Switch Theme:

And now for today's dose of salt  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Mr Morden wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Just delete the Eradicator special rule and make it a 1 CP Strat - as it should be.

The strat would be limited to them?

I Like it.

But ,that would Make Sense...


yep and sadly ....yep.....


Sense if for the weak?
Or was it sanity ?
Can't remember dow all that well with the Chaos voicelines..


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Vilehydra wrote:
Standing still is neither dynamic nor fun.


Well, getting your tanks nuked off the board by models you couldn't engage or avoid, because they were hiding behind a wall and can waltz out to threaten anywhere outside your deployment zone, isn't exactly dynamic or fun either.

The Aggressor profile is designed around lack of mobility being their inbuilt weakness. They have decent range, they're tough for their cost, and they throw out a ton of firepower when stationary- but they can't be both maximally effective and mobile at the same time. Melta has the Assault profile because it's meant to be used on the move, but the normal tradeoff is very short range. The melta rifle completely circumvents that normal weakness, so something has to replace it.

I'm fine with them having double-fire, it's the trivial restriction on it combined with their high threat range that makes it over-the-top. Even just changing the double-fire restriction to be within half range would fix it; they'd still be hideously lethal, but would need some strategy to get within 12".
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The whole point of the "shoot twice if stationary" rule is that it's a big drawback, so you don't get your cake and eat it too.

The problem with eradicators is you do get to have your cake and eat it too. It's an illustration of very bad game design, even apart from the fact that it's absurdly, laughably undercosted at the current points values.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 catbarf wrote:

The Aggressor profile is designed around lack of mobility being their inbuilt weakness. They have decent range, they're tough for their cost, and they throw out a ton of firepower when stationary- but they can't be both maximally effective and mobile at the same time.
Unless you're Ultramarines in Tac doctrine and then wheeee!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 catbarf wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
Standing still is neither dynamic nor fun.


Well, getting your tanks nuked off the board by models you couldn't engage or avoid, because they were hiding behind a wall and can waltz out to threaten anywhere outside your deployment zone, isn't exactly dynamic or fun either.

The Aggressor profile is designed around lack of mobility being their inbuilt weakness. They have decent range, they're tough for their cost, and they throw out a ton of firepower when stationary- but they can't be both maximally effective and mobile at the same time. Melta has the Assault profile because it's meant to be used on the move, but the normal tradeoff is very short range. The melta rifle completely circumvents that normal weakness, so something has to replace it.

I'm fine with them having double-fire, it's the trivial restriction on it combined with their high threat range that makes it over-the-top. Even just changing the double-fire restriction to be within half range would fix it; they'd still be hideously lethal, but would need some strategy to get within 12".


I guess that's the difference then, I'm not fine with them having double-fire at all really. There are multiple ways to override a no-move restriction (IE ultramarines super doctrine or salamanders strategem) that make it much more difficult to balance. It also encourages static gameplay, which was one of the major issues with space marines in 8th.

Double-tapping is inherently unstable because of the way in-phase buffs act with it. It is not the right call for this particular unit.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






Here is some salt for you.

Custodes Can do the following, for 4 CP to a Telemon Dreadnought.

Shadowkeepers: You get a strat that makes it -1 to wound a Shadowkeepers unit. So with the Custodes banner, the Telemon Dreadnought will be at -1 to hit, -1 to wound, halve damage, +1 attack and re-roll charges, and a 5+ save versus mortal wounds. All for 1 CP at the start and ~3 CP/phase turn.

Which means Meltas would be wounding on 5's with half damage...

For just two more points you can add The Emperor’s Auspice to it so your opponents cannot reroll any dice when attacking it.

The more I look at Custodes, the more I can't help but feel no one actually play tested any of these armies.

In what universe is that a fair unit for that ludicrously low amount of CP? It basically would be unkillable for a turn.

   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Vilehydra wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
Standing still is neither dynamic nor fun.


Well, getting your tanks nuked off the board by models you couldn't engage or avoid, because they were hiding behind a wall and can waltz out to threaten anywhere outside your deployment zone, isn't exactly dynamic or fun either.

The Aggressor profile is designed around lack of mobility being their inbuilt weakness. They have decent range, they're tough for their cost, and they throw out a ton of firepower when stationary- but they can't be both maximally effective and mobile at the same time. Melta has the Assault profile because it's meant to be used on the move, but the normal tradeoff is very short range. The melta rifle completely circumvents that normal weakness, so something has to replace it.

