Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Looking for some clarification on Pheromone Trail after the Nid FAQ. I believe from looking how Daemons work with summoning that Nids can now use the Lictor to essentially drop pod in an Infantry unit of any choice. Pheromone Trail is worded:

"Use this stratagem when a Tyranids Infantry unit from your army is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements if there is already a Lictor from your army on the battlefield. You can set up the unit wholly within 6" of the Lictor and more than 9" from any enemy models, rather than following the normal rules for setting up that unit."

So in Matched Play if i allocate enough points as Reinforcement Points as per pg.214 of rulebook, i can use the Lictor to deepstrike in (as he has that rule), then use the Pheromone Trail stratagem to set up a unit from my reinforcement points next to the Lictor. And that unit doesn't have to written on my list ever, as i make it up on the spot from my reinforce points like CSM do with summoning whatever they feel like that turn?


FAQ allows same time deployment.
Q: When using the Pheromone Trail Stratagem, can you bring
the Lictor onto the battlefeld in the same turn as the unit that it
acts as a homing beacon for?
A: Yes – simply bring the Lictor onto the battlefeld
before the other unit



I can't see any issues myself. So provided you guys can't either this looks pretty broken imo currently. But i do consider many other things currently broken like rejuvenating CPs :p

Thanks in advance

Why would it be broken though? And where did you get permission to create a new unit when the Stratagem tells you to use a "unit from your army"? From what I can tell you can use it only on units that already have a way to come in from reserves, because otherwise you couldn't "set up on the battlefield as reinforcements".

Yeah, we can't just summon in the same way...

nekooni wrote:
Why would it be broken though? And where did you get permission to create a new unit when the Stratagem tells you to use a "unit from your army"? From what I can tell you can use it only on units that already have a way to come in from reserves, because otherwise you couldn't "set up on the battlefield as reinforcements".

The permission comes from the Reinforcement Points Pool pg. 114 in the Rulebook.

 eskimo wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Why would it be broken though? And where did you get permission to create a new unit when the Stratagem tells you to use a "unit from your army"? From what I can tell you can use it only on units that already have a way to come in from reserves, because otherwise you couldn't "set up on the battlefield as reinforcements".

The permission comes from the Reinforcement Points Pool pg. 114 in the Rulebook.

Thats... the fluff for Craftworld Eldars? *edit* sorry, found it - its 214.

after having read that: It does not give you permission to generate anything from this pool. Summoning gives you something to do with those points, and Tyranids don't have that.

Pheromone Trail triggers when you bring in a unit - e.g. have a genestealer come in via an infestation thingy. Then you can use the stratagem to "redirect" the genestealer unit.

nekooni wrote:
Thats... the fluff for Craftworld Eldars?

Come on man, he gave you the rule and mistyped the page number. It's page 214.

 eskimo wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Why would it be broken though? And where did you get permission to create a new unit when the Stratagem tells you to use a "unit from your army"? From what I can tell you can use it only on units that already have a way to come in from reserves, because otherwise you couldn't "set up on the battlefield as reinforcements".

The permission comes from the Reinforcement Points Pool pg. 114 in the Rulebook.

I think the question is what effect is allowing you to spend those points? A Daemons player can set points aside and then spend those points being a summoning. Tau player doing the same has no real way to spend the points. Where is your permission to spend the points? The Lictor appears to bring in a unit that already exists in your army. It doesn't seem to have any wording allowing you to "summon" a new one using reinforcement points and THEN bring it along on a deep strike ride.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Thats... the fluff for Craftworld Eldars?

Come on man, he gave you the rule and mistyped the page number. It's page 214.

I found it now and I've updated the post. Sorry I took his word for granted since he mistyped it twice. You were too fast with the quote button, I had it updated like 20 seconds later.

Apologies, indeed a typo. Corrected first post.

The Reinforcements Points paragraph states that "sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed."

The ability is Pheromone Trail, and it's adding to the army via reinforcements.The permissions go hand in hand from how i am reading it. I can admit it seems sketchy, that's why i came here to discuss it and don't play competitive level stuff anyway.

