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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Hello all,

Just bringing this to peoples attention

we looked at the new Ad Mech Stratagems and one of our group spotted something odd with Scryerskull.
Basically what it says is for 1 command point you can make a unit make a shooting attack which can ignore certain special rules in some scenarios.
Nothing too OP at this point.

However there is zero restriction on this Stratagem.

So heres the logic - you can as written, use this stratagem in the movement phase, psychic phase, assault phase to keep making a unit shoot.
use this on any big shooting unit and as written fire hundreds of shots for 4 or 5 command points. do it turn 1 and it will almost certainly be a win.

We thought it cant be right - or at the very least its not what was intended - but the wording on the stratagem is so poor it can be interpreted as we have done.
We asked the 40k facebook page and got this response



Thoughts?

Thanks

Thyphs
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






RaW that's right, you can use it to shoot at any time.

I expect this will be errata'd pretty fast.

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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Definitely will get errata'd fast.

This is one of those stratagems were the intent was there when the author wrote it, they knew what they meant but weren't clear in the writing.

"You are my unbroken blades. You are the Death Guard. By your hand shall justice be delivered, and doom shall stalk a thousand worlds."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


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Made in au
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Brisbane, Australia

I imagine the 'no mistake' part was just confirmation that you were correct by the it functioning that way strictly speaking, rather than confirmation that it's meant to be like that (especially with the following comment about bringing it up with the rules writers).

Multiple thin coats are always better than one thick coat.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I imagine the 'no mistake' part was just confirmation that you were correct by the it functioning that way strictly speaking, rather than confirmation that it's meant to be like that (especially with the following comment about bringing it up with the rules writers).

From The Meriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Definition of make no mistake

—used to stress the truth or accuracy of a statement
Make no mistake (about it), if we don't address these problems now, they will only get worse.

They were '... stressing the or accuracy of the statement...' that it was a good question.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker




Vegas

If you are talking about castelan robots,mthey have a mode that can make 18 shots per robot, instead of 9, so double the potential output.

I got a feeling that they will do something like orbital bombardment, and make it usable once per game. Otherwise, I won't even bother playing against my Ad Mech friend.

Autocorrect is for light slapping nun shoes! 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Ad Mech has a 1CP Shoot Again stratagem.

That can be used any time.

K.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Arkaine wrote:
Ad Mech has a 1CP Shoot Again stratagem.

That can be used any time.

K.
Wotz dis mukin abawt? Da Red 'humies iz ment to go fasta, not 'ave moar dakka!

I would genuinely be shocked if this isn't given immediate errata in the 1.0 FAQ. GW might have inbred Basset Hounds for editors, but they have been exceptionally fast with their FAQs even by normal standards, not just "12 years between codexes" standard.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 BaconCatBug wrote:
I would genuinely be shocked if this isn't given immediate errata in the 1.0 FAQ. GW might have inbred Basset Hounds for editors, but they have been exceptionally fast with their FAQs even by normal standards, not just "12 years between codexes" standard.


Perhaps. DG have a few burning questions that need answering and it's been a few weeks. CSM got their FAQ around the same time frame.

They might be waiting a bit to release several different FAQs in a batch

"You are my unbroken blades. You are the Death Guard. By your hand shall justice be delivered, and doom shall stalk a thousand worlds."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5600 | 2800 | 850 | 4000 | 3300 | 550

 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Then again, they've also gone months before without updating anything.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in au
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Brisbane, Australia

 Arkaine wrote:
Then again, they've also gone months before without updating anything.

Not anytime recently though, codex FaQs have been coming out about a fortnight after release.

Multiple thin coats are always better than one thick coat.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think the RAI is that it can shoot anytime it is eligible to shoot ignoring tho listed rules.

But yes, currently RAW it looks like it can shoot anytime with the strategem.
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





WA

It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.

   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.


The shoot-twice Slaanesh-Strategem from CSM doesn't say "make a shooting attack" either. It just says, very similar, that a unit can shoot again (though the CSM is limited in that it does specify the exact moment it must be used, i.e. end of shooting phase).

But I agree that yours is almost certainly the intend. Unfortunately, the wordings aren't as clearly delineated between "may shoot" and "may make a shooting attack" in other 8th edition texts, so a FAQ would be helpful.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.
well see. If it's in errata they are right if it's in the FAQ you are right


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either way doesn't matter

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/28 19:45:56


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Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





WA

Wonderwolf wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.


The shoot-twice Slaanesh-Strategem from CSM doesn't say "make a shooting attack" either. It just says, very similar, that a unit can shoot again (though the CSM is limited in that it does specify the exact moment it must be used, i.e. end of shooting phase).

