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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/02/legion-focus-night-lords-aug-2gw-homepage-post-2/

The big takeway I'm seeing though is this:

warhammer-community wrote:Why is this so powerful? Psychological and shock value. You declare this Stratagem AFTER your opponent has already started firing – meaning if they’ve decided to overcharge plasma weapons, suddenly their own models will be getting slain on a 2 or less. You’ll be able to catch powerful shooting units unawares with this one, and just having a Command Point spare at all times will mean your opponent is less likely to risk overcharging their weapons. With Hellblasters arriving on tabletops very soon, you’ll need defence against plasma, and this is a great way to get it.

Aka "it's not a bug, it's a stupid feature." Congrats GW.

What made me giggle about that sentence was them making the assumption that anyone super charges plasma against infantry.

So boardgamey ... Gimmicky nast.

I guess it's useful when they're shooting at your Night Lords...obliterators?

 Purifier wrote:
What made me giggle about that sentence was them making the assumption that anyone super charges plasma against infantry.

Plasma wounds on a 3+ vs T4, right? So you overcharge to wound on a 2+ for when you REALLY need to kill something dead.

 Purifier wrote:
What made me giggle about that sentence was them making the assumption that anyone super charges plasma against infantry.

If you don't have negative modifiers, and do have some kind of rerolls, wounding on 2s can be worth it. Plus, a lot of heavy infantry have 2 wounds, so you'd want to overcharge there as well.

LOL it doesn't function like that. When you target the unit they have to declare the stratagem. Then they will decide what weapons to use. What order to shoot them and so on. Realistically though - unless it's night-lord terminators - this will never come into play anyways.

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL it doesn't function like that. When you target the unit they have to declare the stratagem. Then they will decide what weapons to use. What order to shoot them and so on. Realistically though - unless it's night-lord terminators - this will never come into play anyways.

No. The article specifically says that you can declare it after they've declared their shots and attacks profiles. Hence the quote at the beginning.

 Purifier wrote:
What made me giggle about that sentence was them making the assumption that anyone super charges plasma against infantry.

Hehe. Basically. Maybe you would against a terminator army. But that army would probably suck, so there's not much of a reason to supercharge anyway.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
What made me giggle about that sentence was them making the assumption that anyone super charges plasma against infantry.

Plasma wounds on a 3+ vs T4, right? So you overcharge to wound on a 2+ for when you REALLY need to kill something dead.

You'd have to be reaaaaaally keen on killing it to risk taking out your own guys for a slightly better chance of success. Maybe in the final turn and this is your last chance to take the enemy off of that objective that you want to hold. And then it's like... sure, die. Just get the shots off.

 Purifier wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
What made me giggle about that sentence was them making the assumption that anyone super charges plasma against infantry.

Plasma wounds on a 3+ vs T4, right? So you overcharge to wound on a 2+ for when you REALLY need to kill something dead.

You'd have to be reaaaaaally keen on killing it to risk taking out your own guys for a slightly better chance of success. Maybe in the final turn and this is your last chance to take the enemy off of that objective that you want to hold. And then it's like... sure, die. Just get the shots off.

I thought if the model was slain you didn't get the shots?

 Purifier wrote:
What made me giggle about that sentence was them making the assumption that anyone super charges plasma against infantry.

Welllllllllll its not a bad idea against terminators or other multi wound models.

and some times you might want to against a hellbrute or other dread type models.

If you have rerolls of 1 to hit you have a 1/36 chance to kill yourself. That's really not much of a risk.

In fact, for every marine you lose to overcharging, you would kill 6.11 more marines.

Math:
With rerolls of 1 to hit:
36 bs3+ normal plasma shots kills 13.33 marines out of cover, and none of the shooters die.
36 bs3+ over charging plasma kill 19.44 marines out of cover, and 1 of the shooters dies.

Generally this seems worth doing to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conversely, if those 36 plasma shots went into the NL unit with the strat, 8 would die. So then it is suddenly not worth doing.

jcd386 wrote:
If you have rerolls of 1 to hit you have a 1/36 chance to kill yourself. That's really not much of a risk.

In fact, for every marine you lose to overcharging, you would kill 6.11 more marines.

Math:
With rerolls of 1 to hit:
36 bs3+ normal plasma shots kills 13.33 marines out of cover, and none of the shooters die.
36 bs3+ over charging plasma kill 19.44 marines out of cover, and 1 of the shooters dies.

Generally this seems worth doing to me.

Since rerolls are applied before hit mods, a -1 goes from (1/6)(1/6) = (1/36) to (1/6)(1/3) + (1/6) = 4/18, aka 8/36, aka an 8-fold increase in casualties.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Sorry i'm going to pause for a second.

Iron Warriors, and Night Lords, are actually getting traits of their own, instead of a giant "Chaos Space Marines" bubble of nothingness.

Are we really upset by this? It's cool that CSM are getting something here.

Lancelot185 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL it doesn't function like that. When you target the unit they have to declare the stratagem. Then they will decide what weapons to use. What order to shoot them and so on. Realistically though - unless it's night-lord terminators - this will never come into play anyways.

No. The article specifically says that you can declare it after they've declared their shots and attacks profiles. Hence the quote at the beginning.

This wouldn't be the first time they've got a rules interpetation wrong.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
If you have rerolls of 1 to hit you have a 1/36 chance to kill yourself. That's really not much of a risk.

In fact, for every marine you lose to overcharging, you would kill 6.11 more marines.

Math:
With rerolls of 1 to hit:
36 bs3+ normal plasma shots kills 13.33 marines out of cover, and none of the shooters die.
36 bs3+ over charging plasma kill 19.44 marines out of cover, and 1 of the shooters dies.

Generally this seems worth doing to me.

