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2023/06/23 12:43:53
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Agamemnon2 wrote: The only winning move is not to play. Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.
to date the only decently balanced games I have ever played have all come from a company not trying to sell a miniatures line alongside it
nothing wrong with how GW operates but its not compatible with a balanced game, or where is the incentive for a constant churn of armies?
the only plus side is that by now everyone should know this
the downsides for players are many, e.g. the unbalanced nature of most starter boxes is likely to put off a lot of players as the idea that you play the game twice, one way round each largely doesn't apply
2023/06/23 13:03:58
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Literally no one here has said that balance doesn't matter, or that it only matters for competitive players.
The point ERJAK was making is that online discussion about game balance can present a very distorted view, giving people the impression that every casual pickup game they play will be against some broken list that wipes them by turn two. In reality there's a pretty wide range of factions with a wide range of lists, most of which have few or only minor issues.
What's more, often the broken rules require specific army lists & models ready to exploit. Much of the time only the more competitive players have the resources and experience to use these flawed rules in the period before they get stamped out, like how the Deathwatch combo was quickly squashed. I find it hard to believe there were many casual players getting hopelessly wrecked by black space marines in that 48 hour period.
It's fair to assume that the vast majority of casual players either haven't played 10th yet (it is actually released tomorrow), or have only played smaller practice games. Rumour has it there's a major balance update imminent, so it's possible those people never even experience the cause of all this drama.
My reply will probably get drowned in incoming discussion about IA datasheets, but I just wanted to respond quickly.
ERJAK's point was fine but it doesn't apply to my position at all. ERJAK is a competitive player who only cares about tournament-level gameplay. I am the opposite - I want as much balance as GW can possibly give me, but I don't want it at the cost of lore verisimilitude, or at the cost of granularity. GW threw both of those things I care about the most out the window. Goonhammer ignored that fact and sugarcoated all the other changes. That's what I take issue with. And of course, the game will be massively imbalanced for awhile... but that's always the case with an edition change, I'm not surprised about that. That's not what I'm up in arms about.
Anyway, I just want to make sure my point is made - I own 10s of thousands of points of painted minis across many different factions, some OP in 10th and some basement-level. I read the rules, saw the points -> PL changes, and said I wasn't interested (and expressed my disinterest through posts on dakka and reddit). Nothing about that is toxic, and I'd appreciate Goonhammer not trying to gaslight my position as such.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/23 13:11:36
2023/06/23 13:12:12
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Well they're certainly not worth 305 each (especially when the Tyrannofex is over 100 points less), and giving up two bio-cannons for +2 Scything Talon Attacks and a flamer that doesn't ignore cover is pretty lame, or I don't get why a 'Dule's ScyTals are only AP-2 buuuuuuuuuut I am happy to see that the Hierodules have profiles that are actually quite tough.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/23 13:15:45
leopard wrote: I'd argue balance matters for narrative and open play even more
And you'd be entirely correct. This argument that balance only matters for competitive players gets brought up all the time, and is always wrong. Competitive players will adjust their armies to take whatever is currently most powerful and expect to face similarly powerful (or, in GW's case, broken) lists themselves. They might prefer to see better balance between factions, but ultimately it doesn't have much effect on them.
More casual players get hosed by bad balance, especially when it's as bad as GW often manage. I remember playing the 8.5 SM Codex for about 3 weeks, then shelving my SM army because it was just not a fun experience for anyone. The same applied in 9th with people playing against Tyranids. When an entire book is just massively better than everything else, casual players are usually the ones to get most disheartened because they often don't understand why they're constantly losing and usually aren't having fun because of the disparity in power. I've seen it happen too often and I've seen enthusiastic players leave the game entirely because of it. These are players who would never have had any intention of going anywhere near a tournament.
Literally no one here has said that balance doesn't matter, or that it only matters for competitive players.
The point ERJAK was making is that online discussion about game balance can present a very distorted view, giving people the impression that every casual pickup game they play will be against some broken list that wipes them by turn two. In reality there's a pretty wide range of factions with a wide range of lists, most of which have few or only minor issues.
What's more, often the broken rules require specific army lists & models ready to exploit. Much of the time only the more competitive players have the resources and experience to use these flawed rules in the period before they get stamped out, like how the Deathwatch combo was quickly squashed. I find it hard to believe there were many casual players getting hopelessly wrecked by black space marines in that 48 hour period.
It's fair to assume that the vast majority of casual players either haven't played 10th yet (it is actually released tomorrow), or have only played smaller practice games. Rumour has it there's a major balance update imminent, so it's possible those people never even experience the cause of all this drama.
I'm also arguing that OP stuff doesn't matter nearly as much as UP stuff, but people's fantasies about getting robbed on the top table because a Wraithknight did 72 mortal wounds thanks to fate dice, is a lot cooler to think about (and easier to get outraged over) than your day to day gaming group ending most games with 'yeah, sorry man...they really need to buff Deathguard.'
2023/06/23 13:25:38
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
ERJAK wrote: I'm also arguing that OP stuff doesn't matter nearly as much as UP stuff, but people's fantasies about getting robbed on the top table because a Wraithknight did 72 mortal wounds thanks to fate dice, is a lot cooler to think about (and easier to get outraged over) than your day to day gaming group ending most games with 'yeah, sorry man...they really need to buff Deathguard.'
some people might think so but others are totally fine with that:
Sarouan wrote: The narrative players just have a different view on balance, simply because they don't play the game while looking only with optimized lists in a vaccuum or even perfectly symetric battles. They do choose their lists to build a narrative, and thus "restraint themselves" by not taking units that do not fit it, optimized or not.