I'm fine with them having double-fire, it's the trivial restriction on it combined with their high threat range that makes it over-the-top. Even just changing the double-fire restriction to be within half range would fix it; they'd still be hideously lethal, but would need some strategy to get within 12".


I guess that's the difference then, I'm not fine with them having double-fire at all really. There are multiple ways to override a no-move restriction (IE ultramarines super doctrine or salamanders strategem) that make it much more difficult to balance. It also encourages static gameplay, which was one of the major issues with space marines in 8th.

Double-tapping is inherently unstable because of the way in-phase buffs act with it. It is not the right call for this particular unit.


Again just make it a strat for double firing and I think the unit would be far less offensive - in all senses.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






Vilehydra wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
Standing still is neither dynamic nor fun.


Well, getting your tanks nuked off the board by models you couldn't engage or avoid, because they were hiding behind a wall and can waltz out to threaten anywhere outside your deployment zone, isn't exactly dynamic or fun either.

The Aggressor profile is designed around lack of mobility being their inbuilt weakness. They have decent range, they're tough for their cost, and they throw out a ton of firepower when stationary- but they can't be both maximally effective and mobile at the same time. Melta has the Assault profile because it's meant to be used on the move, but the normal tradeoff is very short range. The melta rifle completely circumvents that normal weakness, so something has to replace it.

I'm fine with them having double-fire, it's the trivial restriction on it combined with their high threat range that makes it over-the-top. Even just changing the double-fire restriction to be within half range would fix it; they'd still be hideously lethal, but would need some strategy to get within 12".


I guess that's the difference then, I'm not fine with them having double-fire at all really. There are multiple ways to override a no-move restriction (IE ultramarines super doctrine or salamanders strategem) that make it much more difficult to balance. It also encourages static gameplay, which was one of the major issues with space marines in 8th.

Double-tapping is inherently unstable because of the way in-phase buffs act with it. It is not the right call for this particular unit.


Look at the nonsense I posted just below you though. Now those double tap meltas don't seem so bad do they?
   
Made in nl
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle





They are still bad, even if you get to have an IH level dreadnought for 3 cp a turn. The thing about these melta dudes is they seriously over-perform for a laughable point cost. 3cp a turn is expensive and while it might still not justify such tankiness there is at least a substantial cost involved. These dudes can kill their own point´s worth of units even without the sure to be there re-roll auras and that's ridiculous.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Shoot the other Custodes, then.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






 JNAProductions wrote:
Shoot the other Custodes, then.


Also almost pointless, every time I play that army I through buckets of dice at them only for my friend to go "LOL 3++" and save everything. Custodes be dumb, the dumbest army in the game and I very much hate them. If I had some power armor, I'd show you on it where they touch me.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Togusa wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Shoot the other Custodes, then.


Also almost pointless, every time I play that army I through buckets of dice at them only for my friend to go "LOL 3++" and save everything. Custodes be dumb, the dumbest army in the game and I very much hate them. If I had some power armor, I'd show you on it where they touch me.
So... Don't shoot the basic Custodian Guard? They and characters are the only models that can get a 3++. Bikes cap at 4++, Terminators 4++, some Dreads only have a 5++...

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Voss wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Ugh. I just realized Fire Dragon exarchs (and probably some of the other exarchs) are an extra drag on their units now. Most of their 'unique' weapons still have to be paid for.

With the base cost of the units going up and the base weapon going to zero, that really hurts. You're effectively paying for a non-existent fusion gun and then the fire pike too (which is wildly overpriced at 15).



I believe it is FIRE DRAGON keyword so the Exarch pays 0.


I'm not sure what you mean here. The entry I saw just says '15'
Is there a hidden exception somewhere else? Because that just adds another layer of annoyance to the incessant page flipping that back-of-the-book points brought us with 8th.


I have not visually confirmed, but SS82 called it out as such and I just presume if follows the keyword logic like the infantry entries.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Togusa wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Shoot the other Custodes, then.


Also almost pointless, every time I play that army I through buckets of dice at them only for my friend to go "LOL 3++" and save everything. Custodes be dumb, the dumbest army in the game and I very much hate them. If I had some power armor, I'd show you on it where they touch me.

Less dumb than spacemarines with their reroll your rerolls BS and laughably undercausted units.

Also a Telemon is 300 points.
Is it odd that GW hasn't FAW'd the custodes dreadnaught strategum yeah but also what event's have happened since War of the Spider was released to highlight this 0.

Get used to shooting at -1 its fairly standard in 9th so the Vexilia is often redundant.

