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No worries. It's hard to get tone of voice on the internet sometimes. Possibly my misreading of what you said.

I'm not sure whether to make deathwatch or orks for my next army. It would be fun to make something totally different, and to smash ynnari in their stupid faces. I'm not sure there's an imperial list that can do that. Hordes can.

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.

I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.

I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.

I'm going to run 5 intercessors and 5 inceptors just so I can finally just call it an Interceptor squad.

 SputnikDX wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.

I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.

I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.

I'm going to run 5 intercessors and 5 inceptors just so I can finally just call it an Interceptor squad.

Well to be fair, that's what most people have been calling inceptors anyway. I get where you're coming from but to be honest I don't think that's a great squad. Deathwatch inceptors aren't great, other than for letting a unit fall back.

I don't think you understand.

I'm going to run Intercessors and Inceptors JUST so I can call them Interceptors. So everyone who says "they're intercessors" or "they're inceptors" can be immediately talked down to. There is no changing my mind.

Also FYI Battlescribe has the Inceptor prices wrong for DW, since they need to pay for 2 weapons and Battlescribe only has them paying for 1.

 SputnikDX wrote:
I don't think you understand.

I'm going to run Intercessors and Inceptors JUST so I can call them Interceptors. So everyone who says "they're intercessors" or "they're inceptors" can be immediately talked down to. There is no changing my mind.

Also FYI Battlescribe has the Inceptor prices wrong for DW, since they need to pay for 2 weapons and Battlescribe only has them paying for 1.

Oh, I do understand, and I approve of your plan in a way. It's obviously a very silly thing to do, but wins points for bloody-mindedness.

I'm not sure what the point of battlescribe is, other than helping people to create illegal army lists, accidentally cheat their friends and get disqualified at events. I find excel far more reliable.

If I do breakdown and go DW over RG, I think I'm going to end up leaving all my Primaris shoulders as the default, though I shudder at having to try to freehand all the icons. Just too much to buy all those large pads and too many of my Primaris are the snap fit.

I'd probably start with 2 units of the intergressors and 1 of the blasters...Though, I'm still considering going 1 unit of Vets over the Aggressors cause rapid firing SIA storm bolters is so nice, but they'd also die so much faster...

Mandragola wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.

I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.

I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.

I'm going to run 5 intercessors and 5 inceptors just so I can finally just call it an Interceptor squad.

Well to be fair, that's what most people have been calling inceptors anyway. I get where you're coming from but to be honest I don't think that's a great squad. Deathwatch inceptors aren't great, other than for letting a unit fall back.

Well that's much better than calling them incestors which is pretty close to that too lol.

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.

I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.

I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.

I'm going to point out that Heltergressors as a label is misleading on account of there being no actual Aggressor involved.

So, naturally, I'm on board with it. Confuse the xenos

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.

I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.

I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.

I'm going to point out that Heltergressors as a label is misleading on account of there being no actual Aggressor involved.

So, naturally, I'm on board with it. Confuse the xenos

A valid point. It should really be Heltercessors, not Heltergressors. I guess Heltergressors might involve assault plasma incinerators with an aggressor, but that feels like a bit of a mess of a unit to me.

I tend to dislike the flamer Aggressors out of principal... I just hate guns that are so easy to be made useless... but something to consider with them is that in overwatch they always get to double tap since the preceding movement phase is your opponents. So they probably didn't move then ^-^ Even with that it isn't too hard to make an 8" charge roll to make that 8.1" charge you need to keep them from shooting you.

 Captain Garius wrote:
I tend to dislike the flamer Aggressors out of principal... I just hate guns that are so easy to be made useless... but something to consider with them is that in overwatch they always get to double tap since the preceding movement phase is your opponents. So they probably didn't move then ^-^ Even with that it isn't too hard to make an 8" charge roll to make that 8.1" charge you need to keep them from shooting you.

That’s not how the rule works. Aggressors can fire twice if they remained stationary during their turn, not in the preceding movement phase. They don’t necessarily get to double shoot for overwatch.

In any case, as you say, it’s fairly easy to prevent overwatch if your opponent’s paying attention. If anything, a flamer aggressor is at its worst in a big unit, as the enemy can easily charge from a position that’s outside of 8” of him, but a lot closer to other members of the squad.

