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2023/06/02 07:26:52
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
JNAProductions wrote: They were also S5 AP-2 D1 with d6+3 shots in 9th.
10th, they're down to S4 AP-1 D1 and d6 shots.
In an edition where you overwatch every turn the second profile with auto hit is a lot better than the first one.
Is it?
You're looking at slightly less than one wound to a MEQ per Flamer. Increase to just over one wound if they hit at S5.
You need around two and a half Flamers to do a wound to a TEQ. S5 drops that to just shy of two.
Old profile, even without +1 to-wound, was just shy of killing a Marine in one phase with no rerolls.
Two nearly killed a TEQ, unless they had a Storm Shield.
So, if your optimal target charges you first (and they don't feed a chaff unit into the Flamers first, or not charge with the unit you want to shoot, or have some way of negating Overwatch) you're doing similar damage to a MEQ, and less to a TEQ over the two shooting phases as the old profile did in one.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2023/06/02 07:27:10
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
So you'd agree it's not very hard to write rules for unit vs model?
It can be, they've thought ahead and put enough safety breaks in this time. There's been enough editions of problematic character interactions to show it's not that simple in a lot of ways, but this time round they're both spelling out the limitations and restricting the interaction points.
So what you're complaining about them doing, is making it simpler to prevent messy interactions.
On a mildly related note, your ethos of "It's easy, GW are just so bad they make you think its hard. You just have to think of the whole game at once, it's easy, trust me." Doesn't hold much weight either.
2023/06/02 07:30:02
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
JNAProductions wrote: They were also S5 AP-2 D1 with d6+3 shots in 9th.
10th, they're down to S4 AP-1 D1 and d6 shots.
In an edition where you overwatch every turn the second profile with auto hit is a lot better than the first one.
Is it?
You're looking at slightly less than one wound to a MEQ per Flamer. Increase to just over one wound if they hit at S5.
You need around two and a half Flamers to do a wound to a TEQ. S5 drops that to just shy of two.
Old profile, even without +1 to-wound, was just shy of killing a Marine in one phase with no rerolls.
Two nearly killed a TEQ, unless they had a Storm Shield.
So, if your optimal target charges you first (and they don't feed a chaff unit into the Flamers first, or not charge with the unit you want to shoot, or have some way of negating Overwatch) you're doing similar damage to a MEQ, and less to a TEQ over the two shooting phases as the old profile did in one.
You don't need them charging you. That's the big difference. You just pay 1Cp and get a free shooting phase with them.
2023/06/02 07:30:42
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
JNAProductions wrote: They were also S5 AP-2 D1 with d6+3 shots in 9th.
10th, they're down to S4 AP-1 D1 and d6 shots.
In an edition where you overwatch every turn the second profile with auto hit is a lot better than the first one.
Is it?
You're looking at slightly less than one wound to a MEQ per Flamer. Increase to just over one wound if they hit at S5.
You need around two and a half Flamers to do a wound to a TEQ. S5 drops that to just shy of two.
Old profile, even without +1 to-wound, was just shy of killing a Marine in one phase with no rerolls.
Two nearly killed a TEQ, unless they had a Storm Shield.
So, if your optimal target charges you first (and they don't feed a chaff unit into the Flamers first, or not charge with the unit you want to shoot, or have some way of negating Overwatch) you're doing similar damage to a MEQ, and less to a TEQ over the two shooting phases as the old profile did in one.
You don't need them charging you. That's the big difference. You just pay 1Cp and get a free shooting phase with them.
How does the new Overwatch work?
And I'd rather do all my damage in one shooting phase without spending a CP, than do that same damage over two phases by spending a CP.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2023/06/02 07:41:16
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
You don't need them charging you. That's the big difference. You just pay 1Cp and get a free shooting phase with them.
Hardly free when costs your cp pool of that turn. To cause less damage(with 2 shooting) than 1 round of shooting of old did.
So 1 round of shooting does more than 2 and to get 2 you need to pay cp cost that's higher than it was before.
And of course old normal+overwatch was more than twice as good as this for cheaper cp price.
Hmm no. At least if you don't refer to pre nerf flamers, then yeah sure but... I don't think anyone was referring to them.
