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Last week I finally caved.

I had to get the Band of Brothers starter - and I've gotta say, it does not disappoint.

Loving the rules, loving the models, overall an excellent miniatures game with a ton of value (especially when compared to 40k).

After struggling a bit to find a well balanced army for my Airborne, and my friend's Grenadiers - I wondered why anyone would take an MMG team (which at veteran costs 60+ points I believe) instead of just adding some LMGs to your infantry (cost 20 pts.).

MMG = 36" - 5 dice

LMG = 36" - 4 dice


It would seem that LMGs are not only cheaper than MMG teams, but also only 1 die difference in potential hits/damage.

So why would you take MMGs?

Any Bolt Action players here who like using MMG teams who'd mind telling me would be appreciated.

Thanks for reading

"We're paratroopers, Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded." -- Major Richard D. Winters 
   
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Sentient Void

IMO, the best way to take a MMG for a U.S. Platoon is mounted on a Jeep.

"Even with living metal I am checking for teeth in all the wrong places before dipping into one of those."
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Scotland

The MMG team are part of it's cost. The team for the LMG are an extra cost. You can find players who don't like either and consider getting 2 more riflemen a better deal than the LMG, favouring bodies over range.

I take my MMG because I follow a mostly historical platoon organisation and a MMG is an appropriate attachment to make up points.
   
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Huh, MMG on a jeep sounds fun, and I can see the historical value when creating an army with MMG teams too (it is a WWII wargame after all, and authenticity can be a big part of the game).

After looking through the rules more thoroughly, I realized that MMG teams aren't as adaptive and mobile as a unit of infantry (of course) - so I analyzed other factors that'd make the points worth it.

What I found was that If you can plan ahead a bit and put them at vital areas on the table, you can cover your advancing infantry well.

By giving your MMG team(s) an Ambush order you can cover your advancing infantry units from a bad draw.

When your opponent then tries to take advantage of your infantry being in a bad or exposed position, your MMG teams then get to have a field day mowing down anyone who comes into their range.

Seems a bit useful, to say the least

"We're paratroopers, Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded." -- Major Richard D. Winters 
   
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An LMG in a regular section costs 40 points; 2 men + weapon, the MMG is 3 men + weapon for 50 points so the costs are comparable at 10 points per shot fired. The MMG gets the extra shot over the LMG at the cost of maneuverability but I take an MMG team for area denial or to guard an objective or artillery/mortar team.

“Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does.
That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
– Eighth Captain, Khârn 
   
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Southampton, UK

Another consideration is that the MMG team gets its own order dice, while LMGs are activated as part of a squad.
   
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But, on the other hand, MMGs are more fragile. One sniper round will take out the entire MMG team and you lose that dice. If a sniper takes out the LMG, only one man dies and you still have the rest of the section to work with.

“Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does.
That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
– Eighth Captain, Khârn 
   
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I see them as filling different roles, despite the similar stats and cost.

The MMG is for back field area denial, sometimes moving up if there's a choice spot on the field. The range means they can offer invaluable cover fire for your squads and vehicles in front of them.

The LMG is a great option for the Germans, but remember that if you are using it at long range (24-36 inches) that means no one else in the squad is doing a thing. They've used their order to either fire or advance and probably would have been better off moving to a better position or going into ambush.

I take the LMG for squads whose job it is to protect the support units (MMGs, Mortars, etc..) but themselves are supporting the men and vehicles mixing it up in front. I wouldn't take an LMG in a squad meant to get up close with SMGs and Assault Rifles for instance.

Essentially the two options work well together to create overlapping support and suppression. I use them both.

All that said, if I had to pick one, the MMG would be the first to get kicked off my list. Without infantry units protecting them and offering cover, I find MMG teams are left vulnerable and don't last long.
   
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LMG in the US Army book are limited to Paratroopers and Rangers correct? Regular army gets only BAR if I'm correct.
   
