Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1) You don't need to attach the Sorcerer, Astral Grimoire can be used on any infantry unit within 12".

2) Sequence of events :

--> 12" move
--> cast Force
--> explode the Rhino
--> Culexus cancels Force
--> shoot
--> charge.

3) Killing the Culexus is less important than taking away player agency. If he's not within 8-12", he's not really a factor. Three S5 shots within 18" isn't bringing much to the table, even at BS8.

4) If you have Summoning, you can just launch a conjured unit at him with the Grimoire.

Yoyoyo wrote:
1) You don't need to attach the Sorcerer, Astral Grimoire can be used on any infantry unit within 12".

2) Sequence of events :

--> 12" move
--> cast Force
--> explode the Rhino
--> Culexus cancels Force
--> shoot
--> charge.

3) Killing the Culexus is less important than taking away player agency. If he's not within 8-12", he's not really a factor. Three S5 shots within 18" isn't bringing much to the table, even at BS8.

4) If you have Summoning, you can just launch a conjured unit at him with the Grimoire.

His psychic abomination is measured from the hull of the vehicle, you generate WC on 6s... you gonna throw 6 dices at force?

Check the draft FAQ for Assassins.

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/13254069_1617411935246106_8036190078051138617_n.jpg

Q: Does the Culexus Assassin's Psychic Abomination special rule work whilst it is inside a Transport?

A: No.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Check the draft FAQ for Assassins.

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/13254069_1617411935246106_8036190078051138617_n.jpg

Q: Does the Culexus Assassin's Psychic Abomination special rule work whilst it is inside a Transport?

A: No.

Thats good to know. Ok given the perfect scenario that the rubrics gets the first jump on Culexus, they'll get re-roll hits and saves of 1 for a turn. But how much more can they do with re-rolling hits of 1s when they still need 6s to shoot and 5s in CC? Combining shooting and CC with re-roll 1s, I think I estimate 1.2 or 1.3W total on the assassin. Then on the SM players turn, he charges in with Kahn and a bunch of marines.

Dealing with culexis assassins is a fairly simple matter with allied daemons.
Even a small unit of screamers turbo boosting over him will kill him easily once he is in the open.

Thousand-Son-Sorcerero wrote:Hellfyre Missle Racks are S 8 and unless my memory fails me culexus is T 4 without Eternal Warrior, prescience on a squad and shooting at him should down him in 3 or 4 turns half that for 2 squads, or if your really feeling froggy having 2 squads of SOT with Heavy Warp Flamers hit him at the same time should do the trick. Flamers seem to be the best option since they are fairly cheap and can still shoot at him because considered BS 1 is not snap shots.

Prescienced hellfyres deal ~0.25 wounds a turn (assuming no cover save better than a 4+), The bolters do a relatively inconsequential ~0.3 wounds a turn since you're aiming to double him out. A heavy flamer does ~0.44 wounds a turn (including warpflame), and in combination with the bolters yields 0.63 wounds a turn for a roughly 4 turn requirement to kill him - effectively the entire game. That also discounts the FNP you'll almost certainyl give him if you're attacking with a heavy flamer. Ironically, this might be the one chance a warpflamer rubricae squad has to shine. A squad of 9 warpflamers will do 3 wounds (including warpflame wounds) in a single round. Not what I'd call points efficient at 363 points for 10 dudes, 9 flamers and a rhino, but they do get the job done.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?

3, with 30 points left for the Gimoure.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder.

Not going to work, remember the Culexus applies a -3 LD debuff to psykers within 12".

Damn, I thought I had it then. Completely forgot about that, thank you.

Yoyoyo wrote:3) Killing the Culexus is less important than taking away player agency. If he's not within 8-12", he's not really a factor. Three S5 shots within 18" isn't bringing much to the table, even at BS8.

The issue is that he can start 12-18" away due to infiltrating. Even if he can't charge, he can still cause a bunch of issues, not just gaining bonus dice to his shooting and being instant death against your psychers but also cancelling blessings that you might have been relying on.

