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I thought a command point allows you to reroll a single dice.

I thought the FAQ said that if you have an ability to re-roll a charge like ORKS do , then you must re-roll both charge dice. You cant just pick one to re-roll. You could use a command point to re-roll one of the dice. But if you used the ORK ability then you must re-roll both.

Then....
I was told they "FAQ'd it" that you can re roll both charge dice if you spend a command point. ( That is incorrect ?)
Why do people tell me stuff that is totally wrong in the middle of a tournament game ?

1. Tournaments should publish what FAQ's they're using as a change published 3 days before the event is hardly sporting for lists which may have been registered weeks or even months in advance. If they don't then you should make a point of asking and getting a written confirmation.

2. Having resolved 1., it's *entirely* on you to have a copy of the FAQ, Codex/Index and Rulebook to hand for this situation.

The answer to your question then is 1&2 weren't resolved, so they could do that. Sorry :\

A re-roll allows you to re-roll the roll, all dice.

A Command Point Strategem allows you to reroll one die from those you rolled.

We just hada several page discussion on this; it was locked by the mods.

Discuss it with your opponent pregame and move on.

keithandor wrote:

I thought a command point allows you to reroll a single dice.

I thought the FAQ said that if you have an ability to re-roll a charge like ORKS do , then you must re-roll both charge dice. You cant just pick one to re-roll. You could use a command point to re-roll one of the dice. But if you used the ORK ability then you must re-roll both.

Then....
I was told they "FAQ'd it" that you can re roll both charge dice if you spend a command point. ( That is incorrect ?)
Why do people tell me stuff that is totally wrong in the middle of a tournament game ?

The FAQ talks about re-rolling roll "results" as a whole, and tells you that if you're asked to re-roll e.g. "2d6" you're supposed to pick up both dice and re-roll them.
The Strategem talks about re-rolling a single dice, not the result. Therefore the FAQ has no relevance at all, so we stick with what's written in the Strategem - and that tells us to pick one dice and re-roll that single dice.

editted the underlined "re-" in to make it clearer

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
We just hada several page discussion on this; it was locked by the mods.

Discuss it with your opponent pregame and move on.

This. Please don't start WWII, we're all still nursing our wounds and recovering from the trauma of the first one.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
We just hada several page discussion on this; it was locked by the mods.

Discuss it with your opponent pregame and move on.

This. Please don't start WWII, we're all still nursing our wounds and recovering from the trauma of the first one.

Well, WWII had a pretty conclusive end, even though Poland now wants to reneg on the reparations... did you mean #3?

nekooni wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
We just hada several page discussion on this; it was locked by the mods.

Discuss it with your opponent pregame and move on.

This. Please don't start WWII, we're all still nursing our wounds and recovering from the trauma of the first one.

Well, WWII had a pretty conclusive end, even though Poland now wants to reneg on the reparations... did you mean #3?

It was a metaphor!

Also, I'm starting to wonder how conclusive it was when there's Nazis marching around 30 minutes from where I live, but I digest.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
We just hada several page discussion on this; it was locked by the mods.

Discuss it with your opponent pregame and move on.

This. Please don't start WWII, we're all still nursing our wounds and recovering from the trauma of the first one.

Well, WWII had a pretty conclusive end, even though Poland now wants to reneg on the reparations... did you mean #3?

It was a metaphor!

I know you were not being literal, but you'd still use ww3 instead, wouldn't you?

Also, I'm starting to wonder how conclusive it was when there's Nazis marching around 30 minutes from where I live, but I digest.

The war was between countries, and it's clearly over. But to misquote Mercy from Overwatch: Idiots never die!

nekooni wrote:

I know you were not being literal, but you'd still use ww3 instead, wouldn't you?

I mean, normally I'd say yes, but in this case I think WWII is the better metaphor, since it would be a more or less completely predictable continuation of the first war, rather than a new war with new motivations a significant amount of time later. Plus it was getting hairy enough in the last thread that I'm sure a Hitler reference was Godwining it's way up from the depths soon enough.

yes yes, back to topic please

 reds8n wrote:


yes yes, back to topic please

Sorry, I'm still kinda waiting for someone to refute my last post, shouldn't have been carried away with the OT.
Any takers?