For example, if a battle is underground and vehicles don't fit the narrative of the game to play, lists can be build with infantry type only. Suddenly an eldar army list without bikes or vehicles do not feel the same in game.
Narrative players do understand that balance without real context is meaningless. There is no problem when players stop taking into account building the best list ever as if itself was the endgame. It's not.
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2023/06/23 13:29:13
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Would it kill them to alphabetize these download lists?
"Points for these units will are available in the Munitorum Field Manual 2023 Mk I"
On the highlighted text, someone must have changed how they were going to originally release the points. Also sounds like we won't get the points for these units for free like all the other units in the game?
<EDIT> Ah, I see it's in the already online points manual. Wonder why they didn't link to it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/23 13:39:16
It never ends well
2023/06/23 13:37:52
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Would it kill them to alphabetize these download lists?
"Points for these units will are available in the Munitorum Field Manual 2023 Mk I"
On the highlighted text, someone must have changed how they were going to originally release the points. Also sounds like we won't get the points for these units for free like all the other units in the game?
The free download has the Imperial Armour points in it. It's Ver 1.1 now.
2023/06/23 13:40:07
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
A D6+3 Heavy Flamer with +1 AP and Damage for 285 pts (Malcador Infernus) might actually be the most overpriced thing I've ever seen in an official GW datasheet...
5500 pts 6500 pts 7000 pts 9000 pts 13.000 pts
2023/06/23 14:23:03
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
MinscS2 wrote: A D6+3 Heavy Flamer with +1 AP and Damage for 285 pts (Malcador Infernus) might actually be the most overpriced thing I've ever seen in an official GW datasheet...
Are you surprised? It checks all bases:
It's fw It's a malcador.
It's a Flame tank.
There wasn't one edition it was ever good, or passable even
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2023/06/23 14:29:55
Subject: Re:10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Tantalus seems good. I own one and I'm glad that I can keep fielding it as the centrepiece of my raiding forces without hindering myself. Gotta stuff some Incubi and Drazhar inside.
I particularly like the upgraded pulse disintegrators
Drukhari - 4.7k
Chaos Space Marines - 2.9k
Space Marines - 2.7k
Harlequins - 0.75k
2023/06/23 14:35:50
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Zachectomy wrote: Videogame industry level quality control. When did releasing first draft level products become the new normal? How hard is it for a multi-million dollar company to hire an editor?
as I have learned today on this forum:
GW is a miniature company and not a card printing company and for sure not a gaming company you should not expect what you would expect from a card printing company or a gaming company
they don't have enough people to proof read and it is not their job to hier people doing it
/s
Oh pipe down, there's a long gap between that hyperbole and not understanding software design at a business level.
They should have proof read more and hire more editors, but they're not multi-millon by aimlessly lobbing money at stuff, thus expect them to continue being tight arsed and working on minimal staff.
Today I learned that releasing reasonably complete and polished products by having basic quality control is "aimlessly lobbing money at stuff". Brilliant
2023/06/23 14:36:36
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Not sure about Mechanicus, but everything Heretic Astartes has been relegated to Legends. Absolutely hilarious, considering that we've had Dreadclaws since 2002, and all of the "Legended" daemon engines have always been 40k units. I'll provide more salt once I get a day off, but for now:
What. A. Joke. Especially since Loyalist Scum kept the Astreus, Thunderhawks, and codex access to Contemptors.
2023/06/23 14:52:12
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Did the colossus ever even have a model? I remember the bombard did, but I think the colossus just appeared in a Guard codex at some point, but was never released.
Trickstick wrote: Death Korps marshals are so good. I'm expecting to see a lot of them. Guardsmen with 5+ fnp...
Removing a 20 man Krieg squad in cover or behind an Aegis is going to be hard with that fnp, and the medic..
M.
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
2023/06/23 14:54:13
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
keep in mind they brought in "twin linked" initially to stop weapons getting too many shots, many many years back - also when you could only fire one gun but had two it gave a benefit within the rules of the day
then GW being GW, gave twin linked to just about anything any Imperial (and many other) vehicles had, and thus the era of "can re-roll misses" was born, because more dice is more better right?
yes it made no sense how strapping two HMG together made one of them more accurate without the chance for both to ever hit but never mind, ignore the bloke behind the curtain and run with it
then came 8th when if it was twin linked it now got the full rate of fire, with other ways to re-roll to hit as well, which would have been fine if GW hadn't spent a decade doubling up weapons on anything and everything.. hence idiocy like the Custards jet bike having more guns than an entire Panzer division could dream of
to be honest I used to want to fire with every barrel, but then I got my wish, and I'm not sad to see it go back to what it was to be honest
2023/06/23 14:54:15
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels
Trickstick wrote: Did the colossus ever even have a model? I remember the bombard did, but I think the colossus just appeared in a Guard codex at some point, but was never released.
Then they merged the two into the "Colossus Bombard".
And now the Colossus has the weapon profile of the Griffon. Cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/23 14:55:45
Trickstick wrote: Did the colossus ever even have a model? I remember the bombard did, but I think the colossus just appeared in a Guard codex at some point, but was never released.
Then they merged the two into the "Colossus Bombard".
And now the Colossus has the weapon profile of the Griffon. Cool.
Kind of flies in the face of "no model no rules".
Also it doesn't have indirect, but has the anti + devastating combo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/23 14:56:47
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
