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2017/10/02 16:05:37
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yodhrin wrote: Yup. And not content with assaulting old ladies, they've moved on to 15 year old kids:
Don't believe everything you see on Twitter and similar webs about the evil Guardia Civil assaulting kids yesterday. That's a screenshot from a video taken in 2012.
d-usa wrote: This is really taking the usual "Police vs Fire" rivalry to a new level, we gotta step up our game here in the US:
Fair play to the firefighters there though, and props to them. "You want to show up in protective gear and helmets to beat people up, well we got our own protective gear and helmets. Don't make us get the hoses..."
Another fake. The video shows no violence just a face off between police blocking the way to a "voting" station and the firefighters trying to force the way in, not protecting the people as you say. The violent thumbnail is from 2013 riots against budget cuts where the violence was started by firefighters trying to burn things in front of the Catalonia`s Parliament.
There is a propaganda war that the Spanish police has lost just by seeing the reactions in this thread tho it doesn't surprise me knowing about the traditional British press bias against Spain.
M.
PS: BTW the evil jackbooted thugs suppressing the heroic firefighters in that thumbnail and Metro article are the Mossos d'Escuadra. Another set of heroes from Sunday that usually feel more comfortable repressing Catalonian citizens at the beck and call of the regional government. /sarcasm
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 11:02:08
2017/10/04 00:48:02
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Something about sovereignty and not interfering in internal business...
Since when did the EU ever care about that?
Well, they don't care about those things if it is Russia or any other country they dislike, that much is sure.
I remember when they sent EU officials to Ukraine to appear at the Kiev rallies and officially endorse the revolution.
They didn't care about national sovereignty then, so why would they care now?
Thats rhetorical. We all know its because they don't actually care about human rights and they have nothing to gain.
Are you seriously comparing Sunday with the Maidan events that left 500+ people dead?
No I'm not, I'm comparing the EU's response and eagerness to interfere in Ukraine vs their reluctance to interfere in Spain.
They only care about national sovereignty when convenient and they have nothing to gain from interfering.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jeez, the Guarda Civil are a bunch of Nationalist thugs. Heres a photo of Policemen in their hotel waving Spanish flags and jeering at protesters outside.
1st. Get your facts right those agents are Policía Nacional not Guardia Civil.
3rd. As I've said before you are giving incomplete information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HdJnmkUMlU Why are you posting a thumbnail and not the whole video? Could be because if you give the whole picture your argument of Nationalist thugs loses strength?
Jeering thugs taunting the defenseless civilians or a close knit group of professionals in a very difficult position cheering each other to raise morale? Is that cheering and crying "'¡Viva España!", a hail to one's own country, a sign of Fascism nowadays?
Fun fact of that video. Minute 2.20 onward Mossos D`Scuadra (Regional police) arrest a woman that tried to fly a Spanish flag in support of the Policía Nacional near one of the hotels where they were lodged. I'm sure you and everybody else posting in this thread were unaware of that and I'm holding my breath while I await your condemnations for this violation of her free speech rights.
On the other hand you could get the whole picture but that involves reading something more complicated that a tweet with an impacting photo before commenting. Yes the police response was heavy handed but we have the same issue in every US shooting thread if a police officer on duty tells you to comply with law X and you fail to do so who is to blame then for the consequences?
Lone Cat wrote: 1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
2. Is this incident reacing 'Crisis' status? and what will EU do?
AFAIK. the seccession movements like this one requires a HUGE DEAL of international recognition of the movements.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Howard A Treesong wrote: These photos will play to the independence movement. That an unofficial but peaceful referendum was shut down by the government using this level of force shows how much they fear Catalonia.
16% of Spain's population live in Catalonia, and it produces:
25.6% of Spain's exports
19% of Spain's GDP
20.7% of foreign investment
These figures I got from the BBC say it all. An area of the country more than pulls its weight per head of capita in investment, exports and wealth creation.
'Modern democracy' in Spain is only 40 years old, many of those in government grew up under Franco so you can see why the old ways of doing things are not that much of a stretch.
And it was made possible with an unlikely benefactor... The Bourbon King Juan Carlos I of Spain.
I've read his defiant act against Franquist Coup... and this 'formed' Spanish Democracy it is today.
The hell you are talking? Maybe it is difficult to understand for you coming from Thailand where the king has more power and influence in the running of the country but in Spain King Felipe VI is the nominal head of the Army but that's where it stops and the Army swears fealty to the Constitution and obeys the government as the representative of the will of the Spanish people. If the King were to say "go and overthrow the government" I don't think any of the current crop of generals would lift a finger other than to write an email saying something along the lines of the King is drunk and joking around, don't mind him.
