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So it's another one of those gimmicky armies I've been musing about. I was wondering if an all-tank space marine army would be viable. As the AssCan Baal Predator can put out a hilarious amount of dakka, I would have to go with the Rhino Primaris as the HQ choice (and obviously a spearhead detachment). But with just predators (all three flavours), Vindicators and Whirlwinds, can it make a viable army? The AssCan Baal Pred can bring a lot of dakka for a relatively cheap price, the quad-las pred can bring down heavy armor, the Whirlwind if I recall can provide additional anti-infantry. Has anyone else given this a thought?

How about an UM army led by Guilliman and a maxed out number of Razorbacks with assault cannons in his bubble for rerolls. This is how SM is played atm.

I played against an all Space Marine Army at the beginning of the month.

He went first, and destroyed two of my Immolators. I then moved up, shot his tanks with my meltaguns, then engaged them in close combat using my remaining tanks, some non-melta-carrying Dominions, and Celestine. From that point onwards, he would fall back, I would fire my Meltas then return to combat, and this repeated until he ran out of tanks.

Yes, tank-companies that aren't superheavy this edition are awful.

They're simply too easy to lock in combat so they never get to fire their guns.

hmmm.

Well for the price of two predators I can get another baneblade.

Maybe I should make a superheavy company then.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
hmmm.

Well for the price of two predators I can get another baneblade.

Maybe I should make a superheavy company then.

I run that all the time!

3 Baneblades is very expensive, and over-emphasizes firepower while lacking the support to use it.

3 Stormswords is excellent and leaves plenty of points for support vehicles, which makes their firepower count for much more.

3 Stormhammers is the best I've run so far as they are cheap but their firepower is fantastic. A good compromise between the Stormsword's cheapness and the Baneblade's raw capabilities.

3 Shadowswords is ridiculous overkill against preferred targets and ridiculously impotent against other targets. They're expensive and overspecialized, though if you need AT in an otherwise conventional army there is no better option imo.

Those are all the companies I own, sadly I don't have a Stormlord company, a Banehammer company, etc. I have considered adding them, but it's rare for a regiment to have more than 12 superheavy tanks (according to pg 96 of the 5th ed. IG codex) and I am trying to own 1 entire regiment of IG, not two! Haha!

Yes I remember your Superheavy Company. I first saw it when I asked about a Space Marine Chapter. It's still legendary among my friends.

I was thinking of getting two more Baneblades (I actually have two already, but one is glued together. The other one remains unassembled but I got it for 70 bucks because a shop mispriced it and then put it on sale) and magnetizing them so I can change out whichever ones I wanna field.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Yes I remember your Superheavy Company. I first saw it when I asked about a Space Marine Chapter. It's still legendary among my friends.

I was thinking of getting two more Baneblades (I actually have two already, but one is glued together. The other one remains unassembled but I got it for 70 bucks because a shop mispriced it and then put it on sale) and magnetizing them so I can change out whichever ones I wanna field.

Always a good plan, magnets.

More on topic: I do think that real, full-on unsupported tank companies are bad this edition... which is a good thing. I think it reflects well on one of the fundamental principles of warfare, which is that tanks in close terrain have trouble with enemy infantry.

I think a rule could perhaps be added to reflect "back-scratching" as the USMC vehicles at Chosin Reservoir did to one another but as it stands, at least it's fundamentally true.

What's more, I like that superheavies have protection from it, partly for game-balance reasons but also partly because such a "land-battleship" style tank has never existed yet which was ergonomically friendly (though things like the BMPT-72 are bringing it back with enhanced computerization allowing for more efficient C4ISR than disasters like the T-35) and would likely better be able to endure being mobbed by ill-equipped enemy infantry.

You need some screening units (scouts)...

You might be able to make it work if you're a little more flexible with having a few basic troops in there. Some cheap Scout or Tac squads in Rhinos can give your other tanks some screen. Or you can use Repulsors, since they can Fly and can't be locked in combat. Then you could also add a few Dreads to protect those other tanks that might still get locked in combat. So, tank-only? Maybe not so great. Vehicle-only? Yeah, you could get away with that probably.

My friend tried this in a tournament and finished middle of the pack. His list was 3 Predators /w Quad-Las, some assault cannon Razorbacks, HQs / infantry & a storm raven.

He annihilated his first opponent in about 25-35 minutes. I looked over at his table and saw a handshake as my opponent started his psychic phase on bottom turn 1.

