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I know DA books just hit people’s hands so not many games been played but out of these two who got the better chapter tactics and stratagems? Who won in physic powers department?

These are the two marine army’s I’m debating playing this edition so wanted to get public opinion. My gut tells me ultramarine chapter tactics Is more useful than DA grim resolve. But I’ve played neither in 8th. Thanks!

Personally I think both books are solid. Marines have Bobby G, making Ultramarines one of the best competitive builds. But if the rumors are true, Dark Angels will get the Lion next summer. Neither book is as bad as the naysayers claim. Both have some very competitive stuff, and some other stuff that is useless garbage. Honestly I don't think either one is clearly better than the other, so play the one that interests you more. I know it doesn't help you decide, but that's my 2 cents.

What tools does the Vanilla codex have that you'll miss in the Dark Angels one?

Also having Rowboat doesn't make it a good codex. Having Flyrants and Mawlocs certainly didn't make the 6th edition Tyranid codex great, did it?

Free fall back and shoot. Only thing that comes to mind but it might not be as useful as it sounds

DA, no girlyman... everything is better without girlyman. Even the awful Gray knights are better, because no girlyman.

clownshoes wrote:
DA, no girlyman... everything is better without girlyman. Even the awful Gray knights are better, because no girlyman.

you may not like the character but Gulliman but he's an incrediably effective character on the board

Robert gillydude is the best marine codex.

Once again you guys are basing that on one model.

It's like everyone ignores the Tyranid comparison I made.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again you guys are basing that on one model.

It's like everyone ignores the Tyranid comparison I made.

It's like you're expecting reasoned discussion on Dakka.

As someone who refuses to use pappa smurf I'm not sure there is much difference in the codex apart from raven wing. But even I have to admit deathwing is fu ked and unplayable for a lot of DA players and I don't even play deathwing!

Grimlineman wrote:
I know DA books just hit people’s hands so not many games been played but out of these two who got the better chapter tactics and stratagems? Who won in physic powers department?

I figured the Rowboat hate would surface that’s why I Specifically asked about stratagems, chapter tactics and psychic powers.......

They're both strong, even without guilliman.

DA are better for 1 reason. Plasma damage stratagem. Having a usable offensive stratagem is something that space marines don't have - except for orbital but 3 CP to maybe do a few mortal wounds is extremely overpriced. DA are getting Lion El Johnson soon anyways - hell be better than Guilliman.

I think from a pure tools and materials stand point DA came out on top. Obviously this isn't factoring in Roboute - he is a very effective force multiplier for vanilla SM. I think between the plasma boosting stratagems, the army wide 'captain' trait, and the useful aura buffs from units like Dark Shrouds and the new Speeder Lt. the DA have a more complete available package.

They are pretty close honestly

1.) Chapter tactics- Ravenguard is probably the best tactic overall. I put grim resolve on a level with salamanders and ultra marines, in that they all benefit from building an army with the tactic in mind.

2.) Stratagems- probably slight edge to DA because SM have chapter specific stratagems so, there will always be some you can't use. Weapons of the dark age is very good but so is strike from the shadows.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again you guys are basing that on one model.

It's like everyone ignores the Tyranid comparison I made.

It just makes internal balance poor and army one dimensional. But in terms of strength of codex Codex: Guillimann is better than codex: dark angels.

Of course question should be who got better codex in WHAT CONTEXT. In terms of tournaments codex: Guillimann. If you want to play without Guillimann then Dark Angels. Of course that doesn't make you particularly good for tournaments.

Of course Guillimann+dark angels+IG might be even better combo. Neither codex is really to be used alone anyway.

tneva82 wrote:
Of course Guillimann+dark angels+IG might be even better combo. Neither codex is really to be used alone anyway.

Not intended to be directed at you personally but I hate that sentiment. If they weren't meant to be played by themselves then why aren't they made into 1 book that is meant to be played by itself (or a 2 volume set like the index)?

It's obvious that if you print separate army books they are meant to be separate armies. Granted GW doesn't seem to follow this practice IRL but that's how it should be in design theory.

DA is better outside Robby G, as many have said. They are simply better in almost every way, ravenwing is amazing and improves on the best part of many space marine lists (flyers not bikers). Even deathwing is better than vanilla terminators, still bad but less bad.

They are separate codex and separate armies, all can put a perfectly viable list on the table without resorting to any other source.

Sure, if i'm aiming to get even that last 1% advantage over my opponent, then being able to choose from other sources will sometimes give me an edge, but for 99,9% of games (including most tornaument games) each codex has it's own legs.

I don't agree that these books aren't supposed to be used alone. Maybe they're stronger using supporting detachments but IG, DA, and SM can all be used independent of one another and function fine.

Everyone keeps talking about The Lion coming back in the summer... that might happen, but I bet Sanguinuis comes back first. "HE IS RISEN!"

I mean, it would be classic, straight out of western mythology: God-like being thought dead, coming back to life to save humanity!

