not competitive the problem is that you did not have a conversation with your opponent before the game about how competitive you would be building your list. If someone said to me, "Hey I'm bringing Noises Marines and some Bezerkers." I'd know not to put conscript spam or 4 knights and Guilliman on the table. Anyone who is not willing to have this conversation prior to a game probably wont be a very fun pick up game opponent.

I'm trying to understand in what world cultist spam is a more competitive list than noise marines or berzerkers.

Sometime down the road, I expect we'll see Chosen given a sniper weapon of some kind.

Chaos has infernal gaze for sniping characters as well.

My friend had some success sniping characters with a helldrake (incidentally, that's a flyer that isn't mentioned, what gives?)

Chosen should have the option for Sniper Rifles but GW seems to be going hardcore with their "No physical representation, no rules" thing. I'm thinking of sending a heartfelt email but that ain't gonna do any good.

 Bobthehero wrote:
My friend had some success sniping characters with a helldrake (incidentally, that's a flyer that isn't mentioned, what gives?)

I'm guessing the OP means actual planes. Heldrakes are technically fliers but for all intents and purposes they're mechanical monstrous creatures.

Granted, the fact remains that FW has you covered with Hell Talons and Fire Raptors.

Unless you were bringing 5 squads of snipers, I am not sure you could have killed Gulliman before he hit your lines. Don't forget there is a good chance Gulliman resurrects again even after you killed him once. Anyway, we will eventually get our own Primarchs. And those should be able to stand up to Gulliman 1 v 1. Look at Magnus for example. He can definitely take on Gulliman. You need Primarch to handle another Primarch.

Yeah, and Sisters need plastic models too, doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

 techsoldaten wrote:

My Noise Marines and Berzerkers did a fine job with the conscripts, mowing 2 of their squads. But these units cover so much space on the board. Seeing how it's possible to position them so that, once a couple go down, there's no way to engage the others. The following describes what I mean here. Distance between the squads is great than 24 inches.

Heldrakes lack the offensive firepower to deal with large mobs like this. We need some other flyer that can close the gap while still bringing some shooting. I own a Fire Raptor which would have been hell on the Conscripts, but did not have it for this game. Would rather see it in a standard CSM list instead of only being available to people able to pay FW prices.

Why would Chaos get ranged weapons other than the Lascannon? That really goes agaisnt the chaos norms, I can only see Iron Warriors using Ranged Weaponry to fight battles, the others use Fists&Cuffs or Mindbullets for the T Sons.

Dont worry about Guilliman though,
Most likley we will be getting a couple of Daemon Primarchs/Primachs to combat him. Most likley:
Loyalists: The Lion and Corax.....maybe Vulkan
Traitor: Mortarion "Duh", Lograr and Fulgrim

Ill be mad though if they do bring them back and make Guilliman all around better though.

KingLetterman wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

My Noise Marines and Berzerkers did a fine job with the conscripts, mowing 2 of their squads. But these units cover so much space on the board. Seeing how it's possible to position them so that, once a couple go down, there's no way to engage the others. The following describes what I mean here. Distance between the squads is great than 24 inches.

Heldrakes lack the offensive firepower to deal with large mobs like this. We need some other flyer that can close the gap while still bringing some shooting. I own a Fire Raptor which would have been hell on the Conscripts, but did not have it for this game. Would rather see it in a standard CSM list instead of only being available to people able to pay FW prices.

Why would Chaos get ranged weapons other than the Lascannon? That really goes agaisnt the chaos norms, I can only see Iron Warriors using Ranged Weaponry to fight battles, the others use Fists&Cuffs or Mindbullets for the T Sons.

Dont worry about Guilliman though,
Most likley we will be getting a couple of Daemon Primarchs/Primachs to combat him. Most likley:
Loyalists: The Lion and Corax.....maybe Vulkan
Traitor: Mortarion "Duh", Lograr and Fulgrim

Ill be mad though if they do bring them back and make Guilliman all around better though.

Who is Lograr? ...what happened to Angron?

Also, I'd argue that chaos are the bad guys. If sniper rifles and ranged weaponry help them achieve their goal, then why not?

So do:

Sisters,

Ad Mech -( and they need transports and all the cool stuff thats in 30k)

Genestealer Cults and snipers seems a fun fit.

None of these armies are Marines so are not going to get them.