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There is nothing more satisfying than dropping burna bomms on a unit of 10 intercessors

 deffrekka wrote:
and those 60 intercessors have 2 wounds a pop too so even just on wounds they out do us. Used to be around 3 Boys for a Marine, Now is not even 2 with Tacticals and only 2 with Intercessors.

If multi damage weapons didn't exist, this would be more relevant. If you're packing a butt load of D2 weapons, that extra wound is looking quite pointless.

Doesn't mean they still aren't god tier, and paying 8.5 points per wound for what they get is just aggressively cost, but model count does still matter depending what your opponent is packing.

Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah marines have been fielding barely less models than orks these days.
And orks are still tissuepaper durable.

Orks have options to circumvent their durability issues.. just most players choose not to do it. 5++, 6+++ gives you a roughly 45% survival rate, irrespective of the gun shooting at your boy. A lot of people don't bother with a painboy. If you do DS, 6++, 6+++ is ~30%, irrespective of gun being fired at them, and it's easier to keep coverage.

 Jidmah wrote:
There is nothing more satisfying than dropping burna bomms on a unit of 10 intercessors

I dunno, have you tried it on a group of 10 buffed paladins? I managed to do 6MWs like that, which is "only" 2 models but still quite good. Back when more people ran hellblasters I've managed to kill 4 of them in one bomb once (rolled 7 MWs and one was already damaged)

Edit: It should be noted that the prevalence of D2 weapons makes those painboy buffs vastly inferior than they might seem at first glance though. He might still be worth it, but rolling double 6's to save a singular boy isn't a big boost to your durability.

Orks have options to circumvent their durability issues.. just most players choose not to do it. 5++, 6+++ gives you a roughly 45% survival rate, irrespective of the gun shooting at your boy. A lot of people don't bother with a painboy. If you do DS, 6++, 6+++ is ~30%, irrespective of gun being fired at them, and it's easier to keep coverage.

Nobody uses painboyz because theyre incredibly difficult to get across the table with the boyz and they die to a stiff breeze when either they get a clear shot on one or a sniper is around.
And they arent cheap.

Also they dont work on vehicles, and orks have a ton of vehicles that are used right now.

 Vineheart01 wrote:


Nobody uses painboyz because theyre incredibly difficult to get across the table with the boyz and they die to a stiff breeze when either they get a clear shot on one or a sniper is around.
And they arent cheap.

Mad dok. He’s actually not awful vs snipers. 4+, 6++, 5+++, T5.

And the ork top 8 at LVO included one so he sees play.

Top 8 Australian open also had a painboy.

Also they dont work on vehicles, and orks have a ton of vehicles that are used right now.

Well yes but we were talking about boys vs intercessors. Ork vehicles aren’t as paper thin as boys are ( albeit not super tanky).

Admittedly i do i need a grotsnik model, since i started using deathskullz anyway purely to reduce the time i spend rerolling 1s with badmoons lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Admittedly i do i need a grotsnik model, since i started using deathskullz anyway purely to reduce the time i spend rerolling 1s with badmoons lol

He’s legit awesome. He’s even decent in combat because he hits on 3s, not 4s.

He’s basically a warboss with a normal PK offensively, plus DS rerolls.

Grotsnik only problem is being an elite choice rather than HQ

I think people tend to stay away from Painboyz (in general) because you get less return on your investment with them over KFF Mekz. They both need to "save" approximately 10 Boyz to earn their points back (I think 9 for the Painboy and 11 for the KFF Mek), but the Mek has twice the chance to save them (5++ vs 6+++). Of course, you can get more coverage from a Painboy than a KFF Mek too, because the former doesn't require complete coverage.

There's also the fact that all that protection tends to last you only 1 turn, as you'll be immediately Jumping those Boyz out so they can get to work. So, really, it's a matter of if 9 more Boyz will do more for you than a Painboy, and unless its Grotsnik, they probably will.

So is there even a reason to use a KFF any more then?
Rolling my eyes here. First they put it on a mega armoured Big Mek then what? I leave it in the back to cover mek gunz?
Granted I will still use the one from the index but it seems like a really bad choice on GW's part.
If using a KFF and/and or a pain boy is not a good use of points then? Just buy more boys?

I mean they're both decent and it's far more enjoyable to have a couple of characters instead of amassing yet more boys IMO. A painboy is pretty good for bikes as well (mainly T1 then of course) since there are a lot of D2 weapons in the game and that 6+++ actually helps mitigate those losses fairly often.

But usually a painboy and KFF help protect the boyz squads that you aren't da jumping that turn so they still have their uses

Whether it's a good use of points will be up to your playstyle and army composition. I'm just giving ya the numbers on when your Painboy and KFF "makes back their points" so you don't just go "improved durability is always the best choice". The latter can protect a single Boy Mob and, on average, he'll make his points back. The former needs to protect two Boy Mobz to make back his points. But if you're going heavy on Infantry, the Painboy can protect more units than the KFF can, so there's that as well. And it's also relevant to note that a unit that is Jumped out loses the KFF and Painboy buffs.