Marines have the same anti MW strategum
Because you know where those custodes strategums where copy pasted from Marines Codex.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh, yup, you're right.

You know, as someone who doesn't play SM, I find the transport things awfully confusing.
Primaris are veey awkwardly executed. They're essentially yet-another another special space marine type, in the fashion of Deathwatch or Grey Knights, but lumped into the primary Space Marine book to facilitate transitioning/encourage sales and adoption. It also means they can test the waters with the concept but make sure the army is playable from the start since they can draw upon the traditional marine armory.

From a product-rollout standpoint it's very smart. From a game design standpoint it's very unwieldy.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Spoiler:
 Togusa wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
Standing still is neither dynamic nor fun.


Well, getting your tanks nuked off the board by models you couldn't engage or avoid, because they were hiding behind a wall and can waltz out to threaten anywhere outside your deployment zone, isn't exactly dynamic or fun either.

The Aggressor profile is designed around lack of mobility being their inbuilt weakness. They have decent range, they're tough for their cost, and they throw out a ton of firepower when stationary- but they can't be both maximally effective and mobile at the same time. Melta has the Assault profile because it's meant to be used on the move, but the normal tradeoff is very short range. The melta rifle completely circumvents that normal weakness, so something has to replace it.

I'm fine with them having double-fire, it's the trivial restriction on it combined with their high threat range that makes it over-the-top. Even just changing the double-fire restriction to be within half range would fix it; they'd still be hideously lethal, but would need some strategy to get within 12".


I guess that's the difference then, I'm not fine with them having double-fire at all really. There are multiple ways to override a no-move restriction (IE ultramarines super doctrine or salamanders strategem) that make it much more difficult to balance. It also encourages static gameplay, which was one of the major issues with space marines in 8th.

Double-tapping is inherently unstable because of the way in-phase buffs act with it. It is not the right call for this particular unit.


Look at the nonsense I posted just below you though. Now those double tap meltas don't seem so bad do they?


First off - One broken unit doesn't justify another. Powercreep in general is just bad for the game

Secondly - Spending 1 + 3CP/Turn is in itself an expensive trade-off. The model is also what? Somewhere between 300 and 400 points kitted? This buff also doesn't stop me from just shooting other not super buffed things - mitigating the effect of that CP Spend.

Thirdly - I'd have to do the math, but I think that two salamander eradicator squads with a jump pack librarian w/CM (365 cost total, close to a telemon IIRC) come very close to killing - if not killing the Telemon for 2 CP (1 for a reroll on Nullzone, one for Crucible of battle on a squad).

   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Shoot the other Custodes, then.


Also almost pointless, every time I play that army I through buckets of dice at them only for my friend to go "LOL 3++" and save everything. Custodes be dumb, the dumbest army in the game and I very much hate them. If I had some power armor, I'd show you on it where they touch me.
So... Don't shoot the basic Custodian Guard? They and characters are the only models that can get a 3++. Bikes cap at 4++, Terminators 4++, some Dreads only have a 5++...


That's all he brings is Custodian guard and captains. No bikes, no Terminators, 1 Dread, which he CP spams to make it unkillable for at least a single turn, sometimes twice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vilehydra wrote:
Spoiler:
 Togusa wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
Standing still is neither dynamic nor fun.


Well, getting your tanks nuked off the board by models you couldn't engage or avoid, because they were hiding behind a wall and can waltz out to threaten anywhere outside your deployment zone, isn't exactly dynamic or fun either.

The Aggressor profile is designed around lack of mobility being their inbuilt weakness. They have decent range, they're tough for their cost, and they throw out a ton of firepower when stationary- but they can't be both maximally effective and mobile at the same time. Melta has the Assault profile because it's meant to be used on the move, but the normal tradeoff is very short range. The melta rifle completely circumvents that normal weakness, so something has to replace it.

I'm fine with them having double-fire, it's the trivial restriction on it combined with their high threat range that makes it over-the-top. Even just changing the double-fire restriction to be within half range would fix it; they'd still be hideously lethal, but would need some strategy to get within 12".


I guess that's the difference then, I'm not fine with them having double-fire at all really. There are multiple ways to override a no-move restriction (IE ultramarines super doctrine or salamanders strategem) that make it much more difficult to balance. It also encourages static gameplay, which was one of the major issues with space marines in 8th.

Double-tapping is inherently unstable because of the way in-phase buffs act with it. It is not the right call for this particular unit.