The next two games he died just as fast, though. He was hard-countered by meta Tau. And that's just the sad truth of it. Commanders will drop in and pop all your tanks easily and without effort. The following game he ran into Azrael, and 4++ means Lascannons don't have the volume of fire to justify their points.

His scores were 19/0/0.

You're setting yourself up to be hard countered.

On superheavy companies:

Don't. It only works if you're Imperial Knights or Imperial Guard. Space Marine Fellblades have the Relic special rule, which prevents a second one from being taken until you have 2 non-relic Lords of War. Space Marines non-relic Lords of War are: Terminus Ultra, Roboute Guilliman, and Thunderhawk Gunship.

Second, bringing 3 Baneblades is funny, once. After that, it pretty much ceases to be fun, because they don't do anything and everybody knows how to kill them.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
On superheavy companies:

Don't. It only works if you're Imperial Knights or Imperial Guard. Space Marine Fellblades have the Relic special rule, which prevents a second one from being taken until you have 2 non-relic Lords of War. Space Marines non-relic Lords of War are: Terminus Ultra, Roboute Guilliman, and Thunderhawk Gunship.

Second, bringing 3 Baneblades is funny, once. After that, it pretty much ceases to be fun, because they don't do anything. They either sit there and die, or you sit there and die. Usually the former, because they're not actually that good.

Ow, that hurts, Katherine.

You've clearly got a different meta than me, I've been winning consistently with IG superheavy tank companies, and people (myself included) seem to think it is fun. Stormhammers especially are ace!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
On superheavy companies:

Don't. It only works if you're Imperial Knights or Imperial Guard. Space Marine Fellblades have the Relic special rule, which prevents a second one from being taken until you have 2 non-relic Lords of War. Space Marines non-relic Lords of War are: Terminus Ultra, Roboute Guilliman, and Thunderhawk Gunship.

Second, bringing 3 Baneblades is funny, once. After that, it pretty much ceases to be fun, because they don't do anything. They either sit there and die, or you sit there and die. Usually the former, because they're not actually that good.

Ow, that hurts, Katherine.

You've clearly got a different meta than me, I've been winning consistently with IG superheavy tank companies, and people (myself included) seem to think it is fun. Stormhammers especially are ace!

I don't know anyone with a Forgeworld Stormhammer, but I myself have a Shadowsword and I know 2 other people with Shadowswords, 1 with a Stormlord, and 1 with a Vanilla Baneblade.

There are two rules to keep in mind that really hurt those big, super heavy tanks, which, if you don't play with, I guess could make them quite decent.
1: All shooting attacks for the activated unit are declared before any are resolved. This limits the number of things they can kill in a turn drastically, especially since only the Shadowsword really has a chance of killing more than 1 tank a turn.
2: They still take a -1 penalty to hit from moving for some reason, and they have BS4+. They only have to degrade to be little more than a nuisance.


If you have 1 super heavy tank and a lot of other stuff, that's really, really, really good. But 3? I think you're asking for trouble.


It's worth mention that the Baneblade's secondary battery can only kill about half a Rhino a turn.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
On superheavy companies:

Don't. It only works if you're Imperial Knights or Imperial Guard. Space Marine Fellblades have the Relic special rule, which prevents a second one from being taken until you have 2 non-relic Lords of War. Space Marines non-relic Lords of War are: Terminus Ultra, Roboute Guilliman, and Thunderhawk Gunship.

Second, bringing 3 Baneblades is funny, once. After that, it pretty much ceases to be fun, because they don't do anything. They either sit there and die, or you sit there and die. Usually the former, because they're not actually that good.

Ow, that hurts, Katherine.

You've clearly got a different meta than me, I've been winning consistently with IG superheavy tank companies, and people (myself included) seem to think it is fun. Stormhammers especially are ace!

I don't know anyone with a Forgeworld Stormhammer, but I myself have a Shadowsword and I know 2 other people with Shadowswords, 1 with a Stormlord, and 1 with a Vanilla Baneblade.

There are two rules to keep in mind that really hurt those big, super heavy tanks, which, if you don't play with, I guess could make them quite decent.
1: All shooting attacks for the activated unit are declared before any are resolved. This limits the number of things they can kill in a turn drastically, especially since only the Shadowsword really has a chance of killing more than 1 tank a turn.
2: They still take a -1 penalty to hit from moving for some reason, and they have BS4+. They only have to degrade to be little more than a nuisance.


