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Looking for some rules clarification, as my brother and I disagree on two of the new Dark Angels Stratagems:

#1. Speed of the Raven (1CP): "Used when a RAVENWING unit has advanced this turn. That unit may still shoot and charge this turn."
Does this mean that a Ravenwing unit may shoot ANY Weapon Type (Assault/Rapid Fire/Heavy/Etc) after Advancing and using this stratagem? Or are you still limited to using ASSAULT Type weapons? I believe that it means you can Advance and then shoot ANY Weapon Type, as the stratagem does not say there are any limitations to what Weapon Type you can use. Since Assault Weapons can already be fired after advancing, I believe that IF the intent of the stratagem were only to add the ability for a model to CHARGE after Advancing, than the stratagem would have been worded, "Speed of the Raven (1CP): Used when a RAVENWING unit has advanced this turn. That unit may still CHARGE this turn." Versus what is written in the Codex: "SHOOT and CHARGE this turn". Otherwise, why would it say SHOOT and Charge if your weapons were still limited to only Assault Type weapons, as Assault weapons can already advance and shoot even without the stratagem.

#2. Intractable (2CP): "Used when a Dark Angels unit has fallen back. They can still shoot this turn."
Similar to above, They can still shoot this turn... Do they still take a minus 1 to hit after falling back? For TWO command points they better not. Ultramarines and Flyers can do so every turn, at minus 1 to hit, FOR FREE / ZERO CP. Be advised, the Ultramarine Tactics also specifically calls out the fact that they still take the minus 1 to hit so that there is no confusion. Not so with the Intractable Stratagem. I assume Intractable allows you to ignore the typical minus 1 to hit after falling back because of both the wording, and TWO command point cost.

Please let me know what you all think. If you have any evidence and/or sources to back up your argument that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

1. I believe the intent here was to let you shoot any type of weapon after advancing. Whether the -1 hit modifier affecting assault weapon would need to be clarified.

2. good question. Wait for the FAQ i'd say.

On 2 - there is no general rule that if you fall back you take a -1 to hit when shooting, so if the rule that allows you to shoot after falling back doesn't say so, there is no negative modifier. The stratagem in this case says nothing about any modifiers, so there is no reason to believe there would be any modifiers (due to the strat at least, if you're firing a Heavy weapon you still obviously take -1 because you moved). So ask your brother why he thinks there's a modifier.

Also, FLY keyword-holders don't suffer a -1 to hit for falling back, that is false.

For #1 - there is no reason to give permission to shoot if it didn't mean all weapons - as they are already able to fire assault weapons after advancing.

I'd bet the assault weapons still suffer -1 to hit, as the core rules clearly say that. It would be a really OP combo, getting a 4+ invul after advancing, shooting plasmas at no penalty with the Weapons of the dark age and sammys rerols and then charging. It just sounds wrong

Weapons of the dark age is so strong theres no need to game it to be stronger.

1 CP to add +1 damage to every plasma shot (whether you overcharged or not).

4 plasma cannons with reroll 1's is really nasty overcharged.

4d3 str 8 -3ap, d3+2 damage shots will wreck a whole lotta gak.

You can even have a luitenent nearby for reroll 1's to wound as well.

I can say for certainty that for #2 they don't have -1 to hit. There is nothing in the main rules about that, it's only the special Ultramarines rule that does that.

For #1, you could be nitpicky and say it's there to cover the RaW that you cannot advance and shoot ANY weapon type, but realistically it means that you can shoot all weapon types. However there doesn't seem to be any rule removing the -1 to hit for assault weapons after advancing, so they would still be -1 to hit.

Timur wrote:
I'd bet the assault weapons still suffer -1 to hit, as the core rules clearly say that. It would be a really OP combo, getting a 4+ invul after advancing, shooting plasmas at no penalty with the Weapons of the dark age and sammys rerols and then charging. It just sounds wrong

What about regular plasmaguns and not plasma talons?