Look at the nonsense I posted just below you though. Now those double tap meltas don't seem so bad do they?


First off - One broken unit doesn't justify another. Powercreep in general is just bad for the game

Secondly - Spending 1 + 3CP/Turn is in itself an expensive trade-off. The model is also what? Somewhere between 300 and 400 points kitted? This buff also doesn't stop me from just shooting other not super buffed things - mitigating the effect of that CP Spend.

Thirdly - I'd have to do the math, but I think that two salamander eradicator squads with a jump pack librarian w/CM (365 cost total, close to a telemon IIRC) come very close to killing - if not killing the Telemon for 2 CP (1 for a reroll on Nullzone, one for Crucible of battle on a squad).



Not even.

First of all it's either the wardens or a chacter that get's the 3+ cancel spell strat. So the Libby wiffs and does nothing. Crucible is negated by the -1 to wound, returning metlas to wounding only on a 4+. I'd be interested to see said math, but as I see it, the golden bananas are just way too op.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Shoot the other Custodes, then.


Also almost pointless, every time I play that army I through buckets of dice at them only for my friend to go "LOL 3++" and save everything. Custodes be dumb, the dumbest army in the game and I very much hate them. If I had some power armor, I'd show you on it where they touch me.

Less dumb than spacemarines with their reroll your rerolls BS and laughably undercausted units.

Also a Telemon is 300 points.
Is it odd that GW hasn't FAW'd the custodes dreadnaught strategum yeah but also what event's have happened since War of the Spider was released to highlight this 0.

Get used to shooting at -1 its fairly standard in 9th so the Vexilia is often redundant.

Marines have the same anti MW strategum
Because you know where those custodes strategums where copy pasted from Marines Codex.


Rerolls are great until Ad Mech parks a helicopter over you that turns them off. Or Custodes pays 1CP to just say "no."


There has always been marine hate, that's for sure. But, come off it. Even the competitive types are saying marines will be average at best, unless they're new book is a complete redo with adjusted stats, items, relics and strats. Over half of the strats in the marine book are literally worthless. Three vindecators! Oh boy!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 22:25:49


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Fairly sure that strategum died with codex 1.0 codex 2.0 had plenty of usefull strategums in it, heck charge the telemon and punch it to death on 4+ with intercessors.

Sound like your issue is more he is list tailoring hard to counter marines.
Seriously 1 telemon as his only shooting and massed stormshield infantry means he's got a lot of hard loose match ups.

And I'll say this again those strategums your complaining about like half all damage to a dreadnaught is copied word for word from the marine codex dude.
Marines abused it for months enjoy feeling how good awful it was to play against. Atleast he can't use intercessors to bodyguard his telemon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 22:37:04


 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






Ice_can wrote:
Fairly sure that strategum died with codex 1.0 codex 2.0 had plenty of usefull strategums in it, heck charge the telemon and punch it to death on 4+ with intercessors.

Sound like your issue is more he is list tailoring hard to counter marines.
Seriously 1 telemon as his only shooting and massed stormshield infantry means he's got a lot of hard loose match ups.

And I'll say this again those strategums your complaining about like half all damage to a dreadnaught is copied word for word from the marine codex dude.
Marines abused it for months enjoy feeling how good awful it was to play against. Atleast he can't use intercessors to bodyguard his telemon.


I never saw that in my marine book and I've been playing them for years, what was it called?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Alright - finished up the math (out of curiosity more then anything else) and found that I had no idea how to incorporate singular rerolls Think I got it though, feel free to DC
Here are the following assumptions:
These are Salamander Eradicators, so each time they shoot they get a single RR to hit and Wound
It is Turn 2 or 3, meaning that the Promethean Cult Super Doctrine is active (AP5 Meltas, and all melta weapons receive +1 to wound)
One squad will receive the benefits of crucible of battle (a further +1 to wound for 1 cp)
Librarian is in melta range due to nullzone range

The Dreadnought is the target of half Damage, -1 to hit, -1 to wound

Poorly formatted maths -

Spoiler:
3 Shots hitting on 4+ with a single RR averages 58.3% or 1.75 hits
from here on out we're assuming two hits for the purpose of wound calculation, as the single reroll changes the effectiveness of the roll differently depending on the dice (IE, a single dice with a one reroll has a 75% for a 4 up. Each of Two dice with a single reroll has a 68.75% chance for a 4+, and for 3 dice with a single reroll each dice has a 64.58% chance of being a 4+)

So wounding ratio for 2 dice on a 4+ is 68.75% (the -1 to wound is negate by promethean cult)
The wounding ratio for 2 dice on a 3+ is 85.18% (An additional +1 by the crucible of battle trait)

The Non-strategem squad would convert 40% (.5833 x .6875) of 3 shots into 1.2 wounding hits x2 - so 2.4 wounding hits total
The strategemed squad would convert 49.6% (.5833 x .8518) of 3 shots into 1.5 wounding hits x2 - so 3 wounding hits total

Wounding hits in melta range deal an average of 2.44 Damage per Wound after damage is halved
Wounding hits out of melta range deal an average of 2 after damage is halved.

