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Space Marine players really are playing a different game from the rest of us.

 Irbis wrote:
I like how headless chicken doomsaying from the start of this thread claiming these guys will cost 20-30 points had been proven completely wrong, just like objective people said it would, but that didn't result in one single apology or retraction, just goalpost shifting. Bravo

I just went through the first three pages and saw not a single person suggesting they would be under 30 points.

Look people. 13 ppw is way too cheap for a unit with these capabiliites. Especially on 3W bodies because they can't be aced by 2 damage weapons. I want melta to be fearsome more than most, but this is not the way.

 Irbis wrote:
Let's see, poor, underpowered xenos:

Tau commander with 4x Fusion costs 36.25 per BS 2+ shot (effectively 1+ with stratagem, so autohit), can deep strike, add 2+ armour upgrade (or 'move whole table' one), has access to broken drones and tons of special rules, and does a lot more besides - we heard endless times how it's totes balanced bro and complains this weak unit has pointless limit set on it. Now that SM get something barely comparable (except less accurate, very slow, can't deep strike, negate dozens of shots, or do any other broken Tau stuff) and suddenly sky is falling and somehow this Schrödinger unit is simultaneously at the back, where buffer characters are, and in the front, where enemy targets are, superpositing everywhere on the table with its mighty waddling speed to fire everywhere at once even though it can't split fire. Maybe GW should give them 60 inch move, 2+ armour, auras, drones, relics, the works, because then they will somehow be totally balanced and any limits to taking them would be needlessly oppressing poor army, eh?

A Tau commander with four fusion blasters now costs 145pts minimum in 9th, putting it at 20% more expensive than a squad of Eradicators while having 67% the shots. Even accounting for its 2+ BS, it averages only 83% the hits, making it only about two-thirds as efficient as Eradicators. If it drops in for a suicide attack, it is unlikely to make its points back.

It also has 5 T5 3+ wounds, as opposed to the Eradicators' 9 T5 3+ wounds spread across three models, so it's considerably easier to kill. Start adding shield drones or Iridium armor and watch the cost soar and efficiency plummet further.

Also, it's also limited to one per detachment.

Also, those Commanders are generally accepted as by far one of the best units in the entire Tau codex, so if that's the baseline then it says volumes about the comparison.

But yeah thanks for your sarcastic post. Between the spurious claim that people were expecting 20-30pts and this curious take on fusion commanders, I'm convinced. We just need to elevate everything else up to this level of reliably killing its own points in one turn, and then I'm sure we'll have a great game. Or at least short ones.

kryczek wrote:
Should've said a primaris army. In that context the eradicators are the only dedicated infantry AT. I forget firstborn even exist now but that's another story.

Thats because Marines have become a vastly bloated range that few people can even remember just how many options that they now have.

There was a design principle for a long time that certain armies intentionally lacked certain capabilities to provide different play experiences.

This was most obvious in WFB (no bows, crossbows for chaos, no cav for dwarves), but the stuck with it with 40k for a long time as well. You can still see it with the eldar to some degree, with high specialization and (mostly) a lack of durability.

At the beginning, it looked like primaris were going the same way (very set roles), but at this point they've filled in pretty much everything.

Jack and Master of all Trades has a bad look..

Eldar Firedragons are superior points cost wise to these new Eradicators. Sure the Eradicators are tough, but Firedragons laugh at them cause we get way more shots for much cheaper out of our flying almost invincible waveserpent that can strike at any unit on the board on turn 2.

Please, Eradicators are good for the points cost, but lets be honest, there are worse units to complain about being OP. Its just a shiny new model, once people play a few games they will get used to them and realize you need to kill anything that has great AT capability if you dont want those 2 D6 damage roles in your face.

Firedragons are 23 points a piece. 6 are 138 points. Thats 6 shots

Eradicators have 6 shots for 120.

So... no. Not cheaper or more shots. And far less range. And fewer wounds. And significantly more fragile.

Voss wrote:
Firedragons are 23 points a piece. 6 are 138 points. Thats 6 shots

Eradicators have 6 shots for 120.

So... no. Not cheaper or more shots. And far less range.