Well if we are talking about regular plasma guns on regular ravenwing bike squad then we can only have 3 plasma guns, the combi for sergeant and 2 special weapon options. It is absolutely fine that in this case squad doesn't suffer any penalty since this is only 6 shots at rapid fire range, whereas a 10 man black knight squad may fire 20 shots and with the sams rerolls they might not even loose one model when supercharging. Thats ridicilous amount of damage and thats why the penalty must surely be applied, you probably wont think of supercharging given that youll blow yourself up on both 1 and 2s thats good limiting and a balancing factor to avoid black knight spam

Plus the startagem doesn't change the weapon type, so you can simply think of it as getting a round of shooting after advancing for all weapons and nothing more

So in case of Black knights theres just no point of using speed of the raven unless you want to charge after advancing. Even without the supercharge 10 knight may deliver up to 40 damage with the weapons of the dark age

10 man squad knight squad running around with the 4+ from jink, sams rerols, darkshorud and the talonmaster sounds pretty nasty even with -1 to hit penalty, simply dont supercharge and blow everyone away from range.

I bet the bike spam will be a thing for DA

Timur wrote:
Well if we are talking about regular plasma guns on regular ravenwing bike squad then we can only have 3 plasma guns, the combi for sergeant and 2 special weapon options. It is absolutely fine that in this case squad doesn't suffer any penalty since this is only 6 shots at rapid fire range, whereas a 10 man black knight squad may fire 20 shots and with the sams rerolls they might not even loose one model when supercharging. Thats ridicilous amount of damage and thats why the penalty must surely be applied, you probably wont think of supercharging given that youll blow yourself up on both 1 and 2s thats good limiting and a balancing factor to avoid black knight spam

Plus the startagem doesn't change the weapon type, so you can simply think of it as getting a round of shooting after advancing for all weapons and nothing more

So in case of Black knights theres just no point of using speed of the raven unless you want to charge after advancing. Even without the supercharge 10 knight may deliver up to 40 damage with the weapons of the dark age

10 man squad knight squad running around with the 4+ from jink, sams rerols, darkshorud and the talonmaster sounds pretty nasty even with -1 to hit penalty, simply dont supercharge and blow everyone away from range.

I bet the bike spam will be a thing for DA

Because dedicating 460 pts to spend 2 cps is way too OP? 10 RBK + DS + Talonmaster + Sammael is going to cost over 1k pts I presume. I think its too early to be statt saying "this is OP"

It looks like a few people are getting off topic, and debating whether or not the -1 to Hit Modifier for Assault Weapons is/isn't still applied after using the Speed of the Raven Stratagem after advancing. However, that was not my original question. Again, my question is remains, can you use ALL Weapon Types after advancing and using this stratagem, not JUST Assault Type Weapons. I'd really like for us to come to a consensus for my original question first, before we go onto what modifiers should be added to Assault Type Weapons and/or Heavy Type Weapons after advancing. For the record, I do believe all Weapon Types can be fired after advancing when using this stratagem, and all modifiers should be applied. Were they not, this would be a HUGE (Too Huge), Buff to Ravenwing units like the Dark Talon, Nephilem Jetfighter, or Land Speeder Vengeance, as their POWERFUL Heavy Weapons would actually become even MORE accurate. Curiously, this would also mean that Assault Type weapons suffer the biggest penalty of all Weapon Types after advancing ad using this stratagem. Something which seem counter to the normal function of Assault Type Weapons. It would also mean this Stratagem is a significant buff to both Ravenwing Flyers and REGULAR Ravenwing Bikes (Not Black Knights). So, thank you to everyone responding to my questions, and please keep your answers coming.

Thats probably true, i didn't take the points cost into account, but 60 potential damage from one squad is just terrifying.

Anyways, the weapon still remains an assault weapon so its logical that you receive the penalty after advancing, its the same as with moving heavy weapons.

I think the strategem means you can use all the weapons as usual with all the modifiers applied in accordance with the weapon type

Flyers dont really profit that much. They still get -1 on their heavy weapons, and frankly, I've never assaulted/advanced with any of my flyers even once.

I still think its strange that this strategem is "better" for normal bikers than black-knight-elite-guys. But thats how the rules are ;-)

BTW: Landspeeders also dont really get a buff from this. Although i must admit, advancing and still firing (at -1) will be situational, but can win you games.

1 - I'd say all weapon types can fire as if they'd moved normally. So no -1 for Assault, -1 for Heavy. It's essentially counting it as regular movement by allowing Shooting and Charging so I see no reason why Assault would suffer a penalty when other restrictions have been lifted. It's counterintuitive to do so.

2 - -1 to hit after Falling Back isn't a general thing. It's usually 'can't shoot'. Flyers can shoot and don't suffer any -1 just for Falling Back (unless firing Heavy and the normal Heavy -1 if moving applies).