M.
2017/10/05 11:42:52
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
2017/10/05 14:23:27
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
Spain was largely dominated by Muslim governments until the late 1400's.
By early 12th Century Muslims controlled less than half the country and it was the less populated half other than the Mediterranean Coast. Only reason the Christian kingdoms took so long to beat the crap out of the is because between the big pushes South they were more interested in killing each other as long as the Taifas behaved.
M.
2017/10/05 14:41:02
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
The Ummayad Caliphate controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula after the Romans.
Poor Visigoths, they were the ones that started the idea of Spain (Hispania) as a country and had the uncontested rule over the whole country for 200 years but nobody remembers them.
Answering your comment about the Umayyad Caliphate. The troops of the Caliphate entered Spain conquered most of it circa 718 but by 756 the Umayyad dynasty fled from Abbasid forces and established a exile government in Cordoba where they continued their rule over Al Andalus and part of North Africa for about 150 years or so before collapsing. So no, Spain did not become independent from the Caliphate the same way Poland and occupied France didn't become independent from Nazi Germany when WW2 ended. First Al Andalus or Muslim Spain became the Caliphate, and after a 700 year war in Spain the Christian Kingdoms kicked out the descendants of the invaders. It's just that as usual Spaniards were more interested in fighting each other than pushing South for most of the time.
M.
2017/10/11 06:47:14
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Spain doesn't have a referendum on keeping the Monarchy or becoming a republic for the same reasons the UK isn't having one either. There's just not enough public support for that.
20% tops.
Obviously that's the percentage of the population that should be allowed to vote. We cannot have majorities voting the wrong thing. Or so some people were saying last election when Mr Rajoy managed to barely scrap by. If old people don't know how to vote the "correct" choice they shouldn't be allowed to vote at all.
M.
2017/11/03 00:55:42
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
European arrest warrants. people in custody without bail
It's also amusing when Spain talks about not recognising rebels.
The USA is technically a rebel province. The Republic of Ireland is technically a rebel provence. Kosovo, WHICH SPAIN DID NOT RECOGNIZE, IS a rebel province AS FAR AS SPAIN IS CONCERNED. And yet, Spain recognises these 2 nations.
The Madrid government's logic is all over the place and worst of all, they have made martyrs for the Catalan indy movement.
The Swiss Navy has had more success than Rajoy's government.
There fixed it for you. Tho looking at your prior posting history it doesn't surprise me that you made such an egregious mistake, as pointed out by Jouso in certain issues your "facts fly in the face of your feels" Now you could search online about how Preventive prison works in Spain, when and why you can go into preventive prison and how bail works. But as it will be difficult to find it in English I'll help you with that, one thing that weighs heavily in the mind of a Spanish judge when sending somebody to preventive prison is if the accused will keep committing the crime or destroy evidence during the time the investigation is going on. These persons public and notoriously have been saying they don't care about what the Spanish laws say, they are rebels as you pointed out.
But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.
M.
2017/11/03 01:33:12
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.
M.
A grossly unfair comment, there is no evidence to suggest that if the pro-independence Catalans encouraged or orchestrated violence that anyone here would support that.
There have been several people critical of the Spanish government who have noted that the pro-independence movement has operated peacably.
Here you are, some peace for you! I started the video at the peaceful moments just for you. And that video also answers one of your questions. why the so called "Jordis" are in preventive prison? For arranging and coordinating that mob that happily destroyed three police cars while besieging the agents for almost a full day. Riot police are not usually the more diplomatic of the lot, but something that never fails to set them off is to throw stones at them, try to kick a mate on the head, charge against the police lines... all those things that the videos decrying police brutality never bothered to show, lest they give viewers a chance to think that police brutality might not have been unprovoked.
Also if Catalonians were receiving a dose of Francoism, currently the Spanish government would be encouraging Ford to move their car factory from Valencia to Barcelona like his government did with SEAT, building new highways to connect with France were the rest of the country had to do with barely decent roads, rewarding books written in Catalan (https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2014/03/cuando-franco-premiaba-libros-en-catalan/ ) and in general pampering Catalonia and Barcelona over other regions of Spain... oooops sorry I might be going against the official line that Catalonians are the most repressed peoples in Spain since the times of Julius Caesar, disregard all the facts and keep feeling.