Mandragola wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
I tend to dislike the flamer Aggressors out of principal... I just hate guns that are so easy to be made useless... but something to consider with them is that in overwatch they always get to double tap since the preceding movement phase is your opponents. So they probably didn't move then ^-^ Even with that it isn't too hard to make an 8" charge roll to make that 8.1" charge you need to keep them from shooting you.

That’s not how the rule works. Aggressors can fire twice if they remained stationary during their turn, not in the preceding movement phase. They don’t necessarily get to double shoot for overwatch.

In any case, as you say, it’s fairly easy to prevent overwatch if your opponent’s paying attention. If anything, a flamer aggressor is at its worst in a big unit, as the enemy can easily charge from a position that’s outside of 8” of him, but a lot closer to other members of the squad.

Yet another example as to why flamers are overcosted and underutilized. Poor Aggressors don't even get to do anything with themselves when out of range, whereas models carrying things like combi-flamers or the infernus heavy bolter aren't just standing around admiring the scenery. If flamers were cheaper, I think they'd be worth sprinkling around for overwatch purposes in those combi forms, but not as a primary weapon until they look at their ranges. My assumption is that GW is backed into a hard place on flamers because it seems to me they don't like the idea of deep striking flamers (even though that sounds so bloody cool and cinematic) and are concerned about the impact of flamers against flying vehicles (because admittedly that is kind of silly).

But alas, that's a discussion for another time and place.

Morale of the story - Flamegressors are bad and they should feel bad

Flamers neeed to be expanded to 10" range. The game desperately needs some anti-horde weaponry worth taking, and 10" flamers might make a dent in the problem.

I'm debating Deathwatch atm. But I can't bring myself to do a repaint and it feels.....wrong.....not to have Deathwatch colours. That and my next big tournament is at WHW and they get picky about that stuff.

Which brings me to: Pure Primaris at 1750 for GT Heat 3. I'm thinking of scaling down my brigade list to the following:
gravis captain
lt with bolter
3x5 intercessors
3x3 aggressors
3x3 inceptors (bolter)
3x5 hellblasters (assault)

will suck against tanks but its a lot of bodies and dakka for the points

Ericthegreen wrote:
I'm debating Deathwatch atm. But I can't bring myself to do a repaint and it feels.....wrong.....not to have Deathwatch colours. That and my next big tournament is at WHW and they get picky about that stuff.

Which brings me to: Pure Primaris at 1750 for GT Heat 3. I'm thinking of scaling down my brigade list to the following:
gravis captain
lt with bolter
3x5 intercessors
3x3 aggressors
3x3 inceptors (bolter)
3x5 hellblasters (assault)

will suck against tanks but its a lot of bodies and dakka for the points

That's not enough for a brigade. You need another HQ and 3 more troops - or is that already factored in?

It's an army that could work, unless you come up against IG... or quite a few other things to be honest. Not sure I would recommend it for a qualifier.

Mandragola wrote:

That's not enough for a brigade. You need another HQ and 3 more troops - or is that already factored in?

It's an army that could work, unless you come up against IG... or quite a few other things to be honest. Not sure I would recommend it for a qualifier.

apologies. My brigade list is posted a couple of pages back. its this plus a libby and 3 scout units (and rapid fire on the hellblasters instead of assault)

This is a straight battalion.

It's not going to be hugely competitive. But mid table mediocrity with 5 good games i'll be happy with. Like I said, toying with Deathwatch and lumping the aggressors and hellblasters in with inceptor squads but as the army will be painted in chapter colours not deathwatch, i'm sure someone will have an issue with it

EDIT: and have just read the Deatchwatch rules properly. You don't have to mix squads. And they all have combat squads so squad bloat isn't that much of an issue.

Holy cow I need to get theorycrafting.

Ericthegreen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

That's not enough for a brigade. You need another HQ and 3 more troops - or is that already factored in?

It's an army that could work, unless you come up against IG... or quite a few other things to be honest. Not sure I would recommend it for a qualifier.

apologies. My brigade list is posted a couple of pages back. its this plus a libby and 3 scout units (and rapid fire on the hellblasters instead of assault)

This is a straight battalion.

It's not going to be hugely competitive. But mid table mediocrity with 5 good games i'll be happy with. Like I said, toying with Deathwatch and lumping the aggressors and hellblasters in with inceptor squads but as the army will be painted in chapter colours not deathwatch, i'm sure someone will have an issue with it

Fair enough then. I think that if I were you I'd move fully away from the brigade. You've got units in there now that are paying taxes that you don't need to. You could drop some stuff and add in some anti-tank.