But I agree that yours is almost certainly the intend. Unfortunately, the wordings aren't as clearly delineated between "may shoot" and "may make a shooting attack" in other 8th edition texts, so a FAQ would be helpful.


That is not an out-of-sequence attack, just a second iteration of the same thing in the same phase.

Take a gander at Auspex Scan for language concerning shooting attacks out-of-phase.

   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine






 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Wonderwolf wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.


The shoot-twice Slaanesh-Strategem from CSM doesn't say "make a shooting attack" either. It just says, very similar, that a unit can shoot again (though the CSM is limited in that it does specify the exact moment it must be used, i.e. end of shooting phase).

But I agree that yours is almost certainly the intend. Unfortunately, the wordings aren't as clearly delineated between "may shoot" and "may make a shooting attack" in other 8th edition texts, so a FAQ would be helpful.


That is not an out-of-sequence attack, just a second iteration of the same thing in the same phase.

Take a gander at Auspex Scan for language concerning shooting attacks out-of-phase.


Fundamentally, I think this is a huge error on GW's part for not using clear language.

It says that at any time, you may make a shooting attack that is unmodified by any penalties specific to a set of mission rules.

Logically, any shooting attack that is not used in those mission is a shooting attack that is unmodified by the penalties of those specific missions, so it holds that as written, you may spend 1 CP to utilize this stratagem to fire at ANY point in the game.

I'm not arguing that this is the way it should be.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/28 20:48:38


 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





WA

It doesn't say make a shooting attack. In context of what is written, it is conditional to you shooting to have that benefit. Again, see Auspex Scan for how they handle allowing an out of sequence attack.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/29 00:48:53


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




There are people in this thread arguing that the rule isn't ambiguously written while even GW has said it is and that they reported it to their rules people.

At some point... you just have to admit it is written poorly. Especially when even GW says it is...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well get our answer in a matter of days in the mean time and after it is not something you can really exploit without consequence. So it's irrelevant what we think

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Okay so looks like this didn't get answered, i say we start using it in tournaments until GW gets off their ass and pays attention to the fething admech.

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




gendoikari87 wrote:
Okay so looks like this didn't get answered, i say we start using it in tournaments until GW gets off their ass and pays attention to the fething admech.


All that would result in is Dakkabots getting nerfed alongside the scryerskull rule in a classic GW overreaction move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 22:52:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Clay_Puppington wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
Okay so looks like this didn't get answered, i say we start using it in tournaments until GW gets off their ass and pays attention to the fething admech.


All that would result in is Dakkabots getting nerfed alongside the scryerskull rule in a classic GW overreaction move.


you mean like they did with conscripts?

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Looks like some accidentally wacky wording. Load up on CPs and fire that Knight every Phase, including your opponent's! Yay, how fun.

I mean, the intent is clearly to just use in your own Shooting Phase in those specific missions to avoid a penalty, but the opening 'at any time' line breaks it bigtime.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's still unclear and thus can be argued for and against. Which makes it bad wording. It's kind of a rorshack test that way. Personally raw I say it's actually both with rai being in your phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/02 17:13:15


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Made in us
Dangerous Outrider





Seattle,WA

Rules as Written abuse - why limit yourself to one per phase? You can spend as many Command Points as you want during Deployment (pg 215, BRB). Burn through all your Command Points with volleys of heavy phosphor / neutron lasers before the first turn even begins.

Side effects include: instant TFG branding, no friends, flipped tables

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Any use of this outside your shooting phase will render you TFG

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Swan-of-War wrote:
Rules as Written abuse - why limit yourself to one per phase? You can spend as many Command Points as you want during Deployment (pg 215, BRB). Burn through all your Command Points with volleys of heavy phosphor / neutron lasers before the first turn even begins.

Side effects include: instant TFG branding, no friends, flipped tables

Except you can't use this stratagem pre-game.

Also if you get upset at someone following the rules of the game, that says more about you than it does your opponent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/02 19:52:13


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





WA

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Also if you get upset at someone following the rules of the game, that says more about you than it does your opponent.


There is "following the rules" and then there is "following the rule strictly in order to take advantage of poor wording". Pretty clear difference to those of us who care about sportsmanship and being a player others want to play with. Not some purity-driven rules lawyer - that belong in the MtG circle, not in 40k, because GW can't write rules worth a crap.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:

Also if you get upset at someone following the rules of the game, that says more about you than it does your opponent.


There is "following the rules" and then there is "following the rule strictly in order to take advantage of poor wording". Pretty clear difference to those of us who care about sportsmanship and being a player others want to play with. Not some purity-driven rules lawyer - that belong in the MtG circle, not in 40k, because GW can't write rules worth a crap.
Dang it bacon i am not supposed to agree with MNOP, stop making me do that.

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