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1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
2. Is this incident reacing 'Crisis' status? and what will EU do?
AFAIK. the seccession movements like this one requires a HUGE DEAL of international recognition of the movements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
These photos will play to the independence movement. That an unofficial but peaceful referendum was shut down by the government using this level of force shows how much they fear Catalonia.

16% of Spain's population live in Catalonia, and it produces:

25.6% of Spain's exports
19% of Spain's GDP
20.7% of foreign investment

These figures I got from the BBC say it all. An area of the country more than pulls its weight per head of capita in investment, exports and wealth creation.

'Modern democracy' in Spain is only 40 years old, many of those in government grew up under Franco so you can see why the old ways of doing things are not that much of a stretch.

And it was made possible with an unlikely benefactor... The Bourbon King Juan Carlos I of Spain.

I've read his defiant act against Franquist Coup... and this 'formed' Spanish Democracy it is today.

I think it depends on what the Catelonians do next. If they move forward with enacting a secessionist plan, it likely will lead to armed conflict.

 Lone Cat wrote:
1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).

As a general rule, Catalan independentists don't like the military and the military doesn't like Catalans. So if it comes to a punching match we are going to lose big time. Sure, maybe we'd manage to pull a Vukovar or a Grozny, but let's be real. We don't have any easy channel for foreign volunteers or guns to come in, we don't have guns just lying around everywhere, we have, for quite a while, expressed revulsion towards militarism, and as much as I'd like some polite green men, we're out of luck on that one too.

As for the Royal House, the king spoke yesterday, but I couldn't care less about what he said so I didn't watch it. Taking a look at the transcription he basically supported the central government and told catalans that our institutiuons have lied to us and that the police is going to save us from those dangerous antidemocratic criminals.

Not a fething word of dialogue, or about the wounded, or about closing wounds or anything.

Granted, when the central government can call the people demonstrating pacifically "nazi fanatic mobs" and "mobsters" and describe our situation as "nazism straight out of the 40s" what's to expect, huh? Goodwin's law doesn't apply to real life.

Maybe we'll UDI, maybe they'll suspend our autonomy, maybe they will put 2 Million people in jail. And horrible gak will happen and people will die and whatever. Because a fictitious "Unity" of Spain is more important than anything in the world ever.

On that note, the Catalan President is speaking in about an hour, we'll see what he has to say.


Also, clearing some things up, while the coalition between nationalist left and nationalist right seem to be the ones running the show, the people on the street and the ones that have the keys to the train here in catalonia are the far-left anti-capitalists, and they've cut the brakes, they are the ones that have rallying capacity, and the support of the young people.

Good luck Catalonia!!

I haven't been able to find a transcript or a video of President Puidgemont's statement, but I gather he said that either this week or monday Catalonia would declare independence.

Odds on him being arrested before that date?

jbeil wrote:
I haven't been able to find a transcript or a video of President Puidgemont's statement, but I gather he said that either this week or monday Catalonia would declare independence.

Odds on him being arrested before that date?

I gathered that. Parliament voting on somthing on Monday regarding independence.

They expect people to be arrested etc.
However right now mediation is needed not arrests. Arresting people will only make it ever harder for a peaceful solution.

I Don, t see it helping the situation.
People need to sit down and talk. Not send in there companies of thugs.

jbeil wrote:
I haven't been able to find a transcript or a video of President Puidgemont's statement, but I gather he said that either this week or monday Catalonia would declare independence.

Odds on him being arrested before that date?

I couldn't either, but from what my parents (who could find the time to listen to it) told me he basically said the king's speech was disappointing and asked for dialogue.

And said that on Monday we're leaving as expected.

Basically I think he's trying to get a negotiation of any kind going to justify postposing the UDI, because if he doesn't have an excuse and doesn't UDI on Monday someone else is going to do it for him.


So dis is gonna bi Gud. BRB, gonna stock up on preserved foodstuffs.


As for police arresting everyone involved? Yeah, good luck with that. That's just gonna make it worse! Boy, we're in for a rough ride.

 Lone Cat wrote:
1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
2. Is this incident reacing 'Crisis' status? and what will EU do?
AFAIK. the seccession movements like this one requires a HUGE DEAL of international recognition of the movements.

LOL. This is a modern military, garrison location doesn't mean alleigance.

