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Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






Is it just me that think everyone or does it seem like evey game company is changing scale to try to sell more models..??

GW started with AoS and making giant figures with Chaos and Sigmarites
Followed by the new Marines in 40k..

Now Fantasy Flight is releasing Star Wars legion with larger models compared to Imperial Assault

Even the Wiz Kids Dungeons and Dragons figures seem to be a smaller scale than they were in the past.

Don't care for it... and would rather keep to a certain scale, I like to have variety in my models and would keep buying if they look good.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Eh, just seems like casting out a bigger fishing net to me. More options and variation in models the more appeal you have to different groups.

Like the AoS example, first a net thrown for people liking big, easier to paint models then later Fyreslayers and Sylvaneth thrown in for more regular sized models that are a tad more difficult with the details but offer a rewarding experience on finishing them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 04:41:33


 
   
Made in us
Slicing Orb of Xandros






SoCal, USA!

I am still mad that plastic IG don't match scale with the metals.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





St. Louis, MO

Be glad you don't play Infinity. Worst consistency in model scaling I've seen.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Wargames are starting to involve fewer models. This means the models you do sell need to feel like higher value, and that means a bigger scale.

When 40k and other games first came on the scene people were bringing hundreds of little metal miniatures to their historical games and expected the same from their sci fi games.

Then Warmahcine hit the scene. You could get going with just a couple boxes and maybe a dozen models. You could get running quickly, didn't have as much cruft to move around the board, and could invest more money in alternate models and alternate lists. More and more games started following that pattern and GW released its own wave of skirmish scale games. Now Fantasy has become AOS (which is skirmish scale) and 40k is now a skirmish ruleset that can be scaled to larger levels.

Primaris are a good example. You can build a list with as few as 5 units, thanks to the high point cost and value of the new stuff. People want to feel like those 5 units have high value, so making them bigger makes sense. The fact that the cost of making bigger models is going down is also pushing it in that direction.

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...but they were Donuts of Darkness...
 
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




 ChargerIIC wrote:
Wargames are starting to involve fewer models. This means the models you do sell need to feel like higher value, and that means a bigger scale.

When 40k and other games first came on the scene people were bringing hundreds of little metal miniatures to their historical games and expected the same from their sci fi games.

Then Warmahcine hit the scene. You could get going with just a couple boxes and maybe a dozen models. You could get running quickly, didn't have as much cruft to move around the board, and could invest more money in alternate models and alternate lists. More and more games started following that pattern and GW released its own wave of skirmish scale games. Now Fantasy has become AOS (which is skirmish scale) and 40k is now a skirmish ruleset that can be scaled to larger levels.

Primaris are a good example. You can build a list with as few as 5 units, thanks to the high point cost and value of the new stuff. People want to feel like those 5 units have high value, so making them bigger makes sense. The fact that the cost of making bigger models is going down is also pushing it in that direction.


You're really just explaining the difference between skirmish scale games and bigger wargames.

Skirmish has always been more accessible - even thirty years ago.

Miniature scale creep is a different topic altogether. Within an established gaming system I view it as a naked cash grab.

I'm not a fan of this new focus on 32mm in general. Especially in games with lots of units. I bought into the Song of Ice and Fire Kickstarter. The more I thought about the 32mm scale the more it bugged me. A lot of my stuff is 28mm - minis I could in some cases have proxied into this game. It also seems to be a card/keyword driven skirmish system hidden behind a mass battle game - but that's a different discussion. I'll be divesting myself of it as soon as it arrives. Scale became too much of an issue.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:38:52


 
   
Made in us
Slicing Orb of Xandros






SoCal, USA!

I'm OK with 32mm, because the models are more realistic and better-detailed. When Warmachine first came out, the taller human models were prettier that what GW was producing.

Lately, though, I'm really liking the look of the new 35mm scale "classical" minis, a la Kingdom Death / Arena Rex. I'm assuming Malifaux is also 35mm.

But different games using different scales isn't a big deal. I'm not bothered that BattleLore is a smaller scale than Warhammer.