In the end, do whatcha wanna do and if it works for ya that's fantastic.

 flandarz wrote:
Whether it's a good use of points will be up to your playstyle and army composition. I'm just giving ya the numbers on when your Painboy and KFF "makes back their points" so you don't just go "improved durability is always the best choice". The latter can protect a single Boy Mob and, on average, he'll make his points back. The former needs to protect two Boy Mobz to make back his points. But if you're going heavy on Infantry, the Painboy can protect more units than the KFF can, so there's that as well. And it's also relevant to note that a unit that is Jumped out loses the KFF and Painboy buffs.

In the end, do whatcha wanna do and if it works for ya that's fantastic.

Which loops around to my original comment:

People complain that Boy like units are paper thin but then seem to not want to use the options to protect them. A full stacked boy unit with KFF / FNP is actually pretty hard to shift without a lot of firepower.

KFF is great, but it's really limited to turn 1 for boys. Painboy aura is way more forgiving.

As most lists that use lots of boys typically are fielding 3 full squads, I think at that point, it's easy to think Mad Dok / Painboy is worth it (he also makes other nearby characters harder to kill, and can heal up wounded characters if they survive a sniper round). The Austrailian open player actually used a normal painboy to beef up grots and 30 flash gits.

A single boy unit stacked is probably not worth it, no, especially if you're just Da Jumping it turn 1. Just hide it in the corner, that's even better than any save. But I think a single squad of 30 boys is not really something people field in competitive play.

I haven't really done the 90 boy style list, but I imagine you aren't Da Jumping ALL of them. If they are moving up and holding board control midfield, and those units might have to endure several turns of shooting, doesn't seem like a bad investment.

if i actually have numbers of boyz (90-120) my dajump is a utility to get a squad past an annoying barrier, not send them across the board. Dajump them far enough ahead to shoot with shootas but not so far that they are away from the Tide and probably in prime position to get focused down with no protection.
Otherwise i usually try to dajump under a wazbom. At worst, the wazbom suddenly draws all the anti-tank fire to get rid of that KFF before the anti-horde fire comes and my other vehicles are fine, at best they dont and i keep enough boyz for a Green Tide more often than not.

I use doc grotsnik all the time. He's pretty good in combat with fist of gork never had a game where he was not worth his points.

And deffskullz 6++ and doc 6+++ is a great combo to protekt

30 boys need about 160 str 4 shots on bs3 to got wiped with 5++ 6+++

And 130 shots bs3 str 4 with 6++. 6+++
Thats nothing easy to kill in my eyes.
Because it's invul and feel no pain
Same ammount of shots with let's say ap - 1 kills 21 Marines or 10 primaris.

Looks like 09 March is the date.

March 9 is a Monday that seems a bit odd....

Not for reveals though . It's not release date 99.99% sure. However big reveals like showing ragnar and ghaz models makes sense.

PiñaColada wrote:
I mean they're both decent and it's far more enjoyable to have a couple of characters instead of amassing yet more boys IMO. A painboy is pretty good for bikes as well (mainly T1 then of course) since there are a lot of D2 weapons in the game and that 6+++ actually helps mitigate those losses fairly often.

But usually a painboy and KFF help protect the boyz squads that you aren't da jumping that turn so they still have their uses

Eh, I have eliminated the biker painboy. A 6+++ adds almost no survivability to them and is not worth spending over 100 points on.

I think the reason why KFFs see little play right now is because people are putting all their boyz in the tellyporta or are hiding them out of LOS until they can jump them.

Me too (well, I never thought he was worth it). That's what I meant by mainly T1 since you can simply place some bikes near a normal painboy and he'll help mitigate a potential alpha strike on those bikes somewhat but after that he's squarely back on boyz duty.

Do people who play green tide put all their stuff in deep strike ? It’s so... CP expensive. I’d rather take something that infiltrates for free if that was my game plan.

Seems like the KFF / painboy is showing up a lot though in current top play. Simon Priddis, Stormboy legend, had both as well.

Anthony birdsong rather crazily only had mad dok. It looks like he took a mix of clan boys though, unless he secretly went mono culture.

When I’m playing green tide I’d save most of the cp for auto passing morale and bringing a unit back on turn 2 but I will usually deepstrike 1 unit of boys

If possible the best outcome is
Da jump 30 boys turn 1
Some of those boys survive turn 1

Turn 2
Bring the boys back at full strength
Deepstrike boys from reserve
Da jump 3rd boys unit
That’s 90 fresh boys charging which will ruin almost anything

Bonus’s
If possible charge in 30 stormboys

Does anyone actually play boyz as DS just for that 6++ / 6+++?
If I run boyz I simply go for 3 x 30 Evil Sunz and call it a day with Grot filling my DS battalion(s) and / or brigade.
I'd rather have that 8" charge after jumping / tellyporting and have the ability to gain board control quick.