If you have 1 super heavy tank and a lot of other stuff, that's really, really, really good. But 3? I think you're asking for trouble.

1) This isn't so bad if you learn the capabilities of the vehicles - the Stormhammer has 3 independent lascannons, which I usually fire at 1 target. If it's a tough target, I'll give it the twin battlecannon too, and if it's a really tough target, it can have the main gun + co-ax lascannon. If I'm fighting, say, 2 Rhinos, I'll give 3 lascannons to one, and then the twin battlecannon, main gun + co-axial lascannon to another. The 4 heavy bolters go wherever.

2) This is easy to mitigate. A Trojan lets them re-roll every gun to hit, and even absent that, the co-axial lascannon allows a Stormhammer to re-roll to-hit with its main gun. A Salamander can also give them +1. If you're willing to spend ~700 points (slightly less than what it costs for a Fellblade) you get BS 3+, re-rolls of to-hit rolls, 4 lascannons, 2 battlecannons, one baneblade cannon (sorta), and 4 heavy bolters. So you actually come out slightly ahead of the Fellblade for less points, in the firepower department. Spend an extra 15 and you get a 2+ armour save as well, though I know durability wasn't a concern of yours.

Also, with 3 tanks, that lets me keep one back and cover the other 2 which push into melee with the enemy army. If they're all flyers / hard to hit for some reason, then I can blow my smoke generators, but when I make it into melee the game is on, because that's where the superheavies are at home. Furthermore, the hulls of the vehicles are 7" wide, meaning that parking directly on top of an objective can efficiently keep the enemy more than 3" from it even in close combat, rendering even the most crippled superheavy into a target that still must be dealt with.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
On superheavy companies:

Don't. It only works if you're Imperial Knights or Imperial Guard. Space Marine Fellblades have the Relic special rule, which prevents a second one from being taken until you have 2 non-relic Lords of War. Space Marines non-relic Lords of War are: Terminus Ultra, Roboute Guilliman, and Thunderhawk Gunship.

Second, bringing 3 Baneblades is funny, once. After that, it pretty much ceases to be fun, because they don't do anything. They either sit there and die, or you sit there and die. Usually the former, because they're not actually that good.

Ow, that hurts, Katherine.

You've clearly got a different meta than me, I've been winning consistently with IG superheavy tank companies, and people (myself included) seem to think it is fun. Stormhammers especially are ace!

I don't know anyone with a Forgeworld Stormhammer, but I myself have a Shadowsword and I know 2 other people with Shadowswords, 1 with a Stormlord, and 1 with a Vanilla Baneblade.

There are two rules to keep in mind that really hurt those big, super heavy tanks, which, if you don't play with, I guess could make them quite decent.
1: All shooting attacks for the activated unit are declared before any are resolved. This limits the number of things they can kill in a turn drastically, especially since only the Shadowsword really has a chance of killing more than 1 tank a turn.
2: They still take a -1 penalty to hit from moving for some reason, and they have BS4+. They only have to degrade to be little more than a nuisance.


If you have 1 super heavy tank and a lot of other stuff, that's really, really, really good. But 3? I think you're asking for trouble.

1) This isn't so bad if you learn the capabilities of the vehicles - the Stormhammer has 3 independent lascannons, which I usually fire at 1 target. If it's a tough target, I'll give it the twin battlecannon too, and if it's a really tough target, it can have the main gun + co-ax lascannon. If I'm fighting, say, 2 Rhinos, I'll give 3 lascannons to one, and then the twin battlecannon, main gun + co-axial lascannon to another. The 4 heavy bolters go wherever.

2) This is easy to mitigate. A Trojan lets them re-roll every gun to hit, and even absent that, the co-axial lascannon allows a Stormhammer to re-roll to-hit with its main gun. A Salamander can also give them +1. If you're willing to spend ~700 points (slightly less than what it costs for a Fellblade) you get BS 3+, re-rolls of to-hit rolls, 4 lascannons, 2 battlecannons, one baneblade cannon (sorta), and 4 heavy bolters. So you actually come out slightly ahead of the Fellblade for less points, in the firepower department. Spend an extra 15 and you get a 2+ armour save as well, though I know durability wasn't a concern of yours.