Anyways. Catalonians are unlikely to get support from the military. Aside from the existing anymosity between the two, the percentage of catalonians in the spanish army is laughable, barely reaching 3.5% of the active manpower (and the ratio is likely to further shrink if we add in active reserve) and most of them are likely to be from the Red Belt and similars.

 aldo wrote:

jbeil wrote:
I haven't been able to find a transcript or a video of President Puidgemont's statement, but I gather he said that either this week or monday Catalonia would declare independence.

Odds on him being arrested before that date?

I couldn't either, but from what my parents (who could find the time to listen to it) told me he basically said the king's speech was disappointing and asked for dialogue.

And said that on Monday we're leaving as expected.

Basically I think he's trying to get a negotiation of any kind going to justify postposing the UDI, because if he doesn't have an excuse and doesn't UDI on Monday someone else is going to do it for him.


So dis is gonna bi Gud. BRB, gonna stock up on preserved foodstuffs.


As for police arresting everyone involved? Yeah, good luck with that. That's just gonna make it worse! Boy, we're in for a rough ride.

Yeah. Stock up on canned food. Bottled water and other basics. It might be a wise idea.

As for Police. Yes that would make things extremely bad...
More people hurt. That only make the tension ever higher
Last thing you need to add is mayters..

 aldo wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).

As a general rule, Catalan independentists don't like the military and the military doesn't like Catalans. So if it comes to a punching match we are going to lose big time. Sure, maybe we'd manage to pull a Vukovar or a Grozny, but let's be real. We don't have any easy channel for foreign volunteers or guns to come in, we don't have guns just lying around everywhere, we have, for quite a while, expressed revulsion towards militarism, and as much as I'd like some polite green men, we're out of luck on that one too.

As for the Royal House, the king spoke yesterday, but I couldn't care less about what he said so I didn't watch it. Taking a look at the transcription he basically supported the central government and told catalans that our institutiuons have lied to us and that the police is going to save us from those dangerous antidemocratic criminals.

Not a fething word of dialogue, or about the wounded, or about closing wounds or anything.

Granted, when the central government can call the people demonstrating pacifically "nazi fanatic mobs" and "mobsters" and describe our situation as "nazism straight out of the 40s" what's to expect, huh? Goodwin's law doesn't apply to real life.

Maybe we'll UDI, maybe they'll suspend our autonomy, maybe they will put 2 Million people in jail. And horrible gak will happen and people will die and whatever. Because a fictitious "Unity" of Spain is more important than anything in the world ever.

On that note, the Catalan President is speaking in about an hour, we'll see what he has to say.


Also, clearing some things up, while the coalition between nationalist left and nationalist right seem to be the ones running the show, the people on the street and the ones that have the keys to the train here in catalonia are the far-left anti-capitalists, and they've cut the brakes, they are the ones that have rallying capacity, and the support of the young people.

It doesn't matter that the central government has more guns than the Catalans. The army isn't going to shoot unarmed citizens (not unless they want to be disarmed by an international peacekeeping mission. The EU may be reluctant to intervene in internal affairs of Spain, when people start getting killed, that reluctance is going to fade very very quickly.). With unarmed, peaceful resistance even the strongest empires can be defeated. Just ask Gandhi. Because it is the underdog and because of Spanish brutality, Catalonia already has international sympathy on its side. If the Catalan government plays this right, their position will be very strong. What is going to happen depends entirely on their next moves.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 aldo wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).

As a general rule, Catalan independentists don't like the military and the military doesn't like Catalans. So if it comes to a punching match we are going to lose big time. Sure, maybe we'd manage to pull a Vukovar or a Grozny, but let's be real. We don't have any easy channel for foreign volunteers or guns to come in, we don't have guns just lying around everywhere, we have, for quite a while, expressed revulsion towards militarism, and as much as I'd like some polite green men, we're out of luck on that one too.

As for the Royal House, the king spoke yesterday, but I couldn't care less about what he said so I didn't watch it. Taking a look at the transcription he basically supported the central government and told catalans that our institutiuons have lied to us and that the police is going to save us from those dangerous antidemocratic criminals.

Not a fething word of dialogue, or about the wounded, or about closing wounds or anything.

Granted, when the central government can call the people demonstrating pacifically "nazi fanatic mobs" and "mobsters" and describe our situation as "nazism straight out of the 40s" what's to expect, huh? Goodwin's law doesn't apply to real life.

Maybe we'll UDI, maybe they'll suspend our autonomy, maybe they will put 2 Million people in jail. And horrible gak will happen and people will die and whatever. Because a fictitious "Unity" of Spain is more important than anything in the world ever.

