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Hello all,

Just bringing this to peoples attention

we looked at the new Ad Mech Stratagems and one of our group spotted something odd with Scryerskull.
Basically what it says is for 1 command point you can make a unit make a shooting attack which can ignore certain special rules in some scenarios.
Nothing too OP at this point.

However there is zero restriction on this Stratagem.

So heres the logic - you can as written, use this stratagem in the movement phase, psychic phase, assault phase to keep making a unit shoot.
use this on any big shooting unit and as written fire hundreds of shots for 4 or 5 command points. do it turn 1 and it will almost certainly be a win.

We thought it cant be right - or at the very least its not what was intended - but the wording on the stratagem is so poor it can be interpreted as we have done.
We asked the 40k facebook page and got this response



Thoughts?

Thanks

Thyphs

RaW that's right, you can use it to shoot at any time.

I expect this will be errata'd pretty fast.

Definitely will get errata'd fast.

This is one of those stratagems were the intent was there when the author wrote it, they knew what they meant but weren't clear in the writing.

I imagine the 'no mistake' part was just confirmation that you were correct by the it functioning that way strictly speaking, rather than confirmation that it's meant to be like that (especially with the following comment about bringing it up with the rules writers).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I imagine the 'no mistake' part was just confirmation that you were correct by the it functioning that way strictly speaking, rather than confirmation that it's meant to be like that (especially with the following comment about bringing it up with the rules writers).

From The Meriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Definition of make no mistake

—used to stress the truth or accuracy of a statement
Make no mistake (about it), if we don't address these problems now, they will only get worse.

They were '... stressing the or accuracy of the statement...' that it was a good question.

If you are talking about castelan robots,mthey have a mode that can make 18 shots per robot, instead of 9, so double the potential output.

I got a feeling that they will do something like orbital bombardment, and make it usable once per game. Otherwise, I won't even bother playing against my Ad Mech friend.

Ad Mech has a 1CP Shoot Again stratagem.

That can be used any time.

K.

 Arkaine wrote:
Ad Mech has a 1CP Shoot Again stratagem.

That can be used any time.

K.

Wotz dis mukin abawt? Da Red 'humies iz ment to go fasta, not 'ave moar dakka!

I would genuinely be shocked if this isn't given immediate errata in the 1.0 FAQ. GW might have inbred Basset Hounds for editors, but they have been exceptionally fast with their FAQs even by normal standards, not just "12 years between codexes" standard.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I would genuinely be shocked if this isn't given immediate errata in the 1.0 FAQ. GW might have inbred Basset Hounds for editors, but they have been exceptionally fast with their FAQs even by normal standards, not just "12 years between codexes" standard.

Perhaps. DG have a few burning questions that need answering and it's been a few weeks. CSM got their FAQ around the same time frame.

They might be waiting a bit to release several different FAQs in a batch

Then again, they've also gone months before without updating anything.

 Arkaine wrote:
Then again, they've also gone months before without updating anything.

Not anytime recently though, codex FaQs have been coming out about a fortnight after release.

I think the RAI is that it can shoot anytime it is eligible to shoot ignoring tho listed rules.

But yes, currently RAW it looks like it can shoot anytime with the strategem.

It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.

The shoot-twice Slaanesh-Strategem from CSM doesn't say "make a shooting attack" either. It just says, very similar, that a unit can shoot again (though the CSM is limited in that it does specify the exact moment it must be used, i.e. end of shooting phase).

But I agree that yours is almost certainly the intend. Unfortunately, the wordings aren't as clearly delineated between "may shoot" and "may make a shooting attack" in other 8th edition texts, so a FAQ would be helpful.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.

well see. If it's in errata they are right if it's in the FAQ you are right


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either way doesn't matter

Wonderwolf wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.

The shoot-twice Slaanesh-Strategem from CSM doesn't say "make a shooting attack" either. It just says, very similar, that a unit can shoot again (though the CSM is limited in that it does specify the exact moment it must be used, i.e. end of shooting phase).

But I agree that yours is almost certainly the intend. Unfortunately, the wordings aren't as clearly delineated between "may shoot" and "may make a shooting attack" in other 8th edition texts, so a FAQ would be helpful.

That is not an out-of-sequence attack, just a second iteration of the same thing in the same phase.