Yoyoyo wrote:4) If you have Summoning, you can just launch a conjured unit at him with the Grimoire.

Chaos Legionnaire wrote:Dealing with culexis assassins is a fairly simple matter with allied daemons.
Even a small unit of screamers turbo boosting over him will kill him easily once he is in the open.

I suspect this might be the cheaper answer - rolling on maelific and looking for incursion. Most lists with daemons in it will almost assuredly have a unit of screamers in it anyway, but for lists like the full cabal, summoning might be the only answer short of a hoarde of flamer rubricae.

Changing subject. I really start considering adding a cult of destruction in my lists. This should be 1 Warpsmith and 3+1+1 obliterators. I believe it will be great to solve some of our anti-AV problems and it would add more to the super-durable infantry guys playstyle which I am fond of. Now I have two options on how to run them.

1. Thousand Sons. I would have to put a MoT on everybody (total cost of 515 pts). This would give me 4++ saves and Blessing of Tzeentch on everybody (mainly my big unit of 3+ the warpsmith). I could also give the Grimoire to the warpsmith and have a very fast multi-purpose unit.

2. Iron Warriors. I do not have to add marks. So I could get it for cheap(er) - 460 pts for the formation. I would only have 5++ and no Blessing, but I would get Tank Hunters which further improves their default role. Also it would be somehow more difficult to grimoire them. Finally, due to my OCD's, I would have to re-paint them to IW.

Sooooo, which route would be best in your opinion?

Being able to bring the astral grimoire into a non Ts aggressive army is pretty useful. So I've converted up a TS warpsmith. Still thinking about TS oblits.

IW oblits are good in a CAD.. tank hunter is great.. I think death guard won out for oblits , T5 and fnp and fearless.

The cult of destruction may be a great add to our forces, but it puts further strain on our already very limited point reserves.

Honestly, it almost seems like if you can't max out a formation, it's hardly worth fielding one. and at that point-why bother TS?

I just feel like if you are not going all-in on the psykers, you'll be better off playing another legion.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The cult of destruction may be a great add to our forces, but it puts further strain on our already very limited point reserves.

Honestly, it almost seems like if you can't max out a formation, it's hardly worth fielding one. and at that point-why bother TS?

I just feel like if you are not going all-in on the psykers, you'll be better off playing another legion.

We can have TS CAD with cultists just to bring Magnus in, then add one of the sorcerer formations or a daemon WC battery and still probably have points left for the Cult of Destruction.

The point with the Cult is that it supplements our list so well. It just fills all the holes in our roster, gives us solutions to tank and horde killing, and also gives us a nice amount of powerfists so we do not have to sacrifice psychic power rolls on heretech or pyromancy. Then we don't really need to go all out on psykers. If we have decent answers to AV and hordes, maybe we can get along with having 15-18 WC phases rather than 25+. Don't get me wrong, I really really like the psychic phase overload, but I have seen my opponents getting kinda bored just sitting around and watching me do my thing. They have started referring to my army as the "Thousand Warp Charge Sons". I figured I would make the game more enjoyable for them if I cut some corners where WC are concerned.

Sample list 1850 pts

TS CAD

Sorcerer, ML 3, Astral Grimoire, MoT, spell familiar

10 x Cultists, MoT
10 x Cultists, MoT

Magnus the Red

Chaos Daemons CAD

Herald of Tzeentch, ML3, Disc, The other Grimoire
11 x blue horrors
11 x blue horrors
5-6 screamers of Tzeentch

Heralds Anarchic
3 x ML1 Heralds of Tzeentch

IW Cult of Destruction
Warpsmith
3 x Obliterators
1 x Obliterator
1 x Obliterator

Don't have a calculator or the books with me but this should amount more or less to 1850 pts. Worst case scenario we can cripple our casters a bit. Then we have a decent bodycount, 21 WC, Magnus, a lot of anti-AV, fast units, astral grimoire, 2++ Magnus or screamerstar and our Cult of destruction. Sure it does not look like TS much, but it is a nice all around list with lots of answers.