If Nullzone goes off, the Telemon receives no save (invul negated and AP5 negates 2+ Armour) meaning that it in melta range the Dreadnought would take 5.4*2.44 damage - which translates to roughly 13 wounds (13.176). But let us not forget the librarians Combi-melta which would achieve an additional (.75*.75*2.44) 1.3725 damage - giving us an average of 14.5 damage total. Pretty close to 15 wounds. If the eradicators are outside melta range this damage drops to 12 damage total.

If nullzone fails to go off then wounding hits are essentially halved to 1.2 and 1.5 for a total of 2.7 failed saves - 6.5 Damage from the eradicators, combined with half of the libby's damage puts us at a total of 7.27 damage putting it near a bracket.

The same scenario out of melta range deals ~ 6.7 damage total (Librarian still counted in melta range, due to a failed nullzone attempt)

If the librarian was dropped for an additional Eradicator squad (freeing up 5 points in the process) then that is a total of 7.8 wounding hits total - halved down to 3.9 unsaved wounds for 9.5 damage in melta range or ~ 8 damage outside of melta.


Interesting data. One thing to be understood is that these dice rolls can be pretty swingy due to gating, If the warden (an extra CP expenditure on what, 4 or 5 at this point? and how many additional points for the character) and fails to stop a successfully cast nullzone the dreadnought is potentially dead that turn. If Nullzone does fail, the combined crew still puts a significant hurt on it.

Or in other words, probably one of the tankiest models in existence right now and eradicators still achieve a near 50% RoI in the worst conditions.

Anyways, feel free to check over my math - I probably got something wrong somewhere



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:


I never saw that in my marine book and I've been playing them for years, what was it called?


Duty Eternal - 1 CP to half damage to your dreadnoughts. Was recently changed to be -1 damage instead. My boxnaughts were saddened that day. Especially when they gave it to sentinels >.>

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/15 02:29:12


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Isn't Nullzone 6"?

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Isn't Nullzone 6"?


Yes, but with a JP its pretty easy to get into range - I've had no issue in 8th getting him into range. In 9th it seems way easier as well.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Vilehydra wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Isn't Nullzone 6"?


Yes, but with a JP its pretty easy to get into range - I've had no issue in 8th getting him into range. In 9th it seems way easier as well.


That would mean Eradicators have to be something like 15" away though for him to still have character protection. Unless something else provides that, but then we're getting to deep into a simulation with too many variables.


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Eradicators are too cheap. They are a bad "fix" to melta. They aren't invincible, but monsters/vehicles without invulns need not apply.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 02:58:05


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Vilehydra wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Isn't Nullzone 6"?


Yes, but with a JP its pretty easy to get into range - I've had no issue in 8th getting him into range. In 9th it seems way easier as well.


That would mean Eradicators have to be something like 15" away though for him to still have character protection. Unless something else provides that, but then we're getting to deep into a simulation with too many variables.



Yeah, that's why I put it W/O Nullzone as well. Or just swapping it out for more eradicators, which are more reliable in this case, but don't spike it as hard. I also ignored other factors like smite or relics for the librarian
   
Made in de
Rough Rider with Boomstick






Some pretty weird thing that came to my mind when recalculating the points in my list:
I have the impression that one of the best bets of a vehicle when facing Eradicators would be trying to charge them.
1. they cannot shoot in CC, a vehicle can
2. if they fall back next turn, they cannot shoot
3. they have to pay command points to overwatch you and even if they do, getting shot with BS6+ meltas is still preferable to getting shot by BS3+
4. while not bad in CC for an infantry unit they should have a hard time killing a vehicle in the fight Phase

That might be especially true for things like Scout Sentinels that are pretty cheap, pretty expendable and relatively fast. Even more so as Tallarn were they can Scout move (9''), move (9''), advance (average 3.5''), fire their weapon, then charge with "Crush them" stratagem.