Tellyporting or running depends heavily on my opponent, if he has an aggressive CC list or 12" anti deepstrike shenigans I might deploy all 90, if I face lists where I can clear screening easy until turn 2-3 and get my 9" deepstriking or have to deal with TFC that deny my charge with the tremor shell strat I rather tellyport them. (Maybe place 1 mob near my KFF to bait him using the CP anyway and minimize losses.

The rare occasions I field 90 boys I have at least 20 CP because they eat as much CP as does my shooting, so tellyporting is no problem CP wise.
Without boys I had some success with only 9-13 CP but with them that's a no go. Except some fun game where I know I won't need much CP for tellyporting and maxing out the strats and output.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Does anyone actually play boyz as DS just for that 6++ / 6+++?
If I run boyz I simply go for 3 x 30 Evil Sunz and call it a day with Grot filling my DS battalion(s) and / or brigade.
I'd rather have that 8" charge after jumping / tellyporting and have the ability to gain board control quick.

I was thinking about dedicating all of my ard' boys over as DeffSkulls They're all shoota boys. Park those in terrain near a Dok and some grots.

I'm not a fan of boys on foot being Evil Sunz just to game the ability. Sure you can do it. Doesn't excite me.

I'm going to try and run a 6 man squad of kanz just to see if I can get them to do anything. Anyone have any tips to mitigate morale losses? Right now I'm thinking I'll keep them close to a warboss, pray I don't roll any 3's, and use a mek or big mek to repair any that survive.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Does anyone actually play boyz as DS just for that 6++ / 6+++?
If I run boyz I simply go for 3 x 30 Evil Sunz and call it a day with Grot filling my DS battalion(s) and / or brigade.
I'd rather have that 8" charge after jumping / tellyporting and have the ability to gain board control quick.

Tellyporting or running depends heavily on my opponent, if he has an aggressive CC list or 12" anti deepstrike shenigans I might deploy all 90, if I face lists where I can clear screening easy until turn 2-3 and get my 9" deepstriking or have to deal with TFC that deny my charge with the tremor shell strat I rather tellyport them. (Maybe place 1 mob near my KFF to bait him using the CP anyway and minimize losses.

The rare occasions I field 90 boys I have at least 20 CP because they eat as much CP as does my shooting, so tellyporting is no problem CP wise.
Without boys I had some success with only 9-13 CP but with them that's a no go. Except some fun game where I know I won't need much CP for tellyporting and maxing out the strats and output.

27th at LVO played with some.

I do as well. But I also use my boys as a way to clog up the center of my board. I don't generally just deep strike and charge (although DS boys can do it too about 58% of the time). I also give em a couple of rockets to maximize my DS rerolls.

If DS -> Charge is all you literally do with boys, I guess ES is really the only option. I think you can use them differently to some positive effect, though.

 DrGiggles wrote:
I'm going to try and run a 6 man squad of kanz just to see if I can get them to do anything. Anyone have any tips to mitigate morale losses? Right now I'm thinking I'll keep them close to a warboss, pray I don't roll any 3's, and use a mek or big mek to repair any that survive.

thats really all you can do. The boss heavily reduces the leadership issue but thats a hefty tax to mitigate a mediocre unit's morale problem. And his presence will probably draw even more fire as once the kans are out of the way he can be targeted too.
I plan to revisit this when we get PA assuming we get the same "not a warlord but gets a trait anyway" stratagem everyone else is getting. Giving a KFF Mek the "Follow Me Ladz!" strat would help that a lot, but if hes actually your warlord then no Big Killa SSAG and DEFINITELY will draw fire then lol

If we get that, then technically for free (follow me ladz gives you a cp) we can give a Bigmek that we already want over there for repairs the morale mitigation ability. And to add to his value, add some boyz over there to protect and lead.

An alternative would be to run the Kanz in a Snakebitez Detachment and give a KFF Mek the Surly as a Squiggoth Warlord Trait while he hides in the middle of them. But, as mentioned, that's a lot of investment to make a mediocre unit slightly less mediocre.

Warboss for what, 70+ points? And he’s a target and causes wounds if the Kans fluff Ld.

200 ish points for a Batallion, spend the CP on auto pass Ld tests.

The standard boss loadout is 80pts.
Really all you can shave is if you give him a Bigchoppa instead of a PK he'd be 74pts. Thats assuming you even have a model for him with one (only reason i never run one, aint got one lol)