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How do you all think the Lion is going to react when/if he awakens and realizes what the Dark Angels have been doing while he was away? They've been focusing on a fairly self-centered goal for the past 10,000 or so years, and also managed to lose the main perpetrator of the crime they've been trying to clean up. They're also prone to make other loyalists who see them capturing the Fallen "spontaneously disappear," kind of like the Grey Knights when they get spotted.

If the Lion returns, it seems like the entire "feel" of the Dark Angels is going to be gone, because I can't really see him being on board with his entire chapter and its successors hunting the Fallen as their main priority. As much as I'd like to see the Lion come back, I don't want the Dark Angels to lose one of their most interesting features because of it. The fact that their not "clean cut" Space Marines is what adds a bit of spice to them, and from what we know about the Lion's personality, it wouldn't make much sense for him to be accepting of it.

So, what are all of you guys' opinions on the matter? Do you think the Lion is going to return? If he does, what would happen to the chapter?

Not sure - the Lion was a bit of dick in the HH novels so he might continue that.

The Dark Angels are currently less interesting to my mind - they are just obsssed to the detriment of their allies and the Imperium. Very few of the Astartes are clean cut - check out the Iron Hands they are extremely brutal, in fact the Salamanders and the Ultras are notable becuase they are less brutal and uncaring of mortals.

The Lion may just take control and use them to further his own aims as usual - he can order them to ignore the Fallen.

I Think the Lion would continue hunting the Traitors out of pride. Now I think he would deprioritize it as the primary and more make it a secondary objective but perhaps joining campaigns with a higher chance to encounter and destroy the fall, but ultimately the value to the imperium would come first. That is assuming he and Roboute can see past differences and work together or at least towards the same goals.

Actually, I think you answered the question in your initial post.

The Lion "Thanks for the coffee *hack* *hack*, yeah, get me a smoke, now, where the hell is Luther?"
Azrael "Well, it's complicated."
The Lion "More complicated than 'keep him locked in that cell until I get back'?"
Azrael "Well, he escaped."
The Lion "Well, you think you can hold my coffee? Because I need to assemble the Legi, err, Chapter, you say? Yeah, screw Roboute, assemble the Legion, we have work to do."

Yeah I don't think Fallen Hunting will be his top priority. He's got bigger aspirations than that. He'll want to be a major player in galactic politics, possibly even gunning for Bobby G's job.

That said, there's no reason he can't keep Azrael in charge of the day to day operations of the Dark Angels and continue to task him with tracking the Fallen. The Lion will want to be there for any big confrontation with Luther of course, but in the mean time it's probably something he'd just deligate down.

Just realized that there's a (very slight) possibility that I didn't touch on: the Dark Angels could just do what they do best and cover up the whole Fallen thing from the Lion, thinking he wouldn't approve and/or understand.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

The Lion "Well, you think you can hold my coffee? Because I need to assemble the Legi, err, Chapter, you say? Yeah, screw Roboute, assemble the Legion, we have work to do."

The Dark Angels only split the legion in name only anyway. That's why Azrael is Supreme Grand Master and the other chapter masters are Grand Master.

Stux wrote:
Yeah I don't think Fallen Hunting will be his top priority. He's got bigger aspirations than that. He'll want to be a major player in galactic politics, possibly even gunning for Bobby G's job.

That said, there's no reason he can't keep Azrael in charge of the day to day operations of the Dark Angels and continue to task him with tracking the Fallen. The Lion will want to be there for any big confrontation with Luther of course, but in the mean time it's probably something he'd just deligate down.

If galactic politics was his goal then he would probably prioritize the fallen pretty quickly. cant have something like that staining his campaign. i hope he and girlyman gets in each others grill. like a continuation on ultramar.

Will he come back as a demon primarch? That is the question.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The Dark Angels only split the legion in name only anyway. That's why Azrael is Supreme Grand Master and the other chapter masters are Grand Master.