Since rerolls are applied before hit mods, a -1 goes from (1/6)(1/6) = (1/36) to (1/6)(1/3) + (1/6) = 4/18, aka 8/36, aka an 8-fold increase in casualties.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Exactly! So my point is generally you should overcharge against marines if you can reroll 1s, but not if you are at -1 to hit.

Also, when you consider how long marines in plasma range are likely to live one they get out of a transport to rapid fire (typically not long in my experience) it continues to be a good idea to normally overcharge if you don't have any negative modifiers, even if it does seem like a small upgrade.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sorry i'm going to pause for a second.

Iron Warriors, and Night Lords, are actually getting traits of their own, instead of a giant "Chaos Space Marines" bubble of nothingness.

Are we really upset by this? It's cool that CSM are getting something here.

I would hope people are not getting upset by it.

but i already know people will complain if their personal faction doesnt get the best of the best. even if its actually pretty good and a bonus you otherwise wouldnt of gotten in the first place.

Think you guys have forgotten that dreadnaughts and chapter tactics are a thing. In the case of chaos that'll be hellbrutes. You may very well want to supercharge plasma into hellbrutes, and they benefit from the same mechanics that infantry do in regards to CT's and stratagems. Stick a hellbrute in your enemies face and dare them to risk overcharging their plasma.

Demantiae wrote:
Think you guys have forgotten that dreadnaughts and chapter tactics are a thing. In the case of chaos that'll be hellbrutes. You may very well want to supercharge plasma into hellbrutes, and they benefit from the same mechanics that infantry do in regards to CT's and stratagems. Stick a hellbrute in your enemies face and dare them to risk overcharging their plasma.

The Stratagem only works on Infantry.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sorry i'm going to pause for a second.

Iron Warriors, and Night Lords, are actually getting traits of their own, instead of a giant "Chaos Space Marines" bubble of nothingness.

Are we really upset by this? It's cool that CSM are getting something here.

Hell, I think it's pretty cool. With a little luck, they may start doing this for all factions of races, ork klans, eldar craftworlds, guard regiments, maybe even nid fleets.

That's...........going to be a hell of a lot of little modifications to keep track of, but in theory that sounds pretty cool.

That is correct infantry only.

so it wont work on bikes (IIRC) or hellbrutes

the only time you would ever want to over charge them is probably on terminators, and characters (possibly obliterators and mutalators iirc) otherwise its not really worth risking it for the 2+ to wound.

Im more interested in the -3 ld for having 3 units near by a thing.

 Desubot wrote:
That is correct infantry only.

so it wont work on bikes (IIRC) or hellbrutes

the only time you would ever want to over charge them is probably on terminators, and characters (possibly obliterators and mutalators iirc) otherwise its not really worth risking it for the 2+ to wound.

Im more interested in the -3 ld for having 3 units near by a thing.

The Obliterators/Mutilators/Possessed would be a funny one in particular, because since they are Daemons, you can run Changeling behind them to make them -1 to be hit on top of that.

 Badablack wrote:
I guess it's useful when they're shooting at your Night Lords...obliterators?

Or Terminators, or Possessed (getting a 2W bump)

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
That is correct infantry only.

so it wont work on bikes (IIRC) or hellbrutes

the only time you would ever want to over charge them is probably on terminators, and characters (possibly obliterators and mutalators iirc) otherwise its not really worth risking it for the 2+ to wound.

Im more interested in the -3 ld for having 3 units near by a thing.

The Obliterators/Mutilators/Possessed would be a funny one in particular, because since they are Daemons, you can run Changeling behind them to make them -1 to be hit on top of that.

Oh baby.

also forgot about possessed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Lancelot185 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL it doesn't function like that. When you target the unit they have to declare the stratagem. Then they will decide what weapons to use. What order to shoot them and so on. Realistically though - unless it's night-lord terminators - this will never come into play anyways.

No. The article specifically says that you can declare it after they've declared their shots and attacks profiles. Hence the quote at the beginning.

This wouldn't be the first time they've got a rules interpetation wrong.

They write the rules. What are you talking about?

Lancelot185 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Lancelot185 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL it doesn't function like that. When you target the unit they have to declare the stratagem. Then they will decide what weapons to use. What order to shoot them and so on. Realistically though - unless it's night-lord terminators - this will never come into play anyways.

No. The article specifically says that you can declare it after they've declared their shots and attacks profiles. Hence the quote at the beginning.

This wouldn't be the first time they've got a rules interpetation wrong.

They write the rules. What are you talking about?

In one of their first twitch games, they rolled Disgustingly Resilient for Death Guard Defilers.

Even if you aren't relying on tricking an enemy into overcharging their plasma it's a great stratagem; all three Night Lords aspects seem good, a much better reveal than Iron Warriors got.

This is a really great one int he new book! I look forward to seeing Night Lords on the tables soon.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Lancelot185 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Lancelot185 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL it doesn't function like that. When you target the unit they have to declare the stratagem. Then they will decide what weapons to use. What order to shoot them and so on. Realistically though - unless it's night-lord terminators - this will never come into play anyways.

No. The article specifically says that you can declare it after they've declared their shots and attacks profiles. Hence the quote at the beginning.

This wouldn't be the first time they've got a rules interpetation wrong.

They write the rules. What are you talking about?

In one of their first twitch games, they rolled Disgustingly Resilient for Death Guard Defilers.

We could go on and on about things they have gotten wrong. It very well might be what GW decideds to rule on it with a FAQ but my point is just because you are reading it on the community website doesn't mean it's the way it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:
Even if you aren't relying on tricking an enemy into overcharging their plasma it's a great stratagem; all three Night Lords aspects seem good, a much better reveal than Iron Warriors got.

It's a baller stratagem. Whats best about it is that you can force it after they target you. So they can't just avoid shooting at you. You have to eat that -1.