I'm pretty new to 7E (and didn't play 6E before it), so I apologize for this newb question, but here goes. If I have an Exalted Sorcerer (for example), can he "double up" and count towards the composition requirements of both the Sekhmet Conclave and the War Coven, or does he have to count only towards one or the other?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Being able to bring the astral grimoire into a non Ts aggressive army is pretty useful. So I've converted up a TS warpsmith. Still thinking about TS oblits.

IW oblits are good in a CAD.. tank hunter is great.. I think death guard won out for oblits , T5 and fnp and fearless.

The main advantage for the Iron Warriors Obliterators is that they have little tax if you just wanted to add them. All you need is the HQ and then you can grab a bunch of OS Lascannons or Plasma Cannons.

They're definitely not as tough but they would help with keeping home objectives and killing tanks, which is the primary weakness for the army. The loss of durability is possibly worth it.

Brian888 wrote:
I'm pretty new to 7E (and didn't play 6E before it), so I apologize for this newb question, but here goes. If I have an Exalted Sorcerer (for example), can he "double up" and count towards the composition requirements of both the Sekhmet Conclave and the War Coven, or does he have to count only towards one or the other?

Only one of the formations.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?

Like 8 or 9 pages back I got same defeated response: TS is not a top competitive army, we will lose to the best blah blah blah blah

The point I'm trying to make is CSM is no longer a tier4 crappy faction, with Traitors Hate you can actually make a mid tier2 list if you mix legions and bring the most optimize. War Cabal is garbage at 1850, rubrics and occults are a waste. I posted a list earlier several pages back that combines TS with cyclopia cabal and IW. I guarantee you that list will put up a decent fight against gladius, still a uphill fight none the less.

You are far too extreme in your language in my opinion. You keep saying our units are garbage and we can't compete but the only justification I'm hearing from you on that is against white scars battle company with culexus. The last 100+ player tournament I went to I fought two wolf stars, 1 scat bike spam, an infernal tetrad, and a daemon summoning list. Guess how many had a culexus assassin? Not a single one is the correct answer. There definitely weren't any at the top tables and I didn't spot a single army like that while walking around the event. I did see a couple battle companies, but not with assassins and not anywhere near the top of the rankings.

I haven't fought many of the culexus in the past and I expect to see even less because the faq has made them so much harder to field and keep alive. Sisters of silence may start cropping up, but I think they'll be a lot easier for us to handle with our plethora of ap3 weapons.

The armies I'm more concerned with at tournaments are Tau riptides with stormsurges, wolfstars, scat bike spam, daemons, and flyrant spam. Those are the armies I see win the most events and those are the ones I think we should be most concerned with to be competitive. That's why I tested against a couple of those armies and it's why I don't think we're in as bad of a position as you're proclaiming. We actually have some good tools to deal with a lot of these forces and just need to learn ways to deploy against them and how to run our psykers.

If you want to be a debbie downer, go for it, but it's not contributing anything.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?

Like 8 or 9 pages back I got same defeated response: TS is not a top competitive army, we will lose to the best blah blah blah blah

The point I'm trying to make is CSM is no longer a tier4 crappy faction, with Traitors Hate you can actually make a mid tier2 list if you mix legions and bring the most optimize. War Cabal is garbage at 1850, rubrics and occults are a waste. I posted a list earlier several pages back that combines TS with cyclopia cabal and IW. I guarantee you that list will put up a decent fight against gladius, still a uphill fight none the less.

You are far too extreme in your language in my opinion. You keep saying our units are garbage and we can't compete but the only justification I'm hearing from you on that is against white scars battle company with culexus. The last 100+ player tournament I went to I fought two wolf stars, 1 scat bike spam, an infernal tetrad, and a daemon summoning list. Guess how many had a culexus assassin? Not a single one is the correct answer. There definitely weren't any at the top tables and I didn't spot a single army like that while walking around the event. I did see a couple battle companies, but not with assassins and not anywhere near the top of the rankings.