On that note, the Catalan President is speaking in about an hour, we'll see what he has to say.


Also, clearing some things up, while the coalition between nationalist left and nationalist right seem to be the ones running the show, the people on the street and the ones that have the keys to the train here in catalonia are the far-left anti-capitalists, and they've cut the brakes, they are the ones that have rallying capacity, and the support of the young people.

It doesn't matter that the central government has more guns than the Catalans. The army isn't going to shoot unarmed citizens (not unless they want to be disarmed by an international peacekeeping mission. The EU may be reluctant to intervene in internal affairs of Spain, when people start getting killed, that reluctance is going to fade very very quickly.). With unarmed, peaceful resistance even the strongest empires can be defeated. Just ask Gandhi. Because it is the underdog and because of Spanish brutality, Catalonia already has international sympathy on its side. If the Catalan government plays this right, their position will be very strong. What is going to happen depends entirely on their next moves.

I desperately hope you are right, but I am tremendously cynical about the European Union - I think unless people are being gunned down by the hundreds in the streets and all the cameras are showing it, Juncker and Barnier won't say anything that risks upsetting a member of their project. I really doubt that it will come to that - on Monday Puidgemont will declare a UDI, and probably ask the police and armed forces to leave Catalonia. After that, I doubt they'll leave.

The more I think about it, the less likely a happy end to all this seems. I hope the Catalans get their independence but I doubt it. More likely that the leadership will be arrested and apart from international condemnation, not a thing will be done about it. I suppose I should count my lucky stars I'm not a Catalan.

For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.

 Galas wrote:
For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.

This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Galas wrote:
For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.

This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.

Because Spain thought it would be a great chance to make a fresh batch of tastelessly offensive memes;

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Galas wrote:
For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.

This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.

Yeah. Our goverment is very, very incompetent. And historically, the central goverment has always give privileges to the Catalonian goverment because during many legislatures, they have been key to achieve enough votes to become president.

 Lone Cat wrote:
1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).
2. Is this incident reacing 'Crisis' status? and what will EU do?
AFAIK. the seccession movements like this one requires a HUGE DEAL of international recognition of the movements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
These photos will play to the independence movement. That an unofficial but peaceful referendum was shut down by the government using this level of force shows how much they fear Catalonia.

16% of Spain's population live in Catalonia, and it produces:

25.6% of Spain's exports
19% of Spain's GDP
20.7% of foreign investment

These figures I got from the BBC say it all. An area of the country more than pulls its weight per head of capita in investment, exports and wealth creation.

'Modern democracy' in Spain is only 40 years old, many of those in government grew up under Franco so you can see why the old ways of doing things are not that much of a stretch.

And it was made possible with an unlikely benefactor... The Bourbon King Juan Carlos I of Spain.

I've read his defiant act against Franquist Coup... and this 'formed' Spanish Democracy it is today.

The hell you are talking? Maybe it is difficult to understand for you coming from Thailand where the king has more power and influence in the running of the country but in Spain King Felipe VI is the nominal head of the Army but that's where it stops and the Army swears fealty to the Constitution and obeys the government as the representative of the will of the Spanish people. If the King were to say "go and overthrow the government" I don't think any of the current crop of generals would lift a finger other than to write an email saying something along the lines of the King is drunk and joking around, don't mind him.

M.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Galas wrote:
For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.

This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.

Because that's the Spanish tories you're talking about. Unlike in other countries where there's some kind of proper right party (AfD in Germany, LePenists in France, PVV in Netherlands, etc.) the Spanish PP gathers their support from everything that's slightly right off center, and of course the further to the right, the more vocal they got.

Rajoy has been derided as too soft by significant sectors of his own party for quite some time now and, electorally speaking, it's just nice that there is some sort of not-really-outside enemy that covers up the seemingly endless stream of political corruption that is hitting the news since the last regional elections where they lost a lot of regional governments and key cities (of the big cities, only in Málaga was the PP able to hold).

This heavy-handed approach that appeals to their loyalist (for lack of a better term) base plays right into the Catalan separatists who, unable to get a majority have been playing the victim card for a couple election cycles, too.... and in pushing their voter base into a frenzy have jumped a quasi-anarchist party like the CUP as holding the key to the government.