Yet another reason I suspect if they bring him back his agenda will have little to do with politics and more to do with his own agenda and that of his "Chapter".

I think he will start by reuniting the dark angels as a legion force, guilliman doesn't have the authority to stop him (both sons of the emperor), as the dark angels are basically a legion in all but name I see him just dropping the pre tense, I could also see him re instating the old wings, they worked for him before so he would likely bring them back, I don't see any real conflict with guilliman other than the rivalry they had before, I would see guilliman making him the de facto warmaster so that free him up to do what he does best, empire building.

As for the dark angels themselves, the lion would not be happy but I think he would understand.

Technically Guilliman does have the authority. He's Lord Commander of the Imperium. Whether the Lion respects that's is another matter of course.

But there is precedent. All chapters were heavily pressurised in to accepting the initial Codex Astartes and many other loyalist primarchs still led their legions at that time. Some concessions were given to individual legions, but breaking down to chapters was seen as totally inflexible. Rogal Dorn was heavily against splitting his legion but even he eventually conceded.

I'm not sure exactly why Guilliman and his Codex plan carried so much weight post Heresy, perhaps someone can expand on that. But I get the impression that he simply had more clout with Terra than other Primarchs.

Stux wrote:
Technically Guilliman does have the authority. He's Lord Commander of the Imperium. Whether the Lion respects that's is another matter of course.

But there is precedent. All chapters were heavily pressurised in to accepting the initial Codex Astartes and many other loyalist primarchs still led their legions at that time. Some concessions were given to individual legions, but breaking down to chapters was seen as totally inflexible. Rogal Dorn was heavily against splitting his legion but even he eventually conceded.

I'm not sure exactly why Guilliman and his Codex plan carried so much weight post Heresy, perhaps someone can expand on that. But I get the impression that he simply had more clout with Terra than other Primarchs.

I've always suspected the legion split up was a compromise. as presuambly a lot of the high lords wanted the legiosn DISBANDED following the heresy

I think mainly it was the oft quoted reason. No one should wield that much power again. Split the legions up to prevent another full scale heresy. If one chapter goes rogue, it can be dealt with. If a legion goes rogue we have problems.

Stux wrote:
Technically Guilliman does have the authority. He's Lord Commander of the Imperium. Whether the Lion respects that's is another matter of course.

Lion wasn't interested in becoming Emperor. He was mostly interested in just running military side of things.

Guillimann handling politics, resources etc, Lion taking care of day to day military issues. Quite doable scenario that fits his character. Of course GW can decide to just ignore already defined character and rewrite him completely.

I’d honestly be fine if the Lion’s return fractured the Imperium and caused a civil war. At least that would be interesting.

I have a feeling he will be portrayed in a way where he has no guilt over *cough* that mishap at the hands of traitors which blew Caliban to smithereens. He will be pretty disappointed with the Legi....whoa Chapter and tell them to stop being whiney apologists.

He may have remained loyal, depends on your perspective, but this guy is a classic sociopath.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Actually, I think you answered the question in your initial post.

The Lion "Thanks for the coffee *hack* *hack*, yeah, get me a smoke, now, where the hell is Luther?"
Azrael "Well, it's complicated."
The Lion "More complicated than 'keep him locked in that cell until I get back'?"
Azrael "Well, he escaped."
The Lion "Well, you think you can hold my coffee? Because I need to assemble the Legi, err, Chapter, you say? Yeah, screw Roboute, assemble the Legion, we have work to do."

Your earned an Exalt for that, made my morning.

I think the Lion will totally understand what the DA did after he was gone. Once they explain to him the type of place that the Imperium became after the Heresy he'll understand. The DA couldn't admit what happened, they would have been labelled as traitors, all they could do is what they did; initially cover it up and then when they found out that the Fallen still existed try and clean them up as quickly and quietly as possible. The Lion is massively pragmatic, if anything he'll be proud of his sons and what they have kept under wraps for 10,000 years.