The FAQ also states that we can no longer switch location with our reserves: (which prevents us transferring over deepstrike units)

Q: When a unit is set up in a locale other than the battlefeld,
can they change that locale (other than to be set up on the
battlefeld)? For example, if a unit is set up ‘within the tunnels’
as part of The Enemy Below, must they be set up on the
battlefeld following that Stratagem, or can they be set up in
another fashion?
A: They cannot change their locale. In the example,
they can only be set up on the battlefeld following the
conditions of The Enemy Below


So given that the only other way of using Pheromone Trail is to spawn other units from reinforcements by other stratagems which give specific deployment options for them, i'm left confused. Confused because these reinforcements require CPs and Reinforcement Points anyway.


The other reason i'm questioning Pheromone Trail, as my proposed example allows to list tailor slightly which is obviously not so cool.

You have this entirely wrong.

There is no summoning.

If a unit is in reserves you can redirect its coming onto the table to the lictor instead of whatever other way it would normally show up.

It doesnt allow you to place units in reinforcments. It doesnt allow you to spend your points mid game.

It mostly doesnt allow anything.

The one and only use i can find is allowing you to deepstrike a unit coming in from endless swarm instead of it coming in from a board edge.

 Lance845 wrote:
You have this entirely wrong.

There is no summoning.

If a unit is in reserves you can redirect its coming onto the table to the lictor instead of whatever other way it would normally show up.

It doesnt allow you to place units in reinforcments. It doesnt allow you to spend your points mid game.

It mostly doesnt allow anything.

The one and only use i can find is allowing you to deepstrike a unit coming in from endless swarm instead of it coming in from a board edge.

Thanks, I'd thought we couldn't summon! Just because Daemons can doesn't mean anyone can just save points and make units, right? Must admit I'm hazy on this one, but my take was as yours... this got nerfed into nothing. I'd used it to redirect Genestealers but now I can't do that? Greeeaaaat.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You have this entirely wrong.

There is no summoning.

If a unit is in reserves you can redirect its coming onto the table to the lictor instead of whatever other way it would normally show up.

It doesnt allow you to place units in reinforcments. It doesnt allow you to spend your points mid game.

It mostly doesnt allow anything.

The one and only use i can find is allowing you to deepstrike a unit coming in from endless swarm instead of it coming in from a board edge.

Thanks, I'd thought we couldn't summon! Just because Daemons can doesn't mean anyone can just save points and make units, right? Must admit I'm hazy on this one, but my take was as yours... this got nerfed into nothing. I'd used it to redirect Genestealers but now I can't do that? Greeeaaaat.

But isn't the purpose of Pheromone Trail specifically to redirect a unit coming in from "a locale"? It doesn't change the 'locale' where it's sitting in reserve - it simply tells the unit that's arriving to go somewhere else, doesn't it?

nekooni wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You have this entirely wrong.

There is no summoning.

If a unit is in reserves you can redirect its coming onto the table to the lictor instead of whatever other way it would normally show up.

It doesnt allow you to place units in reinforcments. It doesnt allow you to spend your points mid game.

It mostly doesnt allow anything.

The one and only use i can find is allowing you to deepstrike a unit coming in from endless swarm instead of it coming in from a board edge.

Thanks, I'd thought we couldn't summon! Just because Daemons can doesn't mean anyone can just save points and make units, right? Must admit I'm hazy on this one, but my take was as yours... this got nerfed into nothing. I'd used it to redirect Genestealers but now I can't do that? Greeeaaaat.

But isn't the purpose of Pheromone Trail specifically to redirect a unit coming in from "a locale"? It doesn't change the 'locale' where it's sitting in reserve - it simply tells the unit that's arriving to go somewhere else, doesn't it?

This changes the main one I'd have used:

Page 119 – Pheromone Trail
Add the following sentence:
‘You cannot use this Stratagem to affect a unit of reinforcements being set up by the Genestealer’s Infestation ability, or that are added to your army due to a unit’s ability.’