Mandragola wrote:

Fair enough then. I think that if I were you I'd move fully away from the brigade. You've got units in there now that are paying taxes that you don't need to. You could drop some stuff and add in some anti-tank.

Oh indeed. That list was built before the upgrades in CP to battalions and brigades. The reason for the brigade was to start the hellblasters and aggressors in double tap range.

As in the edited post above. Having fully read the deathwatch rules - holy hell i might have to swtich

 grouchoben wrote:
Flamers neeed to be expanded to 10" range. The game desperately needs some anti-horde weaponry worth taking, and 10" flamers might make a dent in the problem.

Flame weapons need the grav-flux bombard rule. 1D3 shots. Every 5 models in a unit = another 1D3 shots. 5 man mobs get hit with 2D3 auto hits. 10 man get 3D3. 30 man gets 7D3, and so on.

Hi all,

I'm finally giving in and I'm about to start work on my Primaris Rainbow Warriors, and I'm wondering how far I'll get with the models I currently own. Obviously this is not a complete army, so I'd like to know what the next recommendations are:

-Anniversary Primaris Captain with Dirty Great Fist
-25th Anniversary Veteran Sergeant ('Brother-Sergeant Birthday Boy')
-12 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles
-5 Terminators from the 7th Edition Starter Box (Dark Vengeance?)

My other armies are Sisters and Chaos Marines so obviously I'm expecting this to be a bit of a change, but how do the new Marines actually play? I've read through the codex enough to see that the best anti-armour options appear to be Heavy Plasma Incinerators from the Helblasters and Grenade Launchers are an automatic take for any squad of intercessors, but otherwise I'm clueless. I'm not really a fan of the Reivers as models, but otherwise I'm open to trying anything with a 'Primaris' in the name!

If it's any help, I usually play with power levels and my regular opponent is Tau and Tyranids.

EDIT: Oh, does anyone have any idea what chapter tactics the Rainbow Warriors should draw from? I think the modern interpretation is that they're successors from the White Scars but until Primaris Bicycles come out I can't really go for that.

According to this http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rainbow_Warriors they are Ultramarines successors. Ultramarines are a decent tactic. The Ld buff hasn't come into play much for me, but Fall Back and shoot is situationally powerful. Plus you have the option of using Primarch Roboute.

If you build Hellblasters, do not make them Heavy Plasma. The other two options have their pros and cons, but the Heavy 1 profile is not worth the bonus to Strength as far as I'm concerned. Take lascannons instead.

The terminators: can you convert them to TH/SS? Because SB termies are usually underwhelming. But you're right about grenade launchers being an auto-include.

Ultramarine tactic is super strong on stuff like aggressors and leviathan dreads. If there was some way to get it on intercessors with SIA, it woudl be good for them. I'd say use a battalion of DW to get your troops, and then go from there.

Hey, it's your call how you run your rainbow warriors. They may be a UM successor chapter, but you can really choose whatever tactics you want, game by game. Great choice of Chapters, by the way.

i know the hotness is trying to get majority toughness 5, but that's very points expensive and i've been thinking of a slightly different approach. I've had a load of primaris marines on sprues for some time and never finished them because i kept thinking how much more i'd prefer them if the hellblasters were in the squads of intercessors instead of their own thing. Rather than set the goal as going for the majority toughness 5, i'm looking at just making better generalist intercessor squads. intercessors are what benefits from special issue ammo so i wanted to capitalize on that more.

What do you think about;

5 intercessors, 2 hellblasters, 1 aggressor - all with the assault variants of their guns and a sword on the sarg, makes for a 218 point unit. so doesn't break the bank, can advance every turn to help mitigate the lack of transports for primaris, and feels like it would be a well rounded squad. Sure it doesn't have tough 5 and a bazillion guns, but 3 of them is only 654 pts, instead of 1000 pts like many kill teams.

i've also considered instead of running 3, running 2 of these and the 3rd being the exact same thing, just swap out all the guns for the heavy variants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ericthegreen wrote:
I'm debating Deathwatch atm. But I can't bring myself to do a repaint and it feels.....wrong.....not to have Deathwatch colours. That and my next big tournament is at WHW and they get picky about that stuff.