KnightOfCaliban wrote:

#1. Speed of the Raven (1CP): "Used when a RAVENWING unit has advanced this turn. That unit may still shoot and charge this turn."

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

KnightOfCaliban wrote:

#2. Intractable (2CP): "Used when a Dark Angels unit has fallen back. They can still shoot this turn."

As said, there is no general -1 to hit when moving. Heavy weapons yes, anything else no.

p5freak wrote:
It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

Just from a common sense point of view, what's the point of the stratagem then? You could shoot assault weapons anyway (ignoring the RaW sillyness). It says they can shoot even though they advanced, that removes the penalty (unable to shoot) from advancing.

p5freak wrote:

KnightOfCaliban wrote:

#1. Speed of the Raven (1CP): "Used when a RAVENWING unit has advanced this turn. That unit may still shoot and charge this turn."

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn..

It does. Advancing prevents shooting. This Stratagem allows shooting after advancing. Shooting is any weapon type unless specified otherwise.

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

That kinda limits it to be used on black knights and command bikes or standard bikes with meltas... what else is there with assault weapons?

Timur wrote:

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

That kinda limits it to be used on black knights and command bikes or standard bikes with meltas... what else is there with assault weapons?

He's not correct, don't worry. Assault weapons can already advance and shoot.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

KnightOfCaliban wrote:

#1. Speed of the Raven (1CP): "Used when a RAVENWING unit has advanced this turn. That unit may still shoot and charge this turn."

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn..

It does. Advancing prevents shooting. This Stratagem allows shooting after advancing. Shooting is any weapon type unless specified otherwise.

You can advance and shoot assault weapons. But you cannot advance, shoot assault weapons, and charge. The speed of the raven stratagem allows you to do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

p5freak wrote:
It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

Just from a common sense point of view, what's the point of the stratagem then? You could shoot assault weapons anyway (ignoring the RaW sillyness). It says they can shoot even though they advanced, that removes the penalty (unable to shoot) from advancing.

The point is to charge after advance, and shoot assault weapons. You cant charge after advancing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timur wrote:

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

That kinda limits it to be used on black knights and command bikes or standard bikes with meltas... what else is there with assault weapons?

There are a lot of assault weapons : Inceptors have assault bolters and plasma exterminators (no idea if DA can use them), flamers are assault, astartes grenade launcher, astartes shotgun, carbine bolter, deathwind launcher, flamestormfists, wrist grenade launcher, mastercrafted storm bolt rifle, plasma cutter, hellbasters have assault plasma guns.

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

KnightOfCaliban wrote:

#1. Speed of the Raven (1CP): "Used when a RAVENWING unit has advanced this turn. That unit may still shoot and charge this turn."

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn..

It does. Advancing prevents shooting. This Stratagem allows shooting after advancing. Shooting is any weapon type unless specified otherwise.

You can advance and shoot assault weapons. But you cannot advance, shoot assault weapons, and charge. The speed of the raven stratagem allows you to do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

p5freak wrote:
It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

Just from a common sense point of view, what's the point of the stratagem then? You could shoot assault weapons anyway (ignoring the RaW sillyness). It says they can shoot even though they advanced, that removes the penalty (unable to shoot) from advancing.

The point is to charge after advance, and shoot assault weapons. You cant charge after advancing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Timur wrote:

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

That kinda limits it to be used on black knights and command bikes or standard bikes with meltas... what else is there with assault weapons?

There are a lot of assault weapons : Inceptors have assault bolters and plasma exterminators (no idea if DA can use them), flamers are assault, astartes grenade launcher, astartes shotgun, carbine bolter, deathwind launcher, flamestormfists, wrist grenade launcher, mastercrafted storm bolt rifle, plasma cutter, hellbasters have assault plasma guns.

Your interpretation is still wrong. The Stratagem allows you to shoot after Advancing. This means all weapons.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Your interpretation is still wrong. The Stratagem allows you to shoot after Advancing. This means all weapons.

There is no need for a stratagem to shoot after advancing, you can already do that. What the stratagem allows you to do is to charge, after advancing and shooting. Which is huge. Bikes move 14" + 6" when they advance, and roll 2D6 for the charge. Thats a threat range of 27".

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Your interpretation is still wrong. The Stratagem allows you to shoot after Advancing. This means all weapons.

There is no need for a stratagem to shoot after advancing, you can already do that. What the stratagem allows you to do is to charge, after advancing and shooting. Which is huge. Bikes move 14" + 6" when they advance, and roll 2D6 for the charge. Thats a threat range of 27".