Also, with 3 tanks, that lets me keep one back and cover the other 2 which push into melee with the enemy army. If they're all flyers / hard to hit for some reason, then I can blow my smoke generators, but when I make it into melee the game is on, because that's where the superheavies are at home. Furthermore, the hulls of the vehicles are 7" wide, meaning that parking directly on top of an objective can efficiently keep the enemy more than 3" from it even in close combat, rendering even the most crippled superheavy into a target that still must be dealt with.

Are you sure you have the Stormhammer's loadout right? I thought it had a Twin Battle Cannon, a Stormhammer Cannon, a co-axial multi-laser, and 6 mix-and-match weapon slots. Also, 3 Stormhammers, 3 Salamanders, 3 Trojans, and a CC totals up to 2200 points and 10 drops.

I also think you're overestimating how much I care about the objectives. If you only have 3 models, I can and will kill all three before turn 5. If you brought yourself a Salamander and a Trojan for every Stormhammer, then you've got 9 drops, are going second, and have already lost.


Anyway, when it gets to declaring targets, here's where your problems start happening. The first tank activated only has tank-type targets available. Doubly unfortunately, there are more hostile transports than there are Stormhammers/Baneblades/Shadowswords/Stormlords/etc. That means that all the heavy bolters are effectively worthless, and only your 4 Lascannons and your main gun [or 6 Lascannons, Main Gun, and Twin Battle Cannon] actually matter. 4 or 6 IG Lascannons, or even 4 or 6 Space Marine Lascannons re-rolling failed to-hit rolls, unfortunately can't singlehandedly take out an enemy Immolator/Razorback transport tank. 6 3+ Lascannons with re-rolls to hit average an output of 5 hits, 3 wounds, 2-3 unsaved wounds. and about 8 or 9 damage, which is close, but just one or two wounds short, so you still need to commit your main gun to kill that tank. Yes, it's very swingy, and the stack of lascannon can kill the tank with an mildly lucky roll, but here's the problem: your shots are allocated before any attacks are executed, and it has an equal chance of failing as it does of blowing it up. You don't know if your Lascannons are going to roll high or low when you're allocation main battery shots, and the absolute last thing that you want to happen is to target 2 tanks and kill neither, since this means your second tank is operating at near minimum efficiency, since it also has to dedicate weapons to finish off those wounded vehicles and still has no targets for its anti-infantry weapons.

So, you dump your full battery into 1 tank, and take it out, or maybe take out 1.5 tanks if you're a Shadowsword or a Stormhammer. There's now 1 squad of infantry, and still a bunch of tanks. Baneblade 2 destroys the infantry with all its heavy bolters, and destroys another tank. Baneblade 3 does the same. There are still a 5-6 squads of meltaguns lined up against you, and 4 or so tanks. 38 Meltaguns will blow up a Baneblade and at the very least cripple another, if not outright destroy two, and that's basically the end of the line for the Baneblade based army.

If you've gone with all antitank Stormhammers, then you're critically short on anti-infantry firepower too, which means you might not even be able to destroy the squads disembarking from the tanks.




And now, to the point of Baneblade companies being obnoxious to play against. There are some armies that they don't stand a chance against, typically armies that have the ability to field a high number of lascannons and meltaguns. They're also almost completely impossible for some armies to fight, typically those that rely on close-quarters combat for antitank.

Also, Imperial Knights are straight up better than Baneblades. They come with as-many wounds, generally better weapon options, don't take a penalty for moving and firing, cost less, and have an invulnerable save.


If I was going to run a Steel Fury Company, I'd run:
Stormlord, 4x Sponsons, Storm Bolter
Shadowsword, 4x Sponsons, H-K Missile, Storm Bolter
Stormhammer, 6x Lascannons, H-K Missile, Storm Bolter
Company Commander
Salamander, H-K Missile, Storm Bolter
Salamander, H-K Missile, Storm Bolter
Harker

This is only 5 drops instead of 10, and gets almost the same buff suite.

We'll have to agree to disagree, Katherine, because your scenario doesn't seem that bad to me. 38 meltaguns isn't scary to me at all and I will charge into the teeth of them and hope to tie them up in melee. Besides, they have to be within 12", giving me time to thin them out. They won't be shooting me till Turn 2 for the transported ones, and later for the ones that fall out of their tanks. Losing 2 tanks happens pretty routinely for my army and I still usually come close enough to wiping out the opponent that it's not that bad of a loss.