Which brings me to: Pure Primaris at 1750 for GT Heat 3. I'm thinking of scaling down my brigade list to the following:
gravis captain
lt with bolter
3x5 intercessors
3x3 aggressors
3x3 inceptors (bolter)
3x5 hellblasters (assault)

will suck against tanks but its a lot of bodies and dakka for the points

This is a bit off topic, but do they really get picky about what color your marines are? I thought the only person who said "you can't use the blood angels codex because your dudes aren't red" was that one creep at every gaming store that no one wants to play against. Hell for mine i'm not going to go buy several $100 in upgrade sprues, i'm painting mine however i see fit, either grey and blue, or possible totally-not-alpha-legion green/blue, call them whatever chapter i make up fluff for, and use the deathwatch codex. As long as you don't try to use fluff to break codex rules and use the codex rules as is I see no way anyone can complain.

I agree on the colours, but it still feels weird. I'm thinking of repurposing my primaris chapter, keeping my yellow scheme, buying more DW pads, and painting the arm/pad black. It would be so much easier, but something's telling me to start a classic black-scheme team.

I've been having fun with all the Fortis possibilities. The truth is, the DW intercessor is such a solid model that it's hard to build a bad squad!

I've enjoyed a barebones squad with just one aggressor in there, as if they reach where you want them to be they can put down roots; your opponent will feel pressure to chew through them to stop that double-tap aggressor who's going to put out 20 shots on his own next round. 137pts is an amount I can live with.

That's an interesting idea, grouchoben. Aggressors are still very efficient even compared to intercessors, so I might want 5 intercessors and 2 aggressors but just adding a few aggressors does a good job of evening out the squad.

Converted my primaris list to pure DeathWatch. Ran my first game and dropped against what is normally my death - a 6 leman russ list backed by drop troopers. Some squads I ran and my results:

5 Intercessors, 3 Agressor (flame), 2 Inceptor:
I had two of these and used the teleportarium stratagem to drop them in round 2. The Intercessors are little more than bullet sponges unfortunately, but the inceptors performed wonderfully. I think it would be better to only have 2 aggressors instead of 3. Then the squad will go to T5 after my first casualty.

5 intercessors, 5 hellblasters
So good. The Intercessors take the initial hits and clean up the dangerous soft targets looking to engage the hellblasters. The hellblasters just blew up one tank after another. It was horrific what 5 hellblasters in rapid fire range can do.

10 stalker bolt rifle intercessors
This was my star squad for killing heavy infantry in the old list. They actually underperform in deathwatch as they get no benefit from kraken rounds and the standard bolter intercessors can match them for range with vengence rounds. Going to try them with the hellblasters, but it might be time to pry off those stalker clips...

10 intercessor bolt rifle intercessors
This squad absorbed a lot of fire once they starting unleashing kraken rounds. They performed pretty well before 1000+pts of Astra Militarum opened up on them.

I miss having the advantage of chapter tactics, but the watch master performed well with the damage boost to his stalker rifle.

i'm currently torn on weapon options for hellblasters with RG chapter tactics.

SftS is better for the rapid fire version, but when you have other units that want to SftS (lookin' at you aggressors), the assault plasma seems to get the most out of the chapter tactics and be throwing shots downfield early.

general consensus seems to be all rapid fire all the time. Is that other people's experience?

I like assauly plaz too, right up until you hit a high-toughness list and they suddenly feel like peashooters. Still experimenting with them.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
5 intercessors, 5 hellblasters
So good. The Intercessors take the initial hits and clean up the dangerous soft targets looking to engage the hellblasters. The hellblasters just blew up one tank after another. It was horrific what 5 hellblasters in rapid fire range can do.

Were you fighting Leman Russes? Were the Hellblasters alone enough to deal with them? How many did you take total? How did you mitigate your marines exploding under Gets Hot?

Really trying to get my Deathwatch army together and anti-vehicle is what I'm struggling to deal with. Would love some pointers.

 grouchoben wrote:
I agree on the colours, but it still feels weird. I'm thinking of repurposing my primaris chapter, keeping my yellow scheme, buying more DW pads, and painting the arm/pad black. It would be so much easier, but something's telling me to start a classic black-scheme team.

The fun thing about Deathwatch is since they come from so many different Chapters, you can make a few HQs that come from your own custom chapter to really keep them as Your Guys.