My only real issue is scale change within a game.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm OK with 32mm, because the models are more realistic and better-detailed. When Warmachine first came out, the taller human models were prettier that what GW was producing.

Lately, though, I'm really liking the look of the new 35mm scale "classical" minis, a la Kingdom Death / Arena Rex. I'm assuming Malifaux is also 35mm.

But different games using different scales isn't a big deal. I'm not bothered that BattleLore is a smaller scale than Warhammer.

My only real issue is scale change within a game.


Each scale has it's place for sure. I can see the value of large scale models for painters. 54mm is a niche thing in historical gaming for just this reason.

Personally I like collecting a certain scale within each scale band. Namely 6mm, 15mm and 28mm. This allows me to interchange miniatures between many game systems. 32mm for me adds nothing new game wise - it's still basically a 28mm scale game system. It just gives me minis I can't use with my main collection.

I'd certainly agree that within an established game it is distasteful to say the least.
   
Made in us
Slicing Orb of Xandros






SoCal, USA!

For where games are going now, interchange is becoming a dated concept. I mean, you wouldn't use GW minis for Infinity or vice-versa, would you?

OTOH, I could see some Arena Rex and Kingdom Death crossover. That might be interesting.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For where games are going now, interchange is becoming a dated concept. I mean, you wouldn't use GW minis for Infinity or vice-versa, would you?

OTOH, I could see some Arena Rex and Kingdom Death crossover. That might be interesting.


Unwillingness to proxy is all just a hangup in the mind of the gamer that refuses to use it as a resource. 40k and Infinity are perfectly interchangeable if you want them to be.

I stopped playing 40k after 2nd edition. I had an enormous collection of Imperial and my brother had the same in Chaos. I'd say over half the infantry and tanks were non-GW. It didn't take from our enjoyment - it boosted it greatly.

Slowly for whatever reason proxying became a bad thing. Frankly I don't think the change did the gamer many favours in the long run.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Genoside07 wrote:
Is it just me that think everyone or does it seem like evey game company is changing scale to try to sell more models..??

GW started with AoS and making giant figures with Chaos and Sigmarites
Followed by the new Marines in 40k..

Now Fantasy Flight is releasing Star Wars legion with larger models compared to Imperial Assault

Even the Wiz Kids Dungeons and Dragons figures seem to be a smaller scale than they were in the past.

Don't care for it... and would rather keep to a certain scale, I like to have variety in my models and would keep buying if they look good.


well scale changes all the time.

and im fine with it for now.

older 40k models look goofy af

even the current normal sm line looks goofy in their pooping pants pose

primarus look fantastic in scale proportions and pose.

the new munda models too.

id be stoked if they redid the IG line and several other lines to actually be properly scaled instead of the garbage heroic scale of yor.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Slicing Orb of Xandros






SoCal, USA!

niall78 wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For where games are going now, interchange is becoming a dated concept. I mean, you wouldn't use GW minis for Infinity or vice-versa, would you?

OTOH, I could see some Arena Rex and Kingdom Death crossover. That might be interesting.


Unwillingness to proxy is all just a hangup in the mind of the gamer that refuses to use it as a resource.


More like a preference for a consistent visual "look" to the game for the sake of immersion.

Otherwise, you might as well just use green vs tan army men and call it a day.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in ie
Been Around the Block




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
niall78 wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For where games are going now, interchange is becoming a dated concept. I mean, you wouldn't use GW minis for Infinity or vice-versa, would you?

OTOH, I could see some Arena Rex and Kingdom Death crossover. That might be interesting.


Unwillingness to proxy is all just a hangup in the mind of the gamer that refuses to use it as a resource.


More like a preference for a consistent visual "look" to the game for the sake of immersion.

Otherwise, you might as well just use green vs tan army men and call it a day.