The Stormhammer has a hull lascannon by default, which you forgot, and can replace any of its multilasers with lascannons (including the co-ax, and after asking FW, the co-ax rule transfers to whatever upgrade you put there).

Imperial Knights have much much much more trouble dealing with hordes than Baneblades because they can't objective camp against them like the Baneblades can.

Also, my typical drops are in fact right around 9, yes, though they're not all trojans and salamanders. To be frank I wouldn't bring the salamander and would just bring trojans for all 3, bringing my drops to 6 and my points to only 1800 or so.

I've done really well with a core of Gulliman - Chronus in a las auto pred and 3 vindicators and building around that.

Typically I fill out a batallion with intersessors and a tech marine - the rest I've varried around with. Redemptor dread is a bullet magnet but I guess thats it's job with 13 wounds so it works - Repulsor with Hell blasters - scout bikes for taste. It's far from a full mech list but it's main elements are mech.

You could just go full out with like 6-7 vindicators plust some screens - could do well.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree, Katherine, because your scenario doesn't seem that bad to me. 38 meltaguns isn't scary to me at all and I will charge into the teeth of them and hope to tie them up in melee. Besides, they have to be within 12", giving me time to thin them out. They won't be shooting me till Turn 2 for the transported ones, and later for the ones that fall out of their tanks. Losing 2 tanks happens pretty routinely for my army and I still usually come close enough to wiping out the opponent that it's not that bad of a loss.

The Stormhammer has a hull lascannon by default, which you forgot, and can replace any of its multilasers with lascannons (including the co-ax, and after asking FW, the co-ax rule transfers to whatever upgrade you put there).

Imperial Knights have much much much more trouble dealing with hordes than Baneblades because they can't objective camp against them like the Baneblades can.

Also, my typical drops are in fact right around 9, yes, though they're not all trojans and salamanders. To be frank I wouldn't bring the salamander and would just bring trojans for all 3, bringing my drops to 6 and my points to only 1800 or so.

You can't do that. The Lord of War detachment doesn't allow for dedicated transports, so you need to have at least a patrol with 3 other things in it to take 3 Trojans, which is putting your minimum army here at 9 drops at 2000 points. I think Harker + Salamanders is a better buy anyway, since it gets almost the same buff suite as Trojans and Salamanders for half the cost.


And with regards to melta and plasma, I'm going to either vanguard them to you, deep-strike them right up close to you or some combination of the above. I don't intend to sit around and get shot. I've done that once against Imperial Knights as Marines, and it wasn't successful enough to win [though it did send 3 to 2 wounds and killed 1], and I've since adjusted my list to compensate and ensure that I won't have problems again.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree, Katherine, because your scenario doesn't seem that bad to me. 38 meltaguns isn't scary to me at all and I will charge into the teeth of them and hope to tie them up in melee. Besides, they have to be within 12", giving me time to thin them out. They won't be shooting me till Turn 2 for the transported ones, and later for the ones that fall out of their tanks. Losing 2 tanks happens pretty routinely for my army and I still usually come close enough to wiping out the opponent that it's not that bad of a loss.

The Stormhammer has a hull lascannon by default, which you forgot, and can replace any of its multilasers with lascannons (including the co-ax, and after asking FW, the co-ax rule transfers to whatever upgrade you put there).

Imperial Knights have much much much more trouble dealing with hordes than Baneblades because they can't objective camp against them like the Baneblades can.

Also, my typical drops are in fact right around 9, yes, though they're not all trojans and salamanders. To be frank I wouldn't bring the salamander and would just bring trojans for all 3, bringing my drops to 6 and my points to only 1800 or so.

You can't do that. The Lord of War detachment doesn't allow for dedicated transports, so you need to have at least a patrol with 3 other things in it to take 3 Trojans, which is putting your minimum army here at 9 drops at 2000 points. I think Harker + Salamanders is a better buy anyway, since it gets almost the same buff suite as Trojans and Salamanders for half the cost.


And with regards to melta and plasma, I'm going to either vanguard them to you, deep-strike them right up close to you or some combination of the above. I don't intend to sit around and get shot.

Trojans have a transport capacity of 6 so 3 MT scions and 2 characters fit inside of them, moving the drops back to 6.