I haven't fought many of the culexus in the past and I expect to see even less because the faq has made them so much harder to field and keep alive. Sisters of silence may start cropping up, but I think they'll be a lot easier for us to handle with our plethora of ap3 weapons.

The armies I'm more concerned with at tournaments are Tau riptides with stormsurges, wolfstars, scat bike spam, daemons, and flyrant spam. Those are the armies I see win the most events and those are the ones I think we should be most concerned with to be competitive. That's why I tested against a couple of those armies and it's why I don't think we're in as bad of a position as you're proclaiming. We actually have some good tools to deal with a lot of these forces and just need to learn ways to deploy against them and how to run our psykers.

If you want to be a debbie downer, go for it, but it's not contributing anything.

The gladius is just an example that will give War Cabal issues. I'm still waiting for TS players who advocates War Cabal to provide solutions that can win effectively at 1850, so people like you who loves them Rubrics and Occults aren't providing any real lasting solutions and tactics either.

While I'm here advocating for mixing legions and Daemon allies to optimize TS to win at ITC/Nova. And I'm glad people are finally thinking that. Iron Warriors for example is a great way to supplement TS's weakness of dealing with AV.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?

Like 8 or 9 pages back I got same defeated response: TS is not a top competitive army, we will lose to the best blah blah blah blah

The point I'm trying to make is CSM is no longer a tier4 crappy faction, with Traitors Hate you can actually make a mid tier2 list if you mix legions and bring the most optimize. War Cabal is garbage at 1850, rubrics and occults are a waste. I posted a list earlier several pages back that combines TS with cyclopia cabal and IW. I guarantee you that list will put up a decent fight against gladius, still a uphill fight none the less.

4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.

Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?

Brian888 wrote:
Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?

Yes, they get rewards and artifacts, full stop.

Brian888 wrote:
Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?

Just rewards and artifacts. Bit of a let down that they don't get the full candy jar.

And, hell, since I was slow on the draw for my answer, may as well ask a question.

Would solo heralds or sorcerers on disks be good for much of anything? Trying to fudge around with a 9-model list for fun. Probably will just end up with using a bunch of ml1 heralds as cheap warp charge and model count though.

 Lansirill wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?

Just rewards and artifacts. Bit of a let down that they don't get the full candy jar.

Probably for the best, though. It'd be stupid easy for an Exalted Sorcerer to get a 2++ otherwise (rerolling 1s if you can manage to field max units in a Grand Coven formation).

You're just running vanilla Sorcerers at that rate instead. Because balance and all.

 Lansirill wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?

Just rewards and artifacts. Bit of a let down that they don't get the full candy jar.

And, hell, since I was slow on the draw for my answer, may as well ask a question.

Would solo heralds or sorcerers on disks be good for much of anything? Trying to fudge around with a 9-model list for fun. Probably will just end up with using a bunch of ml1 heralds as cheap warp charge and model count though.

That probably entirely depends on what kind of powers you manage to roll on the heralds or sorcerers. For example, a highly-mobile sorcerer with Treason of Tzeentch might draw an inordinate amount of attention from your opponent because of the shenanigans you can get up to with that power, and it seems that the move/Psychic Shriek/turbojet away course of action may be effective.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.

Can't get 2 racks in until 10 Scarabs IIRC and there's definately not enough points for 5 more Scarabs.

Thousand Sons is definitely a min-max player's nightmare.

- Mixed weapon loadouts or mandatory squads of 10
- Mandatory MLs and Champ tax on your Rubrics
- No Spell Familiar on your SOT Sorcs
- No choice of CC weapons on almost everything
- Mandatory Tzeentch power on every Psyker
- Major issues in attaining your best Formation bonus

Building a TS list probably verges on torture if you're the type of player who needs to juice a list to the fullest extent possible.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Thousand Sons is definitely a min-max player's nightmare.