You're wrong.

It allows you to shoot after Advancing, all weapon types, and Charge. Your view of it is too narrow. It's no doubt in part designed to fix the fact that Bikes can't fire their Bolters and Attack Bikes cannot shoot at all if they Advance. Now for the cost of a few CPs they can get their Jink AND shoot/charge.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

You're wrong.

It allows you to shoot after Advancing, all weapon types, and Charge. Your view of it is too narrow. It's no doubt in part designed to fix the fact that Bikes can't fire their Bolters and Attack Bikes cannot shoot at all if they Advance. Now for the cost of a few CPs they can get their Jink AND shoot/charge.

No, you are wrong. My view isnt too narrow, yours is too wide. RAW doesnt give you permission to shoot heavy weapons after advancing. Shooting restrictions from the rules still apply.

p5freak wrote:

Timur wrote:

It doesnt say the unit can shoot any kind of weapon type. The unit advanced, you can only fire assault weapons, and charge this turn.

That kinda limits it to be used on black knights and command bikes or standard bikes with meltas... what else is there with assault weapons?

There are a lot of assault weapons : Inceptors have assault bolters and plasma exterminators (no idea if DA can use them), flamers are assault, astartes grenade launcher, astartes shotgun, carbine bolter, deathwind launcher, flamestormfists, wrist grenade launcher, mastercrafted storm bolt rifle, plasma cutter, hellbasters have assault plasma guns.

Yes, but the stragem is for ravenwing only, in ravenwing the only units that may take assault weapons are the bikes. I think if GW wanted to limit usage of this stratagem only to bikes than they would do it like with the termies sratagem by saying any "ravenwing bike unit", or something more specific regarding which weapons may be used. Since it is not limited to bikes only, means their intent was that dark talons and landspeeders would also be able to take advantage of this strategem which means it allows you to fire all weapons

Otherwise whats the point of using this strat on a landspeeder vengeance to shoot after advancing if doesn't even have an assault weapon and cant be used to charge since there is no point in that?Surely it must allow to shoot all weapons if its a ravenwing wide stratagem

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

You're wrong.

It allows you to shoot after Advancing, all weapon types, and Charge. Your view of it is too narrow. It's no doubt in part designed to fix the fact that Bikes can't fire their Bolters and Attack Bikes cannot shoot at all if they Advance. Now for the cost of a few CPs they can get their Jink AND shoot/charge.

No, you are wrong. My view isnt too narrow, yours is too wide. RAW doesnt give you permission to shoot heavy weapons after advancing. Shooting restrictions from the rules still apply.

...unless specifically overridden by this Stratagem. Your take is incorrect.

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

You're wrong.

It allows you to shoot after Advancing, all weapon types, and Charge. Your view of it is too narrow. It's no doubt in part designed to fix the fact that Bikes can't fire their Bolters and Attack Bikes cannot shoot at all if they Advance. Now for the cost of a few CPs they can get their Jink AND shoot/charge.

No, you are wrong. My view isnt too narrow, yours is too wide. RAW doesnt give you permission to shoot heavy weapons after advancing. Shooting restrictions from the rules still apply.

That restriction is removed by the stratagem.

Please cite the passage from the stratagem where it lifts the restriction of firing heavy weapons when advancing.

p5freak wrote:
Please cite the passage from the stratagem where it lifts the restriction of firing heavy weapons when advancing.

The part where it says you can shoot. If it was meant to be more restrictive or specific, it needs to say so. As is, it tells you a unit can shoot after advancing.

"I'm going to use this stratagem and fire my rapid fire weapons."

"But you advanced!"

"This stratagem says I can shoot after doing so." Your argument ends there.

Your argument is that shooting after advancing is restricted in the core rules. This overrides that.

Your argument is that assault weapons can already be shot after advancing. That has nothing to do with this rule that gives a blanket permission to shoot after advancing when used. In the same way that Ultramarines chapter tactic has nothing to do with the other stratagem that allows shooting after falling back. They're separate rules and are treated as such.

You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is not to enable you to fire all weapons. The point is that it allows you to charge after advancing.

p5freak wrote:
You are misunderstanding the stratagem, the point is not to enable you to fire all weapons. The point is that it allows you to charge after advancing.

Sorry dude, the only one misunderstanding it is you. Probably worth bowing to consensus...