Also, I guess? Every game I've played against deep striking people they bring Plasma instead of Melta, which doesn't do nearly as well (or if it does, then I'm even less scared of melta, because it's not been effective). Perhaps if people list-tailored into bringing enough deep-striking melta I'd worry, but most are hung up on plasma. Vanguard is kind of scary but eh, I still have a chance to blow smoke before you get to me, reducing your damage by a good amount before I get into melee and you can't shoot. If you're closer to me, that's also less distance I have to travel if I go first before tying you in combat.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree, Katherine, because your scenario doesn't seem that bad to me. 38 meltaguns isn't scary to me at all and I will charge into the teeth of them and hope to tie them up in melee. Besides, they have to be within 12", giving me time to thin them out. They won't be shooting me till Turn 2 for the transported ones, and later for the ones that fall out of their tanks. Losing 2 tanks happens pretty routinely for my army and I still usually come close enough to wiping out the opponent that it's not that bad of a loss.

The Stormhammer has a hull lascannon by default, which you forgot, and can replace any of its multilasers with lascannons (including the co-ax, and after asking FW, the co-ax rule transfers to whatever upgrade you put there).

Imperial Knights have much much much more trouble dealing with hordes than Baneblades because they can't objective camp against them like the Baneblades can.

Also, my typical drops are in fact right around 9, yes, though they're not all trojans and salamanders. To be frank I wouldn't bring the salamander and would just bring trojans for all 3, bringing my drops to 6 and my points to only 1800 or so.

You can't do that. The Lord of War detachment doesn't allow for dedicated transports, so you need to have at least a patrol with 3 other things in it to take 3 Trojans, which is putting your minimum army here at 9 drops at 2000 points. I think Harker + Salamanders is a better buy anyway, since it gets almost the same buff suite as Trojans and Salamanders for half the cost.


And with regards to melta and plasma, I'm going to either vanguard them to you, deep-strike them right up close to you or some combination of the above. I don't intend to sit around and get shot.

Trojans have a transport capacity of 6 so 3 MT scions and 2 characters fit inside of them, moving the drops back to 6.

Also, I guess? Every game I've played against deep striking people they bring Plasma instead of Melta, which doesn't do nearly as well (or if it does, then I'm even less scared of melta, because it's not been effective). Perhaps if people list-tailored into bringing enough deep-striking melta I'd worry, but most are hung up on plasma. Vanguard is kind of scary but eh, I still have a chance to blow smoke before you get to me, reducing your damage by a good amount before I get into melee and you can't shoot. If you're closer to me, that's also less distance I have to travel if I go first before tying you in combat.

Vanguard Melta doesn't give you a turn to pop smoke if done right. Popping smoke also happens instead of shooting, so you're not going to do that.


I'm also still at a loss for the rationale behind charging me. Your overwatch is a lot more powerful than your melee attacks, which are honestly crap, and Baneblades lack a special rule to negate the penalty more moving [for reasons still unknown], so, even with trojans for re-rolls, you don't want to be driving towards me. Baneblades don't tie things in combat. They're too big to charge more than one enemy unit.


Though, as I said, what really gets me is the fact that they can't shoot the things that were inside of transports they blow up, and that really seals the deal, I think, since they spend their entire first turn, the getting of which is the entire reason you're bringing 3 Baneblades instead of something actually really strong, cracking open cheap transports that don't actually do anything.


I like having a Shadowsword in my list, since it's a wonderful line anchor and fail-safe for when the conscript line is breached. I wouldn't want to bring 3, because I wouldn't be able to target enough different units.

How about we just agree that Steel Fury is a sub par build, but not outright bad.



But really, this isn't about IG Steel Fury, this is about Space Marines Steel Fury, which is crap, because of the Relic rule. Don't do it, you'll lose a lot of games and nobody will have fun.

I think he wants to play IG steel fury, so we're still on topic - and the reason I would want to charge you is it means you have to either fall back and not shoot with that unit, or not shoot me at all because you can't shoot at enemy models within 1". So the baneblade can shoot with impunity (including firing overwatch) and you can't shoot me, or you fall back, which keeps at least that unit from shooting. Essentially, the Baneblade can stay locked up all game and not really care because that means it's completely immune to anti-tank shooting unless the unit it is fighting falls back, and I can arrange it to tie up a few units at a time given the Baneblade's speed and size. If it was a tournament I could even charge in sideways and have a 9" frontage to get within an inch of enemy units, and if I am careful with how I stop, I may even be able to pivot as part of the pile in to get more units in. Trust me, I've done this. I even get to fire overwatch if something charges me still, with all my guns.

and I'm not sure what you mean by not getting to charge more than one unit. If they're all in melta range (or trying to get there) and I have a 10" move before I charge, I should be able to maneuver and pivot before charging.