Currently, the Blood Angels and Dark Angels have one huge draw back over the Vanilla Space Marine codex: Bobby G, The Pimp Daddy of the Ultra Marines (He puts the U in the Ultra!), Girlyman, Rowboat, Big Daddy Papa Smurf, Roboute Guiliman. Bobby G is awesome by himself, and he has about the same level of buffs as most Chapter Masters do for all Chapters. He really goes to 10,000 when you run him with his Chapter of Ultra Marines. Yes, it comes down to one model, and that one model makes Ultra Marines way better then either Dark Angels or Blood Angels. Take away Bobby G, and I dunno. We'll have to see how they all do on the table top.

I'm interested in what GW does with the Space Wolves. They are the most divergent Space Marine army, with the most unique units, wargear, and vehicles. Will GW try and fit them into the Space Marine mold, or place them in a different category?

Bobby G makes UM inflexible and slow. Asscannons have been nerfed. I'll take my chances with BA stratagems that can make the opponent very uncomfortable in the movement phase.

If they leave me a 3" strip 10" away from their stuff, it's bad news.

Martel732 wrote:
Bobby G makes UM inflexible and slow. Asscannons have been nerfed. I'll take my chances with BA stratagems that can make the opponent very uncomfortable in the movement phase.

If they leave me a 3" strip 10" away from their stuff, it's bad news.

Blood angels still don't have anything good for cutting through screening units to get to the juicy bits, the single biggest issue of the elite deepstrike assault armies. Not to mention the horde melee armies that will likely roll right over them. Their chapter tactic might be good enough to tilt that in their favor but I'm very skeptical given how easily orcs can out assault every flavor of vanilla marine I've seen so far. Or nids, post codex.

Competitively I'm certain Vanilla is stronger, purely thanks to the two RGs: Bobby G and Raven Guard.

Dark Angels codex is decent thought. It's a bit rough if you want to go pure Deathwing, but gunline armies based around plasma, Ravenwing armies, or mixed forces which might include some Deathwing all look pretty solid.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again you guys are basing that on one model.

It's like everyone ignores the Tyranid comparison I made.

Guillimane makes his entire army better. Unlike 7th nids, where a handful of models did work, while the rest watched, Roboute turns bread and butter units into killers. Yes, it's not lightning quick, but it's not a static gunline either with full re-rolls.

If you run ultras, there is really no reason not to take him, and while that opens up the tangent about bad codex design, solid units like intercessors and agressors become really good, while good units like hellblasters become bonkers under him.

Space marines do suffer from a lot of overlap and redundancy though.

But there are codex chapters which are not Ultramarines (as much as GW would want us to forget this fact), so Guilliman making the army great matters little to the players of those chapters.

 Crimson wrote:
But there are codex chapters which are not Ultramarines (as much as GW would want us to forget this fact), so Guilliman making the army great matters little to the players of those chapters.

It's not GW, but the players that can't see past Guilliman. The "If it's not OP, it's junk" crowd.

SilverAlien wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bobby G makes UM inflexible and slow. Asscannons have been nerfed. I'll take my chances with BA stratagems that can make the opponent very uncomfortable in the movement phase.

If they leave me a 3" strip 10" away from their stuff, it's bad news.

Blood angels still don't have anything good for cutting through screening units to get to the juicy bits, the single biggest issue of the elite deepstrike assault armies. Not to mention the horde melee armies that will likely roll right over them. Their chapter tactic might be good enough to tilt that in their favor but I'm very skeptical given how easily orcs can out assault every flavor of vanilla marine I've seen so far. Or nids, post codex.

What!? Have you ever heard about DC with boltguns and chainswords? Or Scout Bikers? Screens are not a problem for BA. BA will also destroy most horde melee armies, since they will always fight first. With Lemartes and the strartagem DC has a ~95% to get into close combat after deep striking. Vanilla Marines are not good in melee. BA on the other hand are simply fantastic. Seriously, DC is one of the best melee units in the game.

No idea why people are still complaining about Ultra Marines with Guilliman. When was the last time that this army won a GT? The meta has changed dramatically during the last couple of months. I wouldn't even consider it to be a top 10 list.

 Polonius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again you guys are basing that on one model.

It's like everyone ignores the Tyranid comparison I made.

Guillimane makes his entire army better. Unlike 7th nids, where a handful of models did work, while the rest watched, Roboute turns bread and butter units into killers. Yes, it's not lightning quick, but it's not a static gunline either with full re-rolls.

If you run ultras, there is really no reason not to take him, and while that opens up the tangent about bad codex design, solid units like intercessors and agressors become really good, while good units like hellblasters become bonkers under him.

Space marines do suffer from a lot of overlap and redundancy though.

Which means a crutch unit. Rowboat is a crutch unit. And tournament results show less toppings for a reason: people learned to counter him.

Same thing with the 6th edition Tyranids. Mawlocs and Flyrants are crutch units, and they topped many a time because of it. How many people would say it was a good codex though? The answer is nobody.

Scallywag wrote:

No idea why people are still complaining about Ultra Marines with Guilliman. When was the last time that this army won a GT? The meta has changed dramatically during the last couple of months. I wouldn't even consider it to be a top 10 list.

Right. And non-ultra vanilla marines are even worse...

It is a complaint based on internal balance, not on external.