Nothing is better than beautiful painted armies on a well dressed board. Proxying can easily maintain a fairly constant visual look with a lot of wargaming systems, scales, eras and settings. Granted it's harder to manage successful visually with games like 40k. But then again we are already maintaining a massive amount of imagination 'seeing' our miniatures fighting wars on a 6x4 - proxying surely isn't a bridge too much further down that road.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Welcome, Delicious Friend






Glasgow, Scotland

Meanwhile the Red Star Chechen range goes from 25mm to 30mm in how large the soldiers are. :(

In GW's case they all look 30mm-ish to me. The proportions just range from crap to diabolic. The new ones have lengthened out the limbs a bit to match the size of the heads and extremities though (the guns remain ridiculously oversized, even with the aesthetic, not to mention them being larger doesn't help with the massive head/ shoulder width syndrome).

I'd say that manufacturer's are erring closer to human proportions, which is leading to the scales to change a bit. Partly I suspect due to better manufacturing, and now feeling able to moving away from the aforementioned god-awful "heroic scale". Still, plenty of companies haven't changed what their doing either, obviously more than those that have.

There's all the intricacies of business as well. I.e. in the case of the Star Wars line the potential that changing the scale means collectors having to re-buy all their forces instead of re-using existing figures. That or that particular company's creative vision / whatever on what size the figures should be.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/19 01:30:11


 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Be glad you don't play Infinity. Worst consistency in model scaling I've seen.


Malifaux is worse. Some of it is unintentional and some isn't. Like, basically every Gremlin starter crew is a different scale. This is a faction that's meant to be made up of diminutive Goblin sized miniatures. Bayou Gremlins look like Children next to 'Young' Lacroic, actual child Gremlins, that are bigger than humans. The Brewmaster box overall is just bigger than usual for Gremlins. One new model, Sparks, is bigger than some humans but is meant to be small.

Some is actually intentional. When they traditionally sculpted models, they had a habit of making crouching models bigger than they should be. They've carried that over as a joke, so a box of 3 models, with 1 crouching, might have that crouching model be enormous. Samurai are a good example.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






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 -Loki- wrote:
 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Be glad you don't play Infinity. Worst consistency in model scaling I've seen.


Malifaux is worse....


Relic Knights... even worse.



Mezmaron

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/19 03:50:46


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Made in us
Slicing Orb of Xandros






SoCal, USA!

No, 40k hands down. Compare a RTB-01 with a Primaris Marine.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






That's exactly what I am talking about... Someone's job should be watching out for that ...

Recently bought Tomb of Annihilation box set for a easy way to add to my D&D miniatures for cheap.
But the scale is all wonky.. The Girallon is half the size of the old one and the other miniatures are way off scale.
Wiz Kids do a number of lines of miniatures you would think a consistence scale would be a common goal, clearly it is not.

I really don't mind when GW made the Greater Deamons gigantic and goblins super small because it matched up with the background.
But scale is important and no one wants figures of a same unit type that has no coherent size.

The new eshers do look nice.. just wished they matched up with the old in scale...Same with Star Wars legion when it comes out..
will hate that I will now have 3 scales of Star wars figures... WotC, imperial assault and legion.. each a little different..



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/19 04:43:08


 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, 40k hands down. Compare a RTB-01 with a Primaris Marine.


GW's was a gradual change over years, but you could be generally confident anything released around the same time would be the same scale (vehicles excluded, which have always been smaller than they should be). It's worse when scales shift on models released in the same timeframe and even within the same box.
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, 40k hands down. Compare a RTB-01 with a Primaris Marine.


Not even close. That's what? 30 years or so. And the change is both smaller than companies like Corvus Belli do in a year or two and aren't even supposed to be literally the same model as with things like this.


   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Welcome, Delicious Friend






Glasgow, Scotland

Are the GW and Infinity examples here valid though? That Infinity soldier looks like he's been re-designed to be wearing power armour, rather than suddenly growing a few feet. The Primaris Marines are tall Space Marines, rather than a replacement for the existing ones?

I mean I get what you're saying, though the Relic Knights example seems to be stating the point of this thread better.

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






@SunnySideUp

I had no idea the disparity was that intense


 
   
Made in us
Slicing Orb of Xandros






SoCal, USA!