But he'll reform the Legion, I mean look at Guilliman, he *wrote* the damn codex restricting the Space Marines to chapter size and almost came to blows with his brothers forcing their chapters to agree. And then what does he do the moment he's back? Toss that gak out the window and make legions of Primaris. The Lion likely would not have agreed with splitting the legions up in the first place so he'll likely just assume it should be the way it was, tell Azreal to gather up the crew and start going to town on Chaos with a note to Guilliman to send more Primaris.

I also don't understand people who think that the Lion may turn against the Imperium. Horus was so sure that he couldn't turn the Lion that he made specific plans to ensure that he was off in the Eastern Fringe where he wouldn't be a problem until Horus could take Terra. The Lion is also the one that had the most reservations about Guilliman's Imperium Secondus during the Hersey. The Lion is as loyal if not more than Guilliman.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Actually, I think you answered the question in your initial post.

The Lion "Thanks for the coffee *hack* *hack*, yeah, get me a smoke, now, where the hell is Luther?"
Azrael "Well, it's complicated."
The Lion "More complicated than 'keep him locked in that cell until I get back'?"
Azrael "Well, he escaped."
The Lion "Well, you think you can hold my coffee? Because I need to assemble the Legi, err, Chapter, you say? Yeah, screw Roboute, assemble the Legion, we have work to do."

Your earned an Exalt for that, made my morning.

I think the Lion will totally understand what the DA did after he was gone. Once they explain to him the type of place that the Imperium became after the Heresy he'll understand. The DA couldn't admit what happened, they would have been labelled as traitors, all they could do is what they did; initially cover it up and then when they found out that the Fallen still existed try and clean them up as quickly and quietly as possible. The Lion is massively pragmatic, if anything he'll be proud of his sons and what they have kept under wraps for 10,000 years.

But he'll reform the Legion, I mean look at Guilliman, he *wrote* the damn codex restricting the Space Marines to chapter size and almost came to blows with his brothers forcing their chapters to agree. And then what does he do the moment he's back? Toss that gak out the window and make legions of Primaris. The Lion likely would not have agreed with splitting the legions up in the first place so he'll likely just assume it should be the way it was, tell Azreal to gather up the crew and start going to town on Chaos with a note to Guilliman to send more Primaris.

I also don't understand people who think that the Lion may turn against the Imperium. Horus was so sure that he couldn't turn the Lion that he made specific plans to ensure that he was off in the Eastern Fringe where he wouldn't be a problem until Horus could take Terra. The Lion is also the one that had the most reservations about Guilliman's Imperium Secondus during the Hersey. The Lion is as loyal if not more than Guilliman.

Incidently, Horus in a short story basically admits he could not take the Dark Angels on with his legion, the Lion would have him beat, same with the Ultramarines, so he sent the Angels away and ambushed the Ultras, think the short story was called the warmaster

The Lion would want to be made Warmaster of the Imperium probably. Guilliman can go sit behind a desk and fill out logistical forms, which incidentally would make both happy.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Actually, I think you answered the question in your initial post.

The Lion "Thanks for the coffee *hack* *hack*, yeah, get me a smoke, now, where the hell is Luther?"
Azrael "Well, it's complicated."
The Lion "More complicated than 'keep him locked in that cell until I get back'?"
Azrael "Well, he escaped."
The Lion "Well, you think you can hold my coffee? Because I need to assemble the Legi, err, Chapter, you say? Yeah, screw Roboute, assemble the Legion, we have work to do."

Wait, Luther escaped?

When did this happen?

I think the recent DA article on Warhammer Community is pretty interesting. It talked about the six Wings of the old Dark Angels Legion. We know a couple of them... Deathwing and Ravenwing. They also talk about the Ironwing (vehicles/Dreads), the Dreadwing (Destroyers - Dual Wield Pistol Guys + other particularly nasty weapons) and the Stormwing (Breacher squads for ship to ship actions).