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This changes the main one I'd have used:

Page 119 – Pheromone Trail
Add the following sentence:
‘You cannot use this Stratagem to affect a unit of reinforcements being set up by the Genestealer’s Infestation ability, or that are added to your army due to a unit’s ability.’

Oh, yeah. That makes the whole thing pretty much pointless because anything else in reinforcements is already free to deploy anywhere they like (outside of 9'' of the enemy) if I remember correctly. I guess it's as useful as a second pair of Boneswords now.

Reinforcements are units that you bought with points and have on your army roster that have an ability to be set up as Reinforcement and deploy in a special way. They are part of your list from the start of the game.

Reinforcement POINTS are points you set aside to be used for such rules that create as new unit. Like Summoning which Chaos and GSC have, but I don't think any other Nids do.

So a Lictor can bring in a unit that you put in Reinforcements, but no where in its rules does it have permission to create NEW units.

-

So I don't understand how it works now? You can't redirect from another "locale" to the lictor. If it already has a way in from reserves, its already going to be placed 9" away already, so now Pheremone trail is basically useless since it can never be used? Or am I missing something?

There's the Termigants the Tervigon spawns, I guess?

Oh! And what about that Strat that Spawns a unit of 5 Genestealers?

No. Termagants spawnes by a tervigon are not in reinforcments. They instantly spawn.

It is basically useless. Again, its only use is endless swarm. Instead of showing up from a board edge they would show up at the lictor.

Its pointless.

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Termagants spawnes by a tervigon are not in reinforcments. They instantly spawn.

It is basically useless. Again, its only use is endless swarm. Instead of showing up from a board edge they would show up at the lictor.

Its pointless.

It's a real shame, as it would have allowed my small Stealer squad to pop up and chance a charge, whilst the big squad Kraken-propels across the board. First Codex FAQ nerf I've been properly sad about, haha.

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Termagants spawnes by a tervigon are not in reinforcments. They instantly spawn.

It is basically useless. Again, its only use is endless swarm. Instead of showing up from a board edge they would show up at the lictor.

Its pointless.

You have to spend renforcement points on them. How are they not reinforcements?

You can use it with Endless Swarm and Call the Brood

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Termagants spawnes by a tervigon are not in reinforcments. They instantly spawn.

It is basically useless. Again, its only use is endless swarm. Instead of showing up from a board edge they would show up at the lictor.

Its pointless.

You have to spend renforcement points on them. How are they not reinforcements?

Because Pheromone Trail isn't about making new units. It's about units that exist IN reinforcements entering the table. I.E. deepstrikers sitting in reserves. The unit has to actually exist off table and then enter the table for Pheromone Trail to redirect their deployment to the Lictor. Termagants spawned by a Tervigon don't exist off table. They exist, instantly, on the table at the moment they are spawned.

The only way for nids to get a unit into reserves to be effected by pheromone trail that wouldn't be able to just deepstrike itself in the exact same way anyway is with the Endless Swarm Stratagem since it creates a brand new unit, places them into reinforcements and allows them to enter from a board edge. Sometimes, i guess, you would want to send them to the lictor instead. If you had any reason why you would use Endless Swarm to begin with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Termagants spawnes by a tervigon are not in reinforcments. They instantly spawn.

It is basically useless. Again, its only use is endless swarm. Instead of showing up from a board edge they would show up at the lictor.

Its pointless.

It's a real shame, as it would have allowed my small Stealer squad to pop up and chance a charge, whilst the big squad Kraken-propels across the board. First Codex FAQ nerf I've been properly sad about, haha.

This and Spore Field not being FAQed to be more functional is a big let down.

The Nid dex is SO good. But the Norn Crown is useless (for another edition), SitW and IB should be based on Synapse range instead of their own range so boosts to Synapse would also boost SitW and IB.