1d6+3 S5 AP-2 D1 shots at BS3+ are more than twice as good as 1d6 S4 AP-1 D1 shots, even without rerolls or other buffs, against MEQ and TEQ at least.
Meaning that even if you get two shooting phases to the one of the 9th Flamers, you're still worse off.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2023/06/02 07:49:26
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
You don't need them charging you. That's the big difference. You just pay 1Cp and get a free shooting phase with them.
Hardly free when costs your cp pool of that turn. To cause less damage(with 2 shooting) than 1 round of shooting of old did.
So 1 round of shooting does more than 2 and to get 2 you need to pay cp cost that's higher than it was before.
And of course old normal+overwatch was more than twice as good as this for cheaper cp price.
Hmm no. At least if you don't refer to pre nerf flamers, then yeah sure but... I don't think anyone was referring to them.
I was referring to them, as they were so good that a nerf was needed, and even my fellow demon players accepted that.
even at str 4, i can see them getting some good use in their deep strike bomb role. but honestly, id be happy if they weren't "must have 18" strong like they were when the demon dex dropped.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
2023/06/02 07:53:27
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
You don't need them charging you. That's the big difference. You just pay 1Cp and get a free shooting phase with them.
Hardly free when costs your cp pool of that turn. To cause less damage(with 2 shooting) than 1 round of shooting of old did.
So 1 round of shooting does more than 2 and to get 2 you need to pay cp cost that's higher than it was before.
And of course old normal+overwatch was more than twice as good as this for cheaper cp price.
Hmm no. At least if you don't refer to pre nerf flamers, then yeah sure but... I don't think anyone was referring to them.
Round of shooting plus overwatch new is worse than 1 round of old. Even vs infantry. Vs vehicles monsters etc where you wounded on 4+ vs 6 now where it's even more ridiculous.
And if you look why autohit was removed but not here the pre-nerf is absolutely must look level. Otherwise you don't see why they were so oppressive.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2023/06/02 07:56:45
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Lightly armoured infantry moving into range to shoot you or prep for assault need to be wary of flamer units.
Spending a CP at that point could let you neuter those guys before they shout/assault you. In that scenario you have spent one CP to damage the enemy and (effectively) reduce the damage you are about to receive.
Of course, it won’t always be worth it. Terrain may reduce effectiveness, but I don’t think it should be written off because it’s poor into MEQ.
Souleater wrote: Lightly armoured infantry moving into range to shoot you or prep for assault need to be wary of flamer units.
Spending a CP at that point could let you neuter those guys before they shout/assault you. In that scenario you have spent one CP to damage the enemy and (effectively) reduce the damage you are about to receive.
Of course, it won’t always be worth it. Terrain may reduce effectiveness, but I don’t think it should be written off because it’s poor into MEQ.
Oh sure-I don't doubt Flamers will be a nice unit.
But the post was...
Biasn wrote: After looking at the tzeentch flamer datasheet im confused. Shouldnt psychic weapons be stronger than their counterparts since the psychic keyword is a massive nerf on its own? Str 4 -1 1 is just a joke so these guys have to be really cheap or otherwise absolutly useless even with their deep strike.
They are likely 30+ points each.
Fast, resilient, deep strike, fall back and shoot, torrent weapon, ignore cover.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if these models become staples of demon lists.
People really underestimate torrent weapons in this edition.
Which seems pretty excessive.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2023/06/02 08:02:28
Subject: Re:10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Oh I wasn’t specifically responding to you, JNAProductions, rather the general ‘flamers/torrent’ part and I guess Overwatch in general.
I understand we get fewer CP in Xth, but I think the ability to snapshot at a unit when it gives into view, I think that CP could well be well spent in the right circumstances.
1.) Space Marines, encompassing all flavors, are hardly the only factions with multi-equip option units that didn’t traditionally have everything in a box.
Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Astra Militarum for the Imperium.
Chaos Knights (the Despoiler Knight) for Chaos.
And for Xenos; Drukhari, Genestealer Cults, Harlequins, Leagues of Votann, Orks and T’au Empire.
All have major units that didn’t have everything they could equip in a single kit.
Even then we have partial exceptions. Custodes have forge world only weapon upgrades for their troop unit. Eldar Autarchs now are split between two kits for options, etc.