The last is the Firewing. Nobody knows what the Firewing did, but it's mentioned that the Consecrators Successor Chapter all use old school gear and sure look like they ARE the Firewing. I could see the Lion coming back and saying "We've got work to do. Summon the Firewing." "Sure thing boss. I'll have Nakir bring his Consecrators back into the fold."

*Wakes up*

"How's my favorite imprisoned traitor?"

*Gets news about Luther*
*Gets news about Gulliman*

"Oh F--K this Sh-t"

*Goes back to Sleep*

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I have a feeling he will be portrayed in a way where he has no guilt over *cough* that mishap at the hands of traitors which blew Caliban to smithereens. He will be pretty disappointed with the Legi....whoa Chapter and tell them to stop being whiney apologists.

He may have remained loyal, depends on your perspective, but this guy is a classic sociopath.

Agreed and that would be a step forward (or back to older background )

Kind of hoping Fallen get expanded rules, so would be a shame if fluffwise they get exterminated.

Not to derail this topic because I find it fascinating, but what if the lion and the space wolf primarch came back at the same time and both wanted to go back to legion? Or if it became a 2 vs 1 vote for changes? This is an interesting time for 40k, the future is actually moving forward in some form.

Azuza001 wrote:
Not to derail this topic because I find it fascinating, but what if the lion and the space wolf primarch came back at the same time and both wanted to go back to legion? Or if it became a 2 vs 1 vote for changes? This is an interesting time for 40k, the future is actually moving forward in some form.

The Space Wolves pretty much are still the same setup as they've always been. They didn't split into Chapters.

Azuza001 wrote:
Not to derail this topic because I find it fascinating, but what if the lion and the space wolf primarch came back at the same time and both wanted to go back to legion? Or if it became a 2 vs 1 vote for changes? This is an interesting time for 40k, the future is actually moving forward in some form.

I think El'Johnson would actually prefer chapters. He came from a feral knight world in which different orders worked together and had their own traditions while still reporting to 'The Order'. It also fits into his secretive nature.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Kind of hoping Fallen get expanded rules, so would be a shame if fluffwise they get exterminated.

In the fluff there is a legion's worth of them now. That's a hell of a lot of Fallen. Hoping they get a chapter tactic or whatever chaos calls their equivalent.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
In the fluff there is a legion's worth of them now. That's a hell of a lot of Fallen. Hoping they get a chapter tactic or whatever chaos calls their equivalent.

I'd be pretty annoyed if The Fallen got a Legion book before the other Legions, they are an absurdly esoteric part of the 40k universe.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
In the fluff there is a legion's worth of them now. That's a hell of a lot of Fallen. Hoping they get a chapter tactic or whatever chaos calls their equivalent.

I'd be pretty annoyed if The Fallen got a Legion book before the other Legions, they are an absurdly esoteric part of the 40k universe.

I can't see them getting a whole book, but if there is a campaign book that introduces Lion likely Gathering Storm, I wouldn't be surprised if there were expended Fallen rules in that.

Lion had already split his legion into chapters that obeyed a centralized command before the codex was written. Only adjustment they needed after the codex was to make said command less noticeable on the outside. They still operate under the same structure the Lion laid out 10k years ago and I believe the only change that would occur on the Lion's return would be him reclaiming his command at the top.

What I'd find interesting would be if the Fallen turn out to be the actual loyalists and the current DA, although now loyal and not the same ones who rebelled, are busy trying to repress all evidence that they are descendants of traitors.

The Lion, himself, has always been described as loyal to Big E but as mentioned; something of an introverted sociopath as well. He appears to have absolute zero tolerance for insults or any undermining of his command. More the one Primarch has been impaled by his sword and even Horus got his oNE and only warning by the Lion after Horus took command of Logan and his troops without consulting the Lion. Despite being prideful to a fault and hard headed once a course of action is chosen his apparent loyalty to E Money didn't seem to have been diminished. I wonder how his reaction to meeting his 'father' would be now.