So of course the easiest course of action would be to just make a proper referendum, let people vote making extremely clear what leaving Spain entails (out of the euro, out of the EU, yadda yadda) and people still want to go for it, so be it. In any case, yesterday one biopharma manufacturer (Oryzon) quietly moved their operating base from Barcelona to Madrid (the second company in the stock exchange to do so on the last year) , and both main Catalan banks announced contingency plans to move their base to Madrid in case of an UDI.

This is still in the teenagers looking tough phase, it's now time for adults to take over.

 aldo wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
1. Will this escalate into a full scale armed conflict? If so what are the loyalties of the Spanish Troops stationed there? do they still loyal to the Bourbons or will they join the seccessionists? (Will there be someone like General Robert E. Lee in the 21st Century?). or will the Spanish 'Parliament' solves this in time and do the same wonders Juan Carlos I did in the past? (where he is an Idol to the modern Constitutional Royalists).

As for the Royal House, the king spoke yesterday, but I couldn't care less about what he said so I didn't watch it. Taking a look at the transcription he basically supported the central government and told catalans that our institutiuons have lied to us and that the police is going to save us from those dangerous antidemocratic criminals.

That's the shame. Spanish Bourbons are reverting back to the old ways of Louis XIV of France. (where their ancestors came from)... "
Throughout history. the Bourbons (Either in France or Spain) are quite a conservative and repressive Catholic leaders. By the Time Louis XVI was being ousted. Spain still runs the Inqiusition, and Jews are the favorite subjects to the Inquisitors bully. Only with the comings of Bonapartes (Arch nemesis to the Bourbons) did the Inquisition dissolved.

Not sure if the Heresy still a high crime by the 18th and 19th century Spain? (and when has it been decriminalized)

 Miguelsan wrote:
The hell you are talking? Maybe it is difficult to understand for you coming from Thailand...

Nah dude, it's not because he's from Thailand. It's just, this is LoneCat. This is what he does. Takes little bits of historical knowledge and runs with it in all kinds of amazing ways. Try and have fun with it, enjoy spending a minute or two pretending to live in LoneCat's world where anything and everything is caused by whatever historical tidbit LoneCat just read about.

jouso wrote:


This is still in the teenagers looking tough phase, it's now time for adults to take over.

sorry for the shameless self-quote.

Adults like this Verhofstadt chap, for example.

 jhe90 wrote:
As predicted.

Thr Catalans president has been given no reason to the not do this...

They sent in the thugs, it ratcheted up the situation badly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-41493014

"Catalans president on about independence"

Yeah well Spain revealed they care more about money and influence from there than the citizens there. No wonder they want out of country that only wants money from you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Galas wrote:
For people hoping that Catalonia get their independence... the independentists population of Catalonia is less than the 45%. One way or another, Catalonia isn't gonna be independent.

This is the part I can't understand. The separatists are colossal asshats who ignore their own constitution; why would the central government throw away an automatic moral high ground and feth themselves over like they've done? It's a truly special kind of incompetence.

Something that could have been said of America when they seceded, Finland. Spain itself when they seceded...

Let's face it. No country actually makes allowances in law for part to separate. If independence would be dependant on that we wouldn't have most if any countries we have now.

No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does. They couldn't reach the 2/3rds majority they themselves had set up for this type of decision but decided to run with it anyway. There's a reason voter turnout was less than 50%; the remainers boycotted the election because it's illegal even by the Catalonian government's own standards. It's not just Madrid throwing a tantrum, it's the Catalonian government ignoring the democratically decided (Catalonian, not national!) laws because they have their own agenda.

Which is why the excessive force is extra dumb.

Aye, I imagine the correct response (otherwise known as how I would have done it) would have been something along the lines of, "you realise by your own constitution this isn't legal, once you have that 2/3rds, we as the central gov wil be more than happy to help organise a referendum" *proceeds to throw money at the remain campaign*.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Aye, I imagine the correct response (otherwise known as how I would have done it) would have been something along the lines of, "you realise by your own constitution this isn't legal, once you have that 2/3rds, we as the central gov wil be more than happy to help organise a referendum" *proceeds to throw money at the remain campaign*.

Granting a referendum and throwing money at the remain campaign to ettle an issue has had pretty 50/50 results in recent attempts...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.

*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.

What about our own secession from Spain in the 80 Years War?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.

*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.

That'll reach me to be sloppy.

What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.

*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.

Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).

If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.

Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.

tneva82 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.

*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.

Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).

If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.

Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.

A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.

*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.

Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).

If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.

Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.

A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.

M.

The Ummayad Caliphate controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula after the Romans.