Titans don’t come with weapons at all, they have to be bought separate but Forgeworld factions are also weird.
Treating partial options as not counting. Only Custodes, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Daemons, Asuryani, Necrons and Tyranids are unaffected.
Per 9th edition conventions, I count 23 factions including both flavors of Titans. Only 7 are unaffected thus 16/23 factions are. That’s almost 70%!
2.) Even for the unaffected, they still are because of over consolidation from a pure rules perspective. How long until both weapons of Necron Warriors are made one because they aren’t distinctive enough?
3.) Despite this being an ongoing reality from the beginning of the game. Multi-option kits didn’t stop new units from being made at all.
Horus Heresy itself has loads of units, mainly infantry, that are purely different based on what they’re equipped with. Yet upgrade kits still make perfect sense.
The thing about gazillion options is that they work in a game like Kill Team, and there I welcome them. In a much larger game they fit less. Mind you, I don't mind gazillion options on heroes as they are the creme de la creme, but for regular troops in game the size of 40k they are just a burden(in my mind).
Now, if we were still playing games the size of 2nd edition my opinion would be changed, but that game has long sailed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/02 08:15:46
2023/06/02 08:18:14
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Souleater wrote: Lightly armoured infantry moving into range to shoot you or prep for assault need to be wary of flamer units.
Spending a CP at that point could let you neuter those guys before they shout/assault you. In that scenario you have spent one CP to damage the enemy and (effectively) reduce the damage you are about to receive.
Of course, it won’t always be worth it. Terrain may reduce effectiveness, but I don’t think it should be written off because it’s poor into MEQ.
Oh sure-I don't doubt Flamers will be a nice unit.
But the post was...
Biasn wrote: After looking at the tzeentch flamer datasheet im confused. Shouldnt psychic weapons be stronger than their counterparts since the psychic keyword is a massive nerf on its own? Str 4 -1 1 is just a joke so these guys have to be really cheap or otherwise absolutly useless even with their deep strike.
They are likely 30+ points each.
Fast, resilient, deep strike, fall back and shoot, torrent weapon, ignore cover.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if these models become staples of demon lists.
People really underestimate torrent weapons in this edition.
Which seems pretty excessive.
The ones on the old cost had a 6+ save in melee. Now they have a flat 4+. I believe that they will be 33-35 each. They are simply too mobile and resilient to cost less.
2023/06/02 08:18:26
Subject: Re:10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
I have noticed some people complain that these datasheets are dog gagh.
I get the feeling people want less lethality except their own faction, for reasons that are not within my purvey. Personally I like these datasheets even if it will feel strange to not use Mortarion as a psyker.
I also have no idea how to put images into spoilers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/02 08:21:38
2023/06/02 08:30:53
Subject: Re:10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
whats with the 7+ save? why not just have a "N/A option" if you want them reliant on thier invul?
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
2023/06/02 08:40:28
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Spoletta wrote: Technically with a 7+ you save on a 6+ in cover if we ever get effects which ignore invulns.
i suppose, but it seems just....akward. like, how many ignore invuls are you going to encounter that dont ALSO have at least one pip of AP?
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
2023/06/02 08:49:52
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Spoletta wrote: Technically with a 7+ you save on a 6+ in cover if we ever get effects which ignore invulns.
i suppose, but it seems just....akward. like, how many ignore invuls are you going to encounter that dont ALSO have at least one pip of AP?
Ahriman's power is one f.ex.
Ahrimann doesn't ignore invulnerables. Ahrimann doesn't ignore any saves actually though allows using army ability for free to ignore that 7+ save. Yey.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2023/06/02 08:56:57
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Again I have to ask: In the new Deathwing Command Squad rules, a Cyclone cannot upgrade his Storm Bolter/Fist to anything else. Am I right in saying that this is a change, as he can right now?
Yep it's a change. Power/chain fist only now, bit of a pain for some as the missile launcher/melee option is quite popular, and potentially similar wording might carry over to Deathwatch too (if they even still have a unique terminator squad).
2023/06/02 09:24:46
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Why on earth did they take away the flail and the icon for plague marines?
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2023/06/02 09:29:59
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Tl;dr: June 24th is the best estimate for a release date.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
Watch Company Rho 1650pts