The FAQ talks about re-rolling roll "results" as a whole, and tells you that if you're asked to re-roll e.g. "2d6" you're supposed to pick up both dice and re-roll them.
The Strategem talks about re-rolling a single dice, not the result. Therefore the FAQ has no relevance at all, so we stick with what's written in the Strategem - and that tells us to pick one dice and re-roll that single dice.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/738599.page

Nekooni,
The problem is simple - The Author did not refer to the object being re-rolled as 'dice,' 'results' or even 'rolls' constantly throughout the paragraph.
There is a section that refers to being allowed to re-roll a dice roll, then there is a section that talks about being able to re-roll a result and there is a section that talks about never being able ro re-roll the dice more then once. This is why I hear the exact same argument as grounds to allow re-rolling of multiple dice using this Stratagem; it is still Re-rolling a Dice Roll, and thus benefits from permission to use 'some or all' of the dice. While I don't agree with this argument, the Stratagem uses the words 'single dice' for a damn reason, it stems from the fact Game Workshop needs to learn consistency within terminology.

We Roll Dice... so Game Workshop should have used the word 'Result' throughout this Rule!

keithandor wrote:

I thought a command point allows you to reroll a single dice.

I thought the FAQ said that if you have an ability to re-roll a charge like ORKS do , then you must re-roll both charge dice. You cant just pick one to re-roll. You could use a command point to re-roll one of the dice. But if you used the ORK ability then you must re-roll both.

Then....
I was told they "FAQ'd it" that you can re roll both charge dice if you spend a command point. ( That is incorrect ?)
Why do people tell me stuff that is totally wrong in the middle of a tournament game ?

Given that there seems to be an ever increasing nuber of people that want to use the FAQ to change the meaning of the word "single" into "as many as you want", I think at that point it would have been best to ask the TO for a clarification on it.

 JinxDragon wrote:
Nekooni,
The problem is simple - The Author did not refer to the object being re-rolled as 'dice,' 'results' or even 'rolls' constantly throughout the paragraph.
There is a section that refers to being allowed to re-roll a dice roll, then there is a section that talks about being able to re-roll a result and there is a section that talks about never being able ro re-roll the dice more then once. This is why I hear the exact same argument as grounds to allow re-rolling of multiple dice using this Stratagem; it is still Re-rolling a Dice Roll, and thus benefits from permission to use 'some or all' of the dice. While I don't agree with this argument, the Stratagem uses the words 'single dice' for a damn reason, it stems from the fact Game Workshop needs to learn consistency within terminology.

We Roll Dice... so Game Workshop should have used the word 'Result' throughout this Rule!

Ok, so I'll just go with your assumption that a roll, a result and an unqualified "dice" are basically interchangeable in that paragraph. However, it is still saying that you re-roll all dice if it is not stated otherwise. The strategem does not tell you to re-roll dice, it does not tell you to re-roll a dice result, a roll or a roll result. It literally tells you to re-roll a single dice. That's it. It is "stated otherwise" , so even if you want to apply that paragraph and - for some reason - think that the more generic rule beats the specific strategem, you're still stuck with that limitation and you can only roll a single dice. not multiple ones.

I could see someone arguing for "well, if it has two dice you can't use the strategem" if you read it like "pick a dice roll that consists of a single dice and re-roll that", but that's probably not at all what they intended.

Not stating that they are or are not interchangeable, just that the entire section needs to be better written.

There are three different types of re-rolls in this game, Natural/Dice/Results, so Game Workshop had to inform us how to handle each different type of Re-roll. Instead of separating the three into their own paragraphs, and taking the time to explain each one even with a single sentence, they threw all of it into a one poorly written paragraph. I can speculate as to why, maybe the Authors don't realize they even have three types of re-rolls and treat it all as 'dice,' but regardless as to the reasoning behind these decisions... we are left with that poorly written paragraph. It is so badly written that it failed to even account for 'Results' at first, that had to be added completely by Errata. The way Game Workshop treats 'Natural 1's' is still face-palm worthy, we just got lucky in the Re-roll section as 'what is on the face' is the same as 'before modifications.'

Still - 'Gets-hot' on a 3 because of a -2 To-Hit modifier, anyone?


As for 'otherwise stated' argument:
I point back to my 'the Stratagem uses the words single dice damn reason' comment, I more then concur.

A single dice is referred to as a die.

 Primark G wrote:
A single dice is referred to as a die.

GW has used 'dice' to refer to a single die for probably thirty years, and is an acceptable use grammatically.

 Primark G wrote:
A single dice is referred to as a die.

...except it isn't in the Warhammer 40,000 rules. They use dice to mean singular or plural, depending on context.

 Primark G wrote:
A single dice is referred to as a die.

"A single dice"

Just because this type of discussion needs to be shot in the back of the head...

"Historically, dice is the plural of die, but in modern standard English dice is both the singular and the plural: 'throw the dice' could mean a reference to either one or more than one dice."
www.english.com
www.oxforddictionaries.com

While refuted about 50% of the time by American grammar websites, we're dealing with an English publication and it's accepted common language in the UK.

There is no ambiguity in the stratagem's wording. There is no ambiguity in the FAQ regarding re-rolls and the subsequent use of "stated otherwise" (See stratagem). Even if one wishes to argue something else, the intent is beyond obvious and this shouldn't even be a discussion.

There is still ambiguity, in that definition "throw a dice" can mean 1 or more. "A" can mean 1 or "the thing called dice". In regards to "reroll a single dice" it could mean "reroll 1 single dice", or "the thing called single dice" which, in turn, could mean "the single dice that have been rolled(or dice result/ set of dice)" separating a blanket reroll from a reroll of specific results(misses, "1s", failures, etc)

English is not the most precise language(especially when written), unless you are using very precise verbiage(which is why there are things referred to as "legalese" or documents that "read like stereo instructions"). This is one of the thing GW is just the worst at; writing for themselves instead of the audience. The Rules are not only written in their understanding of english, but also in their regional Dialect leading to other British peoples to not be sure what they meant by a particular phrasing.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
There is still ambiguity, in that definition "throw a dice" can mean 1 or more. "A" can mean 1 or "the thing called dice". In regards to "reroll a single dice" it could mean "reroll 1 single dice", or "the thing called single dice" which, in turn, could mean "the single dice that have been rolled(or dice result/ set of dice)" separating a blanket reroll from a reroll of specific results(misses, "1s", failures, etc)

English is not the most precise language(especially when written), unless you are using very precise verbiage(which is why there are things referred to as "legalese" or documents that "read like stereo instructions"). This is one of the thing GW is just the worst at; writing for themselves instead of the audience. The Rules are not only written in their understanding of english, but also in their regional Dialect leading to other British peoples to not be sure what they meant by a particular phrasing.

What other British people have come out and claimed that they never heard of "dice" being used as singular? to me it seems like the only regional thing I can find with this issue is that Americans reject the idea that dice could be singular, too. I'm not sure if that's 100% correct, but it was something I noticed in the first thread. But maybe it was just one or two really vocal people that happened to be from the US.

I'm not British and I was convinced that "a single dice" is singular. I've also checked my own rulebook and strategem cards (from the SM set) which are in German, and they clearly state it's just one "Würfel", not multiple.

It's really not a local Nottingham thing to use dice as singular.

You seem to be having problems understanding what has been written today, because I did not specify which particular phrasing has lead to a misunderstanding: but if you want an example of that situation, look at a few threads here in YMDC for questions on wording from people with a little British flag next to their name.

Oh my, I'm sorry for assuming that we were still discussing the topic. Apologies.

RULE #1 - Be polite.

RULE #2 - Stay on Topic.

Two VERY important rules here on Dakka Dakka...

I have to disagree that there is any ambiguity.

"Re-roll a single dice" cannot be construed in any way without the reader being at fault. It's not the game's fault if the reader is illiterate or insists he thinks they meant "a single dice roll", etc. That's not even an argument.

"Re-roll a single dice" being construed as possibly rolling more than one die is the equivalent of someone saying "Hey, go grab me a single chairs.". That's not a real thing.

This exact problem of the wording is dividing my playing group.



Right now, FAQ 1.1 (the first bullet) talks about re-roll. It says:

"If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again."

Ive underlined the problem.

In the Command Point Stratagem it says "you can spend a command point to re-roll any single dice".

The problem is whether a command point re-rolls both dice for a charge or psycher test, or one die.

The people who say "re-roll both dice" point to the faq as reason, but the faq has "unless otherwise stated" in its wording . The Command Stratagem is a place it is "otherwise stated". The Command Stragagem says "roll a single dice"

Based on this, I argue that if something grants a re-roll (for example re-roll a charge) you re-roll both dice based on the faq. If your going to use a Command Point for a re-roll, you only get to re-roll 1 dice. Whether you roll one or more dice depends on the source granting that re-roll. If its a Command Point its a single dice.

As far as I'm aware saying "a single dice" means singular...... 1.

 Phydox wrote:

This exact problem of the wording is dividing my playing group.



Right now, FAQ 1.1 (the first bullet) talks about re-roll. It says:

"If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again."

Ive underlined the problem.

In the Command Point Stratagem it says "you can spend a command point to re-roll any single dice".

The problem is whether a command point re-rolls both dice for a charge or psycher test, or one die.

The people who say "re-roll both dice" point to the faq as reason, but the faq has "unless otherwise stated" in its wording . The Command Stratagem is a place it is "otherwise stated". The Command Stragagem says "roll a single dice"

Based on this, I argue that if something grants a re-roll (for example re-roll a charge) you re-roll both dice based on the faq. If your going to use a Command Point for a re-roll, you only get to re-roll 1 dice. Whether you roll one or more dice depends on the source granting that re-roll. If its a Command Point its a single dice.

As far as I'm aware saying "a single dice" means singular...... 1.

This, this, a thousand times this.