With re-rolls, a 5+ is better than a base 4+, so their firepower is still considerable.

Lastly, whether Vanguard lets you shoot first turn or not depends entirely on deployment. If we get Hammer and Anvil, I can just deploy a few inches away from my front line, and even with Vanguard you can't get in range first turn without blowing an AOF you may want to use on Celestine+Seraphim.

I'm stubborn, AND I have like 20 jump pack meltas and zero jump pack plasmas. Fear the antiquated BA!

Yeah the Space marine steel fury thing died when I realized I could get Baneblades cheaper than Preds, at least in terms of money.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Yeah the Space marine steel fury thing died when I realized I could get Baneblades cheaper than Preds, at least in terms of money.

It's a big dumb list that does big dumb things, and has little tactical potential and very little potential for expansion as any army. It's easy to play and not aggressively bad, but you also can't really go anywhere with it once you've got your three baneblades. It's not awesome either, and that's why I don't like it. It just sort of is a thing.

If I was starting an ImpyGuard armor group, I would go with 1 Shadowsword/Stormlord and a gaggle of "lesser" tanks and artillery. The big tank can protect it's friends, and, if played well, it's friends can protect each other and protect it and you'll have an overall better, more expandable, more flexible, and, I think, more rewarding to play with army with more room for growth.

Of course, this can be applied to Space Marines too. A Fellblade/Falchion and a cluster of Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds is absolutely a viable army.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Yeah the Space marine steel fury thing died when I realized I could get Baneblades cheaper than Preds, at least in terms of money.

It's a big dumb list that does big dumb things, and has little tactical potential and very little potential for expansion as any army. It's easy to play and not aggressively bad, but you also can't really go anywhere with it once you've got your three baneblades. It's not awesome either, and that's why I don't like it. It just sort of is a thing.

If I was starting an ImpyGuard armor group, I would go with 1 Shadowsword/Stormlord and a gaggle of "lesser" tanks and artillery. The big tank can protect it's friends, and, if played well, it's friends can protect each other and protect it and you'll have an overall better, more expandable, more flexible, and, I think, more rewarding to play with army with more room for growth.

Of course, this can be applied to Space Marines too. A Fellblade/Falchion and a cluster of Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds is absolutely a viable army.

Nowhere to go? I completely disagree. I've decided to build an entire superheavy regiment, and that comes with some specific decisions about what models to buy, etc.

I'm sorry you think so lowly of me as a player as to think that I just play the 1 list and nothing else. My regiment has 6 companies of superheavies (each one with a different loadout), a support company attached to the regimental command which has the typical non-regimental staff units such as commissars and techpriests and psykers, as well as the trojans and salamanders such a regiment would require, and then the regimental command unit with its Stormlord regimental command tank, lovingly converted into a command tank (I even bought two copies of my regimental commander model so I could have her standing on the parapet talking to the staff who are working on the computer station I have there to direct the regiment) and its guardian units such as her personal household guard from her noble house on Concordia, etc.

I have no idea why you think there'd not be room for expansion. On the table, there's certainly not room. Off the table, there's a whole galaxy of fluff I can get involved in, and units to buy. Did you know her household guard are High Elven phoenix guard with Skitarii heads? They mesh really well together, and I run her as an Inquisitor (non-psyker) and them as acolytes so they even get the bodyguard rule and have access to power weapons (though not axes sadly). Each tank in each company is personalized with its own name, ID number, and company marking, as well as any notable kills (kill rings for enemy LoW, skulls or the like for other things). Each one has a storied history, and each one has a name and origin story, which my local meta loves because they can form beefs with specific tanks. (I have one Stormhammer named Virgin who is especially not a virgin anymore, haha. Or take the Stormsword Akilla, 2nd tank of 4th company - the local necron player has a beef with it especially after it ran over his warlord during 7th, for example.)

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Of course, this can be applied to Space Marines too. A Fellblade/Falchion and a cluster of Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds is absolutely a viable army.

Define viable...

Marmatag wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Of course, this can be applied to Space Marines too. A Fellblade/Falchion and a cluster of Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds is absolutely a viable army.

Define viable...