Sunny Side Up wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, 40k hands down. Compare a RTB-01 with a Primaris Marine.


Not even close. That's what? 30 years or so. And the change is both smaller than companies like Corvus Belli do in a year or two and aren't even supposed to be literally the same model as with things like this.

Spoiler:


It's disingenuous to compare a TAG with a soldier.

I might as well compare a Dread with a Termie.

-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's disingenuous to compare a TAG with a soldier.

I might as well compare a Dread with a Termie.


That's not a TAG. It's an Azra'il Heavy Infantry. Both the same unit.

It's not a great example because for the first model the sculptor got the size wrong and by the time they realised it was too late to go back and redo it, so they went with the smaller size. With the redesign they returned it to the size it was meant to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/19 20:10:57


 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






Beyond the Beltway

And CB adjusted the rules for it too. It has the same name, but the new Larger Azra'il is a different unit altogether.

 Genoside07 wrote:
That's exactly what I am talking about... Someone's job should be watching out for that ...

Recently bought Tomb of Annihilation box set for a easy way to add to my D&D miniatures for cheap.
But the scale is all wonky.. The Girallon is half the size of the old one and the other miniatures are way off scale.
Wiz Kids do a number of lines of miniatures you would think a consistence scale would be a common goal, clearly it is not.

the Temple of Elemental Evil Board Game minis are the same scale as the ToA minis. WizKids are apparently going for 25mm-28mm scale, whereas the older D&D minis were very much 28mm+ scale. The WizKids Pathfinder minis are the same scale as their D&D line. They look a bit odd next to the Reaper Pathfinder minis. <Shrug>


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Battlefront launched Team Yankee... in the same 15mm as they have always used when frankly they should have changed scale...

6mm would have been nice. Seems to be a trend to having games where the scale of the models v the scale of the rules just seems oh so wrong
   
Made in si
Steady Stonecleaver







Relic Knights wins this race i think, featuring everything from 90s GW heroic scale (with heads, hands and feet as large as a female torso on the extreme side) to Infinity 28mm truescale proportions, even within the same faction and race, and released simultaneously.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/19 22:42:41


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Slicing Orb of Xandros






SoCal, USA!

 -Loki- wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's disingenuous to compare a TAG with a soldier.


That's not a TAG. It's an Azra'il Heavy Infantry. Both the same unit.


Nope.

See?


Exact same ratio. TAG & soldier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 00:04:48


-- 9k Craftworld Tian-Bing Eldar
-- 7k Ragnarok 1st "Einherjar" Imperial Guard
-- 4k Knights Sovereign SM
-- 2k Pale Templars CSM
-- 2k Ordo Lucifer =I=
-- 1k Sisters SoB
-- 4k Solland's Ghosts WFB Dogs of War 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's disingenuous to compare a TAG with a soldier.


That's not a TAG. It's an Azra'il Heavy Infantry. Both the same unit.


Nope.

See?


Exact same ratio. TAG & soldier.


Scarface is bigger by about 1/3. I have both. You can see in the two comparison pictures - the old Azra'ils head comes to the middle of the chest of the new Azra'il, while Cordelia doesn't even come to the top of Scarfaces thigh

Also, it's a HI. It's right there in the profile.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 01:07:15


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Azra'il were originally sculpted too small(see the 2008 version).

They're a Silhouette 5 model(look up the Gecko, Kriza Borac, or Blackjack for other examples of S5)...so they're far from "soldier".
Scarface is Silhouette 7 I might add, which makes Cordelia either a giantess or the TAG far too small/hunched over.


Honestly, that's not even the worst offender that one can bring up. I won't get drawn into this further but there's a reason why I referred to Infinity's shift as "Scale Leap" whenever I could.

 Red Harvest wrote:
And CB adjusted the rules for it too. It has the same name, but the new Larger Azra'il is a different unit altogether.

One might argue that it's less "they adjusted the rules for it" but rather they created a new unit type to match it and other things they were looking at from the same general idea.

S5 Heavy Infantry with rules like "Heavyweight" are still pretty new.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/20 01:45:41


 
   
 
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