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Sentient Void

I really like the Veteran Marine weapon choices. They can have x2 LMG and the NCO can also have one. However, the power center for Marine Vets is the ability to take x3 BAR.

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Yendor

I play Russians so take this with a grain of salt, but I have not found a good use for my own MMG team. For the points, it will almost always be outshone by a Mortar for putting pressure on the enemy, and as others have said, I'd rather spend extra points for an infantry squad which cannot be killed by a single sniper shot and can move and shoot to get a better line of fire or advance on an objective.

Since Bolt Action has LMGs and MMGs with the same effective range... Of course Russians are dirty and can take 2 LMG in a squad, similar to the Germans- albeit at two less dice than them. A single MMG team just doesn't put out a ton of shots for what you need it for. A cheap armored car is often a better purchase for a mobile MMG or duel LMG platform. Americans and others get Jeeps which are great for this.

Honestly, Bolt Action needs to rework its points a bit, especially in regard to infantry based machine guns which are a tad overpriced, and vehicle based machine guns which are a tad underpriced.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/29 16:12:06


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 Tokhuah wrote:
I really like the Veteran Marine weapon choices. They can have x2 LMG and the NCO can also have one. However, the power center for Marine Vets is the ability to take x3 BAR.


When playing the USA, I believe that BARs are better: way cheaper, no risk to get two men stuffed at once by sniper fire, fire on the move... LMGs in squads have little assets in my opinion.

However to be honest, MMG team as a support weapon and LMG fulfill 2 different roles in my opinion. MMG teams are mostly a deterant. I generally run them inexperienced with my Germans to simply force my oponnent to be careful and throw a few pins, defend an objective as said above, or cover my artillery. They're very cheap (35 points). LMGs on the other hand help you foster powerful infantry.

Well, it's true that as Germans you naturely get a bonus to your MMGs and LMGS that doens't disappoint over the course of a game, but the role is roughly the same within other factions in my opinion.

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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:


When playing the USA, I believe that BARs are better: way cheaper, no risk to get two men stuffed at once by sniper fire, fire on the move... LMGs in squads have little assets in my opinion.

However to be honest, MMG team as a support weapon and LMG fulfill 2 different roles in my opinion. MMG teams are mostly a deterant. I generally run them inexperienced with my Germans to simply force my oponnent to be careful and throw a few pins, defend an objective as said above, or cover my artillery. They're very cheap (35 points). LMGs on the other hand help you foster powerful infantry.

Well, it's true that as Germans you naturally get a bonus to your MMGs and LMGS that doens't disappoint over the course of a game, but the role is roughly the same within other factions in my opinion.


You don't lose the loader if your LMG gets sniped out of an Infantry Squad. It follows different rules than the independent team weapons. The loader just becomes a regular rifelman at that point. It still sucks losing your 20 point LMG to sniper fire, but its not quite as bad. I also agree that BAR are where its at for Americans- especially since it Gels so well with their shoot and scoot.

I'll have to try running an inexperienced MMG teams for my Soviets. I could even toss a gun shield on it for 5 points to make it slightly more durable to small arms fire. I have a MMG team from my starter army that I haven't painted or ever fielded- looking at it as a viable option its definitely more viable than those Anti Tank Rifle Teams I run occasionally for extra Order Dice. Those AT rife teams do nothing.

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 akaean wrote:
 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:


When playing the USA, I believe that BARs are better: way cheaper, no risk to get two men stuffed at once by sniper fire, fire on the move... LMGs in squads have little assets in my opinion.

However to be honest, MMG team as a support weapon and LMG fulfill 2 different roles in my opinion. MMG teams are mostly a deterant. I generally run them inexperienced with my Germans to simply force my oponnent to be careful and throw a few pins, defend an objective as said above, or cover my artillery. They're very cheap (35 points). LMGs on the other hand help you foster powerful infantry.

Well, it's true that as Germans you naturally get a bonus to your MMGs and LMGS that doens't disappoint over the course of a game, but the role is roughly the same within other factions in my opinion.


You don't lose the loader if your LMG gets sniped out of an Infantry Squad. It follows different rules than the independent team weapons. The loader just becomes a regular rifelman at that point. It still sucks losing your 20 point LMG to sniper fire, but its not quite as bad. I also agree that BAR are where its at for Americans- especially since it Gels so well with their shoot and scoot.

I'll have to try running an inexperienced MMG teams for my Soviets. I could even toss a gun shield on it for 5 points to make it slightly more durable to small arms fire. I have a MMG team from my starter army that I haven't painted or ever fielded- looking at it as a viable option its definitely more viable than those Anti Tank Rifle Teams I run occasionally for extra Order Dice. Those AT rife teams do nothing.


Gosh if you don't loose dem laoders I got stuffed a couple of times then!

You should give it a try yes, and definitly gear tehm with shield up. That's truly the only thing the german MMG lacks, because it's cheap and enhances squad survivability a great deal.

As for AT rifles, I recommend that you should put them either inexperienced so they get dirt cheap as well (21 pts) or leave them regular (30 pts) and use them as proxy snipers to lay pins here and there, especially on already weakened or pin laden units. I think they're a little useful that way but those rarely work wonders -glad I got a Panzerschreck -.

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As I list usually early war/Sea Lion stuff, MMGs are a natural, as the doctrines were still with a WW1 mindset.

Great for Ambushes, also grants an extra dice for your overall army.

I also take them in certain lists, like when I'm making a paratropper list or any other list that is with light troops and little supports. Else, playing usually I don`t take it, I`d rather take a sniper team for the same cost, or get a Bren carrier for a 20 pts extra.

As for the At rifles, I got a team, for early war funnies. while they usually suck (Ity's just a single shot after all) They do force my opponent to move his vehicules a bit different, as it is still a +2 shot, and can wound infantry on a 3+/2+
   
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Inquisitor Jex wrote:
As I list usually early war/Sea Lion stuff, MMGs are a natural, as the doctrines were still with a WW1 mindset.

Great for Ambushes, also grants an extra dice for your overall army.

I also take them in certain lists, like when I'm making a paratropper list or any other list that is with light troops and little supports. Else, playing usually I don`t take it, I`d rather take a sniper team for the same cost, or get a Bren carrier for a 20 pts extra.

As for the At rifles, I got a team, for early war funnies. while they usually suck (Ity's just a single shot after all) They do force my opponent to move his vehicules a bit different, as it is still a +2 shot, and can wound infantry on a 3+/2+


Let's be honest they DO perform better as low cost snipers...
Actually the Bren carrier can be an interesting way to bring in a MMG (or is the bren rated as LMG?). It is obviously far more durable since it's immune to small caliber arms. Soviet go komsolets!!! But I don't know if the germans have such vehicules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/14 13:34:48


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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
As I list usually early war/Sea Lion stuff, MMGs are a natural, as the doctrines were still with a WW1 mindset.

Great for Ambushes, also grants an extra dice for your overall army.

I also take them in certain lists, like when I'm making a paratropper list or any other list that is with light troops and little supports. Else, playing usually I don`t take it, I`d rather take a sniper team for the same cost, or get a Bren carrier for a 20 pts extra.

As for the At rifles, I got a team, for early war funnies. while they usually suck (Ity's just a single shot after all) They do force my opponent to move his vehicules a bit different, as it is still a +2 shot, and can wound infantry on a 3+/2+


Let's be honest they DO perform better as low cost snipers...
Actually the Bren carrier can be an interesting way to bring in a MMG (or is the bren rated as LMG?). It is obviously far more durable since it's immune to small caliber arms. Soviet go komsolets!!! But I don't know if the germans have such vehicules.


The Bren carrier is an LMG, but you can take an extra one which may make it a reasonable gunship.

Light vehicles as machine gun carriers work fine, but they also tend to be either soft-skinned (so one 6 ends your machine gun's party as opposed to the three hit points an MMG team enjoys) or more expensive (a Regular armoured carrier with an MMG is 20pts more than the team weapon), can't go Down, and sometimes eat a slot you'd probably be better-off taking a mobile anti-tank gun in.

I don't think light vehicles or squad-support LMGs are proper replacements for an MMG team; put the MMG team in cover and it can guard an approach as/more effectively and more cheaply than either, which is what it's supposed to be doing.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
As I list usually early war/Sea Lion stuff, MMGs are a natural, as the doctrines were still with a WW1 mindset.

Great for Ambushes, also grants an extra dice for your overall army.

I also take them in certain lists, like when I'm making a paratropper list or any other list that is with light troops and little supports. Else, playing usually I don`t take it, I`d rather take a sniper team for the same cost, or get a Bren carrier for a 20 pts extra.

As for the At rifles, I got a team, for early war funnies. while they usually suck (Ity's just a single shot after all) They do force my opponent to move his vehicules a bit different, as it is still a +2 shot, and can wound infantry on a 3+/2+


Let's be honest they DO perform better as low cost snipers...
Actually the Bren carrier can be an interesting way to bring in a MMG (or is the bren rated as LMG?). It is obviously far more durable since it's immune to small caliber arms. Soviet go komsolets!!! But I don't know if the germans have such vehicules.


The Bren carrier is an LMG, but you can take an extra one which may make it a reasonable gunship.

Light vehicles as machine gun carriers work fine, but they also tend to be either soft-skinned (so one 6 ends your machine gun's party as opposed to the three hit points an MMG team enjoys) or more expensive (a Regular armoured carrier with an MMG is 20pts more than the team weapon), can't go Down, and sometimes eat a slot you'd probably be better-off taking a mobile anti-tank gun in.

I don't think light vehicles or squad-support LMGs are proper replacements for an MMG team; put the MMG team in cover and it can guard an approach as/more effectively and more cheaply than either, which is what it's supposed to be doing.


Actually, as far as my Germans are concerned, you can use the halftrack as both transport and then MMG, it isn't soft skinned and packs a decent amount of dices.

The advantage you would get anyway is that those units enjoy greater mobility, which allows you to redeploy faster if needed. However the bren having only LMG and soft skinned might actrually not work that well, bu I reckon that half tracks can.

What's agreed anyway is that it's costy compared to a MMG team, and as I suggested above I mostly use them to bring in cheap disuasion firepower.

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The Bren carrier is an armoured car (7+), but open-topped so it can get pinned, just not blown to bit with mere rifle fire.

The second LMG is also a pintle-mounted, for what its' worth, and you can also replace the 'starter' Bren with a boys At rifle, for a +2 Pen value.

The Carrier also has the turn on the spot rule, so you recce move your full distance rather than half, but end movement showing your back.

BUT...you can also use it as a tow vehicule, costy yes, but that will add sme more firepower without sacrificing an armoured car spot.
   
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Inquisitor Jex wrote:
The Bren carrier is an armoured car (7+), but open-topped so it can get pinned, just not blown to bit with mere rifle fire.

The second LMG is also a pintle-mounted, for what its' worth, and you can also replace the 'starter' Bren with a boys At rifle, for a +2 Pen value.

The Carrier also has the turn on the spot rule, so you recce move your full distance rather than half, but end movement showing your back.

BUT...you can also use it as a tow vehicule, costy yes, but that will add sme more firepower without sacrificing an armoured car spot.


Actually I don't know the bren carrier's rules. The boy wouldn't be a great idea as you want it to deal many dice, not to go sniping things.
But our fuss about armoured light LMG carriers juste made me think of the panzer 1 being the tank of the day!

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Well, I see the Boys as a detriment for other cars, as the +2 is still decent to hurt most 6+/7+ vehicules

Pz1s and other double weapons are deadly, but only to infantry, 7+ vehicules just laught at it even 251s; just put an officer in it and pinning is a thing of the past.
   
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speaking of which i think that a little tweak could be made to improve mmg granting them bonus to pin. Loke maybe 2 pins instead of one to a unit hit by an mmg.

In our thread i don't think its important to take in account anti tank capabilities. After all, we're finding ersatz to the mmg which can't deal them the least scratch! What's more I would fear that a boy equipped bren wouldn't be that decent. They still need 5+ to potentially take out a light vehicule, that assumong he doesn't move to not miss his only shoot whereas he himskef cab get pinned (unless officer as your rightfully state) and is easy to destroy.

Btw this thread has to be one of the longest in the history of that part of the forum. Keep it flowing lads! lol

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I'm planning my first BA Army and this thread is a great help.

Also I wanted to say something to make it show up in my list of threads, thanks guys.

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One little house rule we’ve been playing around with is giving MMG infantry teams (not on vehicles), a special suppression rule. Pin as normal on a hit, but if at least one enemy model in an infantry unit is removed as a casualty an additional Pin is placed.
   
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torblind wrote:
I'm planning my first BA Army and this thread is a great help.

Also I wanted to say something to make it show up in my list of threads, thanks guys.


What army do you plan to play?

Whereas i love to houserule 40k, i prefer not to apply the same treatment to BA since it's already very balanced. But tht could be worth a try.


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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
torblind wrote:
I'm planning my first BA Army and this thread is a great help.

Also I wanted to say something to make it show up in my list of threads, thanks guys.


What army do you plan to play?

Whereas i love to houserule 40k, i prefer not to apply the same treatment to BA since it's already very balanced. But tht could be worth a try.



I have the american army starter box (1000pt), lots of infantry and a Sherman and an A3.

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What's in the sarter set already? I can't remember myself.

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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
What's in the sarter set already? I can't remember myself.


From what I'm reading,

1 Lt+man
4 squads of 12, with Sgt. SMG and a BAR
Medium Mortar
.50 HMG
Sherman
Halftrack

Decent lil' starter set, the fact they ignore the -1 penalty for moving and shooting also makes it pretty intresting- even more so with squads who can have LMGs!
   
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Inquisitor Jex wrote:
 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
What's in the sarter set already? I can't remember myself.


From what I'm reading,

1 Lt+man
4 squads of 12, with Sgt. SMG and a BAR
Medium Mortar
.50 HMG
Sherman
Halftrack

Decent lil' starter set, the fact they ignore the -1 penalty for moving and shooting also makes it pretty intresting- even more so with squads who can have LMGs!


Yep good stuff overall, you can always trust warlord games on that tbh. I'd simply build three full squads and snipers etc out of the 4th, or make it smg squad to go into the halftrack. Could be worth it buying a ranger conversion kit to gear up a flamtrhower as well.

Just be aware that as we stared earlier, only bars and rifles get the no -1 modifier for moving bonus.

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 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
What's in the sarter set already? I can't remember myself.


From what I'm reading,

1 Lt+man
4 squads of 12, with Sgt. SMG and a BAR
Medium Mortar
.50 HMG
Sherman
Halftrack

Decent lil' starter set, the fact they ignore the -1 penalty for moving and shooting also makes it pretty intresting- even more so with squads who can have LMGs!


Yep good stuff overall, you can always trust warlord games on that tbh. I'd simply build three full squads and snipers etc out of the 4th, or make it smg squad to go into the halftrack. Could be worth it buying a ranger conversion kit to gear up a flamtrhower as well.

Just be aware that as we stared earlier, only bars and rifles get the no -1 modifier for moving bonus.


Yes, I have since bought some extra infantry and weapons sprues when they have 3 for 2 types of deals.

My plan was to focus on BARs with the limitation to the -1modifier as you said.

What about extra vehicles? And recce vehciles? (I haven't played a game yet, so the game mechanics are not at the tip of my fingers)

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