Can play and win more than it loses against casual opposition. Not good, but not aggressively bad.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Yeah the Space marine steel fury thing died when I realized I could get Baneblades cheaper than Preds, at least in terms of money.

It's a big dumb list that does big dumb things, and has little tactical potential and very little potential for expansion as any army. It's easy to play and not aggressively bad, but you also can't really go anywhere with it once you've got your three baneblades. It's not awesome either, and that's why I don't like it. It just sort of is a thing.

If I was starting an ImpyGuard armor group, I would go with 1 Shadowsword/Stormlord and a gaggle of "lesser" tanks and artillery. The big tank can protect it's friends, and, if played well, it's friends can protect each other and protect it and you'll have an overall better, more expandable, more flexible, and, I think, more rewarding to play with army with more room for growth.

Of course, this can be applied to Space Marines too. A Fellblade/Falchion and a cluster of Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds is absolutely a viable army.

Nowhere to go? I completely disagree. I've decided to build an entire superheavy regiment, and that comes with some specific decisions about what models to buy, etc.

I'm sorry you think so lowly of me as a player as to think that I just play the 1 list and nothing else. My regiment has 6 companies of superheavies (each one with a different loadout), a support company attached to the regimental command which has the typical non-regimental staff units such as commissars and techpriests and psykers, as well as the trojans and salamanders such a regiment would require, and then the regimental command unit with its Stormlord regimental command tank, lovingly converted into a command tank (I even bought two copies of my regimental commander model so I could have her standing on the parapet talking to the staff who are working on the computer station I have there to direct the regiment) and its guardian units such as her personal household guard from her noble house on Concordia, etc.

I have no idea why you think there'd not be room for expansion. On the table, there's certainly not room. Off the table, there's a whole galaxy of fluff I can get involved in, and units to buy. Did you know her household guard are High Elven phoenix guard with Skitarii heads? They mesh really well together, and I run her as an Inquisitor (non-psyker) and them as acolytes so they even get the bodyguard rule and have access to power weapons (though not axes sadly). Each tank in each company is personalized with its own name, ID number, and company marking, as well as any notable kills (kill rings for enemy LoW, skulls or the like for other things). Each one has a storied history, and each one has a name and origin story, which my local meta loves because they can form beefs with specific tanks. (I have one Stormhammer named Virgin who is especially not a virgin anymore, haha. Or take the Stormsword Akilla, 2nd tank of 4th company - the local necron player has a beef with it especially after it ran over his warlord during 7th, for example.)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply I thought "so lowly of you as a player", but I don't think I implied that that was the only army you played. I know, for a fact, that you play a foot-sisters army.

You and I play very differently, I think. When I'm bored, or want new things, I think about new lists that are more powerful than my existing one, and thing about what new things I could buy that would enhance my current lists. I don't like all super-heavy lists, or lists the consist of a small number of elite units in general, because I feel constrained and without options. The game for changes, at least for me, and I feel like I lose access to a well-stocked machine shop and instead replace it with a large spanner; the game changes from seeing what amazing thing I can cook up with all the resources at my disposal to seeing how I can get the job done with just a single wrench.

And, I guess, it is a good experience, since it makes it possible to really appreciate all the different ways your units can be used and perhaps reveal the basis for a new list theory, but I just can't see anything really fun coming out of 3 Baneblades. It's just too rigid, and because it consists of three big things, I can't keep altering and tweaking small things and trying variations on loadouts and swapping out single units to continuously fine-tune it and improve it's efficiency.

I've chatted with Unit1126PLL and the more I think about it the more it seems like a superheavy detachment is like a huge tactical squad, except every member has to pull his weight.

I just really like the predator tank. However it suffers for being the Medium Tank to the Chimera's Light Tank and the Leman Russ's heavy tank (i.e: IG just has so much more flexibility).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I've chatted with Unit1126PLL and the more I think about it the more it seems like a superheavy detachment is like a huge tactical squad, except every member has to pull his weight.

I just really like the predator tank. However it suffers for being the Medium Tank to the Chimera's Light Tank and the Leman Russ's heavy tank (i.e: IG just has so much more flexibility).

Predators are pretty good. They're flat out better than Leman Russes, point-for-point.

Chimerae are crap, too.

What the IG has that the SM's don't is the heavy artillery. Manticores and Wyverns leave Whirlwinds in the dust, and they're where the real might of the IG lies.