- Mixed weapon loadouts or mandatory squads of 10
- Mandatory MLs and Champ tax on your Rubrics
- No Spell Familiar on your SOT Sorcs
- No choice of CC weapons on almost everything
- Mandatory Tzeentch power on every Psyker
- Major issues in attaining your best Formation bonus

Building a TS list probably verges on torture if you're the type of player who needs to juice a list to the fullest extent possible.

On the other hand, if there was a contest "Build your list in under a minute" we would be champions of the world!

 Drasius wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.

Can't get 2 racks in until 10 Scarabs IIRC and there's definately not enough points for 5 more Scarabs.

5 more is only 200 points that puts you at 1700 then 20 per rack 1780 which leaves you 70 points for other upgrades.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Being able to bring the astral grimoire into a non Ts aggressive army is pretty useful. So I've converted up a TS warpsmith. Still thinking about TS oblits.

IW oblits are good in a CAD.. tank hunter is great.. I think death guard won out for oblits , T5 and fnp and fearless.

The main advantage for the Iron Warriors Obliterators is that they have little tax if you just wanted to add them. All you need is the HQ and then you can grab a bunch of OS Lascannons or Plasma Cannons.

They're definitely not as tough but they would help with keeping home objectives and killing tanks, which is the primary weakness for the army. The loss of durability is possibly worth it.

IW CAD:
-DP of Tz with Fleshmetal Exoskeleton (2+ rerollable!)
-1x Oblit
-1x Oblit

That clocks in as 370 pts. (or replace the HQ with barebones Sorc comes in as 200 pts).

Not really all that bad of an idea...

Here's my first stab with Maggie, Oblits and Lorestealer:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Thousand Sons is definitely a min-max player's nightmare.

- Mixed weapon loadouts or mandatory squads of 10
- Mandatory MLs and Champ tax on your Rubrics
- No Spell Familiar on your SOT Sorcs
- No choice of CC weapons on almost everything
- Mandatory Tzeentch power on every Psyker
- Major issues in attaining your best Formation bonus

Building a TS list probably verges on torture if you're the type of player who needs to juice a list to the fullest extent possible.

Oh yeah. The shop I play at is like the Colosseum, people there are ruthless. Take Magnus for example I wont bring him because he is shut down WAY to easily Culexus becomes a machine gun around him and all you have to do is deny Siphon Magic and he becomes a giant paper weight. SOT are good in a maxxed Cabal but that's the only place, they just become super expensive terminators that die just as fast as regular terminators and have AP 3 bolters outside of that. IW Havocs with Plasma Rifles seem to be worth their weight in gold, since I prefer buffing my units over mind bullets, and putting prescience on them makes them amazing against anything that isn't AV 13. Right now I am eyeballing TK because TK dome gives half your TS army a 3++ save vs shooting attacks, which would be very useful.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.

Can't get 2 racks in until 10 Scarabs IIRC and there's definately not enough points for 5 more Scarabs.

5 more is only 200 points that puts you at 1700 then 20 per rack 1780 which leaves you 70 points for other upgrades.

I though you meant in a useful cabal (1760), not a barebones (1500) unplayable one. Yes, if you took out all the useful upgrades and replaced them with 5 more terminators, you could indeed have 4 helfyre racks.

 Drasius wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.

Can't get 2 racks in until 10 Scarabs IIRC and there's definately not enough points for 5 more Scarabs.

5 more is only 200 points that puts you at 1700 then 20 per rack 1780 which leaves you 70 points for other upgrades.

I though you meant in a useful cabal (1760), not a barebones (1500) unplayable one. Yes, if you took out all the useful upgrades and replaced them with 5 more terminators, you could indeed have 4 helfyre racks.

Yeah its doable but not viable. I would say Heavy Warp Flamer is better since its a guaranteed hit.