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Hey,

This issue has come up in most of my games, and it seems there isn't much of a consensus on how this actually works.

To me, it seems obvious that the charging unit must end it's charge move within 1" of the charged unit, and without ending your move on the level with the charged squad it is impossible to do this. Many opponents have cited wobbly model syndrome, even to the point of saying their model is floating in the air next to the level. Some have cited they just need to roll enough to go up, but if there is no space to fit, they stay on the bottom floor but count as locked.

For wobbly model syndrome to apply, I assumed the model did need to be able to be placed, not "5% of my base fits, wobbly model holds up the other 95%" for the second point, I don't think there's any rules at all to support it at all, it's just the idea of the player.

How have you all been playing this, and more importantly how are you all interpreting the actual rules related to this?

We've been playing it similar to barricades, if you are within a level and there is space you are good to go.

I solve this by simply not playing with people who fill an entire floor and then tell me that their units are now immune to being charged. Works great.

If the situation is reversed, I generally just tell my opponent that if they roll high enough, we'll count the models as having made the charge and that they're just climbing a rope or ladder or something... i.e., Wobbly Model Syndrome.

I'm OK with house rules that change the game cause you don't like the actual rules if you're honest that's what you're doing. So it seems from the two replies, you both agree the rules dont allow this, but have made custom rules to make it work for you.

How does this help a tournament player?

Stepping into a New Edition wrote:Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot
completely end its move on a floor of ruins when
attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move
to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome
guidelines in the core rules to identify with your
opponent where your model’s actual location is.

Linky

Drager wrote:

Stepping into a New Edition wrote:Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot
completely end its move on a floor of ruins when
attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move
to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome
guidelines in the core rules to identify with your
opponent where your model’s actual location is.

Linky

The issue, of course, with Wobbly Model Syndrome is that your opponent can simply not agree to your proposed final position. WMS is a terrible bandaid for a legitimate design flaw. In a competitive environment, there is no incentive for your opponent to agree to allow your models to 'float in space' next to his ruined floor. This has always been an issue.

Wobbly Model Syndrome
"Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location. If, later on, your enemy is considering shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so they can check if it is visible."

The argument against WMS is that it only applies to 'cases like this'... i.e., cases where you are able to 'delicately balance the model in place', but are afraid that it will fall over. It's generally impossible to delicately balance a model in place floating next to a full ruins floor. Leaving the model in a safer location also requires that both players agree. It's not very sportsmanlike, but completely in keeping with the rules to say that you disagree with your opponent wanting to place a model where he isn't able to even delicately balance it.

Having said all that, my policy is still to walk away from anyone who tries to create charge immune units by refusing to agree to a WMS situation. It's pretty awful sportsmanship, even in an ultra competitive environment.

The final 7th edition FAQ also commented on this.

Q: How do you handle situations where you are attempting to charge a model that is on top of something, where there is no room for a model to be in base contact?
A: The ‘Wobbly Model Syndrome’ rule applies – place the model as near as possible, and keep a note of its actual position. It is assumed to be in base contact with the other model.

Of course this FAQ is currently no longer valid, but for me it was a good indication designers did not intend units to become immune from assault by something as trivial as standing on top of a box or filling up a floor in a ruin.

The charge rules needs to be changed to within 1" horizontally, or within 3" vertically.

 Kriswall wrote:


If the situation is reversed, I generally just tell my opponent that if they roll high enough, we'll count the models as having made the charge and that they're just climbing a rope or ladder or something... i.e., Wobbly Model Syndrome.

to be fair, it actually makes some sense that they would be more immune from punching. climbing up a ladder 1 at a time into a group of foes who will just shoot your face off as soon as you charge up there. If they made grenade mechanics not suck entirely, that would be the answer, to clear out space to charge, but grenade mechanics suck entirely.

p5freak wrote:
The charge rules needs to be changed to within 1" horizontally, or within 3" vertically.

3" vertically wouldn't help much at all since you're measuring bases to base and many ruins will have more than a 3" gap between floors.

My poorly thought out and untested fix would be to just consider all multi-level terrain pieces to be a sort of building. If you're inside the piece of terrain, you're counted as being in base to base contact with everyone else in the piece of terrain during the Fight phase. This would mean that you don't have to charge, but also that you can't just leave the terrain without falling back. Everything other than Pistols and Assault weapons get a -1 to hit when fired at other units inside the same piece of multi-level terrain. I feel like that would do a decent job of abstracting the whole 'running around and fighting inside a building'. Think of movies where someone is fighting inside a building. People get thrown through walls, run up and down stairs while firing pistols or small machine guns. Nobody fires a rocket launcher at the dude down the hall.

Of course, this probably belongs in Proposed Rules at this point.

 Kriswall wrote:

Drager wrote:

Stepping into a New Edition wrote:Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot
completely end its move on a floor of ruins when
attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move
to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome
guidelines in the core rules to identify with your
opponent where your model’s actual location is.

Linky

The issue, of course, with Wobbly Model Syndrome is that your opponent can simply not agree to your proposed final position. WMS is a terrible bandaid for a legitimate design flaw. In a competitive environment, there is no incentive for your opponent to agree to allow your models to 'float in space' next to his ruined floor. This has always been an issue.

Wobbly Model Syndrome
"Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as someone nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location. If, later on, your enemy is considering shooting the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so they can check if it is visible."

The argument against WMS is that it only applies to 'cases like this'... i.e., cases where you are able to 'delicately balance the model in place', but are afraid that it will fall over. It's generally impossible to delicately balance a model in place floating next to a full ruins floor. Leaving the model in a safer location also requires that both players agree. It's not very sportsmanlike, but completely in keeping with the rules to say that you disagree with your opponent wanting to place a model where he isn't able to even delicately balance it.

Having said all that, my policy is still to walk away from anyone who tries to create charge immune units by refusing to agree to a WMS situation. It's pretty awful sportsmanship, even in an ultra competitive environment.

I had a guy do this to me when I tried to charge up to his unit (with raptors no less, a unit with fly). made sure to apply that logic later on when he decided to charge me with the same unit (Which I think is why he told me I couldn't get to him) and I told him he couldn't as he couldn't move through my unit to occupy the little space I'd left in the corner under the overhanging floor.

This is why GW games should never be played competitively. I like warhammer played casually with friends it's good. Go to a tournament and it's just a headache.

Bottom line GW is never going to hammer out a solid ruleset. So just discuss it with your opponent before the game begins.

If I were running a tournament I would simply remove all ruins, and buildings from tables, and replace them with hills. As this is the only "fix" for this scenario that isn't going to lead to an argument when players are playing against people they don't know.
Conversely I've noticed most people have forgotten in this edition transfer is that ruins are no longer just area terrain models can just poke holes through the wall and shoot.
Thus when you are horded up on a 3 floor of a ruin with 2 windows, only the models that can actually see out of those windows can fire.

I've only once had a problem like this at a tourney. Happens now in casual games I find. Tournament players usually know what the ruling will be (or just quickly check with a judge) and the games go smooth.

This rule is a mess and needs an errata. I think this is the biggest hole in the 8th edition rules. Allowing models to hover via WMS fixes it, sure, but applying that same logic to all movement utterly breaks the game.