~3100 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Pyroalchi wrote:

3. they have to pay command points to overwatch you and even if they do, getting shot with BS6+ meltas is still preferable to getting shot by BS3+


Though you'll be in a really precarious situation already they also only shoot 3 times on O/W. It'd be better to use cheap-o infantry. For all the bluster about S4 AP0 attacks it would take eliminators a long time to punch through simple guardsmen.

I think people will still find it unbalanced as Eradicators are still a bargain at 120, so tossing 50 points to tie it up for a turn or two might feel bad, but not if you had a meltagun!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 13:42:19


   
Made in de
Rough Rider with Boomstick






Sure, infantry is even better. I meant it more in the line of "if you are a vehicle facing some Eradicators, you might as well charge".

Or alternatively if you want to go vehicle heavy it might be not the worst strategy to use your cheapest to charge them, if you can
A Scout sentinel is 35-50 points, so the cheaper than an infantry squad and more likely to make a turn one charge.

~3100 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If you're in a position to shoot eradicators, you're probably fine: just shoot them. They will die. Not as easily as they should compared to everything else, but these are Primaris, we need to accept they're just going to be better than everything else because that's what Primaris are all about. Hero faction and all that.

The issue is that they are so undercosted that, unlike pretty much any other anti-tank infantry, they only need to get off one round of shooting to make back their points if they can shoot at a good target. And then that, while you can kill them after that first volley, they do actually take a fair amount of firepower to put down.

So they are not only better at making back their points before getting wiped off the table, they're also better at forcing you to commit to wipe them off the table once they reveal themselves. It's the Primaris Problem in a nutshell. They're just better at everything than other equivalents in other factions.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




yukishiro1 wrote:
If you're in a position to shoot eradicators, you're probably fine: just shoot them. They will die. Not as easily as they should compared to everything else, but these are Primaris, we need to accept they're just going to be better than everything else because that's what Primaris are all about. Hero faction and all that.

The issue is that they are so undercosted that, unlike pretty much any other anti-tank infantry, they only need to get off one round of shooting to make back their points if they can shoot at a good target. And then that, while you can kill them after that first volley, they do actually take a fair amount of firepower to put down.

So they are not only better at making back their points before getting wiped off the table, they're also better at forcing you to commit to wipe them off the table once they reveal themselves. It's the Primaris Problem in a nutshell. They're just better at everything than other equivalents in other factions.


I agree with everything else you said but still hate that first paragraph. Historically, only intercessors have been consistently competitive. At launch the entire primaris force was a joke. Pre the first chapter approved mono-primaris armies were utter, utter trash. Arguably the worst mono army in the game. Hellblasters saw a glimpse of viability early on but got left behind. Inceptors were TERRIBLE at launch and took 2 round of buffs to even see the plasma version as a tech choice in some lists(admittedly with the massive drop they got seemingly out of nowhere for 9th they'll be all over but before this they weren't popular), impulsors are only good now thanks to the change in rules for 9th, they were incredibly mediocre before, repulsors and repulsor executioners were a major meta threat for like 3 weeks when they could get 5+ invuls and IH damage reduction but have been pretty terrible otherwise. Eliminators dropped OP AF but that was the exception not the rule, the new indomitus units are fine, nothing spectacular except for Eradicators who are clearly above the curve. Even the bikes are just 'pretty good'. Suppressors had like 10 minutes as a popular choice but that was such a narrow timeframe I legit forgot about them. Incursors are meh, infiltrators are meh, reivers are very meh, the redemptor and the invictor are both good but get overshadowed by the Forgeworld dread(ESPECIALLY Chaplain dreads) Agressors got to be crazy because GW forgot that 'Stratagem that lets you infiltrate+ an extra 3" range on flamers+Double shooting=holy gak' and even THEN Assault Centurions were still better at the same job.

Now back on topic. Eradicators are clearly too strong, especially when compared to other equivalent units. the fact that in salamanders they can go completely insane in turn 2 and 3 is not helping anything. I didn't even know sallies had that as their super doctrine, I just knew they had the best CT for sending eradicators in unsupported.

Eradicators are a unit that has easy access to reroll to hit, reroll ones to wound, +1AP, +1 to wound,etc. The fact that they're still your best option for a melta unit even when they don't have ANY of those buffs, is insane. Melta dominions, after going DOWN a net 2 points per model are 110 points for 1 less shot, 12" less range, 4 less wounds, 2 less toughness, and all of their CQC stats.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: