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How do?

So this is a thing in the Deathguard Codex.

In case the pic doesn't show, it's a Tactical Objective that for every seven models you kill, you bag a Victory Point.

In the normal run of things, that has its uses. Some armies won't give you any (tough, multi wound stuff scoffs at if, by and large). Against most, it can provide that edge when you need it to inch closer to victory.

But against Conscript blob squads? Well, they really don't take much killing at all. Played at the right time, it could very feasibly see you take up a lead the IG player can't catch up with. And all by turning the strength of Conscripts on themselves. Typically they're easy enough to kill, but don't reward you very well for that effort.

If you can kill 49, you get a near game winning 7 victory points from that objective alone. Suddenly the effort it takes to wipe out the Conscripts seriously pays off.

Now, that's great for Deathguard of course. But if other armies get broadly similar Tactical Objectives, it may help curtail Conscript abuse?

It doesn't seem to do anything about Conscripts specifically. It just hits hordes in general. Regular infantry die just as easily as Conscripts. Orks are about the same. Gaunts and Cultists die even easier. It strikes me as pretty bad design insofar as it's a potentially massive VP swing based more-or-less only on what army you're playing against. For the same reason that I'm happy that tournaments don't use rulebook-style kill points, I'm glad that they don't use Maelstrom objectives like this one.

The issue with Conscripts seems to be that with a Commisar nearby, they take far too much work to deal with. That means they can comfortably camp on objectives, or congaline to stop you getting at other units.

This TO threatens half of those issues, by turning Conscripts into a VP machine for your opponent. Indeed, the Commisar stopping them running away en masse simply feeds said VP machine, as more will stick around to be slain rather than simply removed from the board.

That's an ability few armies have - and crucially Chaos doesn't have Snipers to deal with the Commisar, making a Conscripts a particular issue for Heretics

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The issue with Conscripts seems to be that with a Commisar nearby, they take far too much work to deal with. That means they can comfortably camp on objectives, or congaline to stop you getting at other units.

This TO threatens half of those issues, by turning Conscripts into a VP machine for your opponent. Indeed, the Commisar stopping them running away en masse simply feeds said VP machine, as more will stick around to be slain rather than simply removed from the board.

Right, and my point is that this TO is just as disastrous for your opponent if, instead of Conscripts, they have lots of regular Infantry squads, or Cultists, or Gaunts, or Boyz. Gaunts and Boyz in particular are trying to get as close to you as possible, and this TO threatens to almost insta-lose the game for the Ork or Tyranid player trying to use them the way that they're supposed to be used. I agree with you that if everyone got something like this then you'd probably see a lot fewer Conscripts in games using TOs (well, assuming you generate it often enough to matter. If it's just a 1 in 36 chance it probably doesn't actually impact people's list decisions very much and instead is just a random blue shell that occasionally swings a game). But that's not because you'll have "fixed" Conscripts; it's because you'll have broken hordes in general.

I think it's existence is a major discouragement to anyone looking to exploit very cheap infantry by rendering them immune to Battleshock.

And for Deathguard, it's doubly useful. They're a small, Points intensive army. That of course can mean they'll struggle to kill enough horde infantry effectively.

I absolutely accept this could be game breaking for certain armies, but can be mitigated by letting Battleshock take its toll, rather than blocking it.

If similar low model count armies get something broadly similar, it should help prevent Blob Squads dominating the game in a manner they were never intended.

Plus, you still need to draw the damn thing, so not exactly something you can build a tactic around,

It is a nice strategem but it will only show up 1 in every 36 objectives you draw and there is likely a 50/50 chance you will draw it either in the turn after you wiped out your opponants infantry hordes or during a game in which your opponant is only using small model count, high survivability units.

It shouldn't be that strong. (Then again, that one time you draw it during a game you are losing badly then proceed to wipe out your opponants horde to win the game 8-7, I'm sure your opponant will call out how powerful it is)

Agreed, its interesting but definitely not reliable.

But is the mere threat that you could draw it enough to curtail Conscript Dickery?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But is the mere threat that you could draw it enough to curtail Conscript Dickery?

I doubt it. In a tourney, Death Guard would be a fraction of your opponents, the Tactical Objective would be used a fraction of the time, and it could only be helpful in a fraction of the turns you might be playing in a game.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But is the mere threat that you could draw it enough to curtail Conscript Dickery?

I would say no because of the unlikelyness of it being drawn, the unlikelyness of it being affective and the chance of actually facing a DG player in a competitive tournament.

Conscripts are just too damn good right now due to their low points, excellent survivability (for their points), brilliant fire output (for their points) and utility in shutting down CQC armies. The small chance of facing this strategem is no where near a deterent.

Here is another nugget from the Death Guard codex:

Plague Host

Affects all troop units in Death Guard detachments of a Battle Forged army. Such a unit that is within range of an objective marker controls that objective marker even if there are more enemy models within range of it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I absolutely accept this could be game breaking for certain armies, but can be mitigated by letting Battleshock take its toll, rather than blocking it.

How does letting battleshock happen reduce the effectiveness of this in any way? Battleshock doesn't magically stop your opponent from killing more models to farm even more easy VP. They're still free to continue killing a unit even past the point where the battleshock roll is going to finish it off. Any army with horde infantry is crippled by this, and the only counter is to not put horde infantry on the table at all.

Plus, you still need to draw the damn thing, so not exactly something you can build a tactic around,

And this is why it's absolutely stupid design. You either fail to draw the objective and nothing happens, or you randomly draw the objective and automatically win the game. There's no middle ground, and whether or not you get the auto-win draw is entirely up to random dice.

(This of course is just an extension of the basic reason why maelstrom games suck and should never be played.)

Probably because killing 49 (for the full draw) models, even Conscripts, is a tall order for one turn? One way or the other, this TO will mean your Conscripts or blob squad is in for a kicking.

Battleshock still deals with the unit, but the Deathguard player doesn't get VPs for those running away.

Simple mitigation of loss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
Here is another nugget from the Death Guard codex:

Plague Host

Affects all troop units in Death Guard detachments of a Battle Forged army. Such a unit that is within range of an objective marker controls that objective marker even if there are more enemy models within range of it.

Imperial Marines have much the same thing. It's a decent counter when you're inevitably outnumbered, and helps keep the game flowing, compared to 'arses, he's just sort of camped on objectives'

It's a nice bonus for hurting swarm and blob armies.

To be honest, I'm far more impressed by the potential of reliably-useable "every model in the unit takes a wound on" abilities, which strikes me as the best weapon to punish huge blobs.

Weapons whose rate of fire increase with the size of the target (the lord of skulls 'belly flamer' is one example) are another.

I see 2 reasons why this won't fix anything.

You need to draw it in your first turn, otherwise you probably don't have the firepower to kill 49 GEQ.

The factions that get this kind of stratagem need to be at least about as strong as IG, otherwise it is safer to just pick IG or Imperial soup to win tournaments.
If not, winning tournaments is just about not getting matched against one of the few DG players.

IMHO that card is way too powerful. It could have been ok with a limit of max 3 VP, not 7. Killing 30-50 cheap bodies is extremely easy if you face an horde army, if you want to focus on that objective it's almost impossible not to get at least 5 VPs.

It may be acceptable only if hordes are a real hard counter for deathguard, but it doesn't seem the case.

Not that easy when you're Deathguard, as they don't tend to come in very high numbers. That of course restricts the number of shots you can kick out in a given turn, without factoring in needing to be in range.

I don't think this is a huge counter to Ork hordes, as they will table a death guard army 8 times out of 10 anyway. It is the assault cannon spamming Guilliman parking lot that keeps Orks players awake at night.