Take a gander at Auspex Scan for language concerning shooting attacks out-of-phase.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
It just says you shoot without the penalties, not that you make a shooting attack.

Not really unclear at all. This is just reaching.

The shoot-twice Slaanesh-Strategem from CSM doesn't say "make a shooting attack" either. It just says, very similar, that a unit can shoot again (though the CSM is limited in that it does specify the exact moment it must be used, i.e. end of shooting phase).

But I agree that yours is almost certainly the intend. Unfortunately, the wordings aren't as clearly delineated between "may shoot" and "may make a shooting attack" in other 8th edition texts, so a FAQ would be helpful.

That is not an out-of-sequence attack, just a second iteration of the same thing in the same phase.

Take a gander at Auspex Scan for language concerning shooting attacks out-of-phase.

Fundamentally, I think this is a huge error on GW's part for not using clear language.

It says that at any time, you may make a shooting attack that is unmodified by any penalties specific to a set of mission rules.

Logically, any shooting attack that is not used in those mission is a shooting attack that is unmodified by the penalties of those specific missions, so it holds that as written, you may spend 1 CP to utilize this stratagem to fire at ANY point in the game.

I'm not arguing that this is the way it should be.

It doesn't say make a shooting attack. In context of what is written, it is conditional to you shooting to have that benefit. Again, see Auspex Scan for how they handle allowing an out of sequence attack.

There are people in this thread arguing that the rule isn't ambiguously written while even GW has said it is and that they reported it to their rules people.

At some point... you just have to admit it is written poorly. Especially when even GW says it is...

Well get our answer in a matter of days in the mean time and after it is not something you can really exploit without consequence. So it's irrelevant what we think

Okay so looks like this didn't get answered, i say we start using it in tournaments until GW gets off their ass and pays attention to the fething admech.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Okay so looks like this didn't get answered, i say we start using it in tournaments until GW gets off their ass and pays attention to the fething admech.

All that would result in is Dakkabots getting nerfed alongside the scryerskull rule in a classic GW overreaction move.

Clay_Puppington wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Okay so looks like this didn't get answered, i say we start using it in tournaments until GW gets off their ass and pays attention to the fething admech.

All that would result in is Dakkabots getting nerfed alongside the scryerskull rule in a classic GW overreaction move.

you mean like they did with conscripts?

Looks like some accidentally wacky wording. Load up on CPs and fire that Knight every Phase, including your opponent's! Yay, how fun.

I mean, the intent is clearly to just use in your own Shooting Phase in those specific missions to avoid a penalty, but the opening 'at any time' line breaks it bigtime.

It's still unclear and thus can be argued for and against. Which makes it bad wording. It's kind of a rorshack test that way. Personally raw I say it's actually both with rai being in your phase.

Rules as Written abuse - why limit yourself to one per phase? You can spend as many Command Points as you want during Deployment (pg 215, BRB). Burn through all your Command Points with volleys of heavy phosphor / neutron lasers before the first turn even begins.

Side effects include: instant TFG branding, no friends, flipped tables

Any use of this outside your shooting phase will render you TFG

 Swan-of-War wrote:
Rules as Written abuse - why limit yourself to one per phase? You can spend as many Command Points as you want during Deployment (pg 215, BRB). Burn through all your Command Points with volleys of heavy phosphor / neutron lasers before the first turn even begins.

Side effects include: instant TFG branding, no friends, flipped tables

Except you can't use this stratagem pre-game.

Also if you get upset at someone following the rules of the game, that says more about you than it does your opponent.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Also if you get upset at someone following the rules of the game, that says more about you than it does your opponent.

There is "following the rules" and then there is "following the rule strictly in order to take advantage of poor wording". Pretty clear difference to those of us who care about sportsmanship and being a player others want to play with. Not some purity-driven rules lawyer - that belong in the MtG circle, not in 40k, because GW can't write rules worth a crap.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Also if you get upset at someone following the rules of the game, that says more about you than it does your opponent.

There is "following the rules" and then there is "following the rule strictly in order to take advantage of poor wording". Pretty clear difference to those of us who care about sportsmanship and being a player others want to play with. Not some purity-driven rules lawyer - that belong in the MtG circle, not in 40k, because GW can't write rules worth a crap.

Dang it bacon i am not supposed to agree with MNOP, stop making me do that.