Bsically SitW would effect any enemy units within 6" of any units synapse range and IB would shut down within 12" of any syanapse range. Then the Norn Croawn could increase Synapse by 6" and thus increase both of the other ranges. A HT with the Norn Crown would then have a 24" synapse, a 30" SitW and shut down IB at 36". THAT is a desirable artifact that I might take over one of our great artifact weapons. But Just a 30" IB shut down? Lame.

And we have like... 4 dud stratagems? Others are really great, but it sucks to see so many that will never be used.

Can you use it on Endless Swarm units though? Based on this discussion.

Essentially, the Endless Swarm unit would not have been a “unit from your army in reserve”, rather a unit that is created from reinforcement points that is then setup on your table edge once cashed in. As such, it didn’t technically start the game in “reserve”.

Is is possible this Stratagem is intended for Narrative Play? The Mode of play with scenarios with actual Reserves in it.

Very likely.

Kdash wrote:
Can you use it on Endless Swarm units though? Based on this discussion.

Essentially, the Endless Swarm unit would not have been a “unit from your army in reserve”, rather a unit that is created from reinforcement points that is then setup on your table edge once cashed in. As such, it didn’t technically start the game in “reserve”.

Sorry, I ignored that line of argument as it doesn't make any sense if you actually read the stratagems involved.They are set up as reinforcements per the stratagem after having been added to the army per the reinforcement point rules. this is the exact trigger of Pheromone Trail.

Endless Swarm wrote:Use this Stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. Select a unit of Termagants, Hormaganuts or Gargoyles (or any HYDRA INFANTRY unit) from your army that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6" of any board edge, more than 9" from enemy models.

Pheremone trail wrote:Use this Stratagem when a TYRANIDS INFANTRY unit from your army is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements if there is already a LICTOR from your army on the battlefield. You can set up the unit wholly within 6" of the LICTOR and more than 9" from any enemy models, rather than following the normal rules for setting up the unit.

In fact per the FAQ I don't think you can set units that are in reserve normally up using the Lictor. You definitely can't for Enemy Below, but that seems to me it would extend to other reserve methods too.

This stratagem is used for those units that are in the army list but are being deployed as reinforcements. This includes also units that are bought as reinforcements, such as endless swarm. Stratagem states that it has to be from your army, so you cannot create a new units. Intresting thing is, could it be used to deploy spore units from sporocyst or biovores.

 Spreelock wrote:
This stratagem is used for those units that are in the army list but are being deployed as reinforcements. This includes also units that are bought as reinforcements, such as endless swarm. Stratagem states that it has to be from your army, so you cannot create a new units. Intresting thing is, could it be used to deploy spore units from sporocyst or biovores.

You can't use it for units created by other units (FAQ) or for none infantry (Stratagem) so... double no.

Drager wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Can you use it on Endless Swarm units though? Based on this discussion.

Essentially, the Endless Swarm unit would not have been a “unit from your army in reserve”, rather a unit that is created from reinforcement points that is then setup on your table edge once cashed in. As such, it didn’t technically start the game in “reserve”.

Sorry, I ignored that line of argument as it doesn't make any sense if you actually read the stratagems involved.They are set up as reinforcements per the stratagem after having been added to the army per the reinforcement point rules. this is the exact trigger of Pheromone Trail.

Endless Swarm wrote:Use this Stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. Select a unit of Termagants, Hormaganuts or Gargoyles (or any HYDRA INFANTRY unit) from your army that has been completely destroyed. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcements wholly within 6" of any board edge, more than 9" from enemy models.

Pheremone trail wrote:Use this Stratagem when a TYRANIDS INFANTRY unit from your army is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements if there is already a LICTOR from your army on the battlefield. You can set up the unit wholly within 6" of the LICTOR and more than 9" from any enemy models, rather than following the normal rules for setting up the unit.

In fact per the FAQ I don't think you can set units that are in reserve normally up using the Lictor. You definitely can't for Enemy Below, but that seems to me it would extend to other reserve methods too.

Thanks for clearing that up - i was unfortunately going off "re-worded" stratagem descriptions while at work.

I already knew it was not for non-infantry, why do you keep telling things what I have already said.