And an impulsor is about as capable of moving the Eradicators around as the Waveserpent is the Fire Dragons, except they can do it turn 1 since they can disembark after moving.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Eldar Firedragons are superior points cost wise to these new Eradicators. Sure the Eradicators are tough, but Firedragons laugh at them cause we get way more shots for much cheaper out of our flying almost invincible waveserpent that can strike at any unit on the board on turn 2.

Please, Eradicators are good for the points cost, but lets be honest, there are worse units to complain about being OP. Its just a shiny new model, once people play a few games they will get used to them and realize you need to kill anything that has great AT capability if you dont want those 2 D6 damage roles in your face.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Fire Dragons are 115 for 5, right? Which get 5 Melta Shots at 12".

So, for five more points, you get...

+1 Shot
+12" range
+4 Wounds
+2 Toughness


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Voss wrote:
Firedragons are 23 points a piece. 6 are 138 points. Thats 6 shots

Eradicators have 6 shots for 120.

So... no. Not cheaper or more shots. And far less range.

And an impulsor is about as capable of moving the Eradicators around as the Waveserpent is the Fire Dragons, except they can do it turn 1 since they can disembark after moving.

This however, is inaccurate. Impulsors can't transport Gravis models.

Not that they need transport at 24" range, but you're wrong here, Unit.

Aha. Space Marine Transport Tetris strikes again!

Seriously, map who and what can and can't be transported by various space marine vehicles visually. Its a hilarious mess

Oh, yup, you're right.

You know, as someone who doesn't play SM, I find the transport things awfully confusing.

Ugh. I just realized Fire Dragon exarchs (and probably some of the other exarchs) are an extra drag on their units now. Most of their 'unique' weapons still have to be paid for.

With the base cost of the units going up and the base weapon going to zero, that really hurts. You're effectively paying for a non-existent fusion gun and then the fire pike too (which is wildly overpriced at 15).

Saying this as a Salamander player.

Elims are pretty broken right now, but the fix wouldn't be that hard. Change the doubleshoot rule to either -

- If all models shoot at the same target then they always count as in melta range

or

- If all models shoot at the same target then a damage roll of a 1 or a 2 for attacks made with the melta-rifle are counted as 3.

Then propagate this rule to all melta-specialist units (Firedragons come to mind, but not scion squads or other versatile units)

The change reduces the maximum damage that the eradicators can put out, while still making them more reliable at their job. It also solves the problem of them being excellent elite killers by reducing maximum model loss to 3.

Vilehydra wrote:
Saying this as a Salamander player.

Elims are pretty broken right now, but the fix wouldn't be that hard. Change the doubleshoot rule to either -

- If all models shoot at the same target then they always count as in melta range

or

- If all models shoot at the same target then a damage roll of a 1 or a 2 for attacks made with the melta-rifle are counted as 3.

Then propagate this rule to all melta-specialist units (Firedragons come to mind, but not scion squads or other versatile units)

The change reduces the maximum damage that the eradicators can put out, while still making them more reliable at their job. It also solves the problem of them being excellent elite killers by reducing maximum model loss to 3.

I was thinking that you could fix them just by changing the double-shoot restriction to be the same as Aggressors (stand still for double shots), so that they would have the same tradeoff.

I think those proposed ideas might be a bit too weak- the melta bonus goes from 3.5 to 4.5 damage average, and the min-3 just changes the average from 3.5 to 4. More importantly, both diminish the impact of range, which I think works against their design principle of being most lethal at close range.

Maybe just re-roll wounds if they all target the same unit. It'd be most useful against high-T things, as melta should be.

Voss wrote:
Ugh. I just realized Fire Dragon exarchs (and probably some of the other exarchs) are an extra drag on their units now. Most of their 'unique' weapons still have to be paid for.

With the base cost of the units going up and the base weapon going to zero, that really hurts. You're effectively paying for a non-existent fusion gun and then the fire pike too (which is wildly overpriced at 15).

I believe it is FIRE DRAGON keyword so the Exarch pays 0.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Ugh. I just realized Fire Dragon exarchs (and probably some of the other exarchs) are an extra drag on their units now. Most of their 'unique' weapons still have to be paid for.

With the base cost of the units going up and the base weapon going to zero, that really hurts. You're effectively paying for a non-existent fusion gun and then the fire pike too (which is wildly overpriced at 15).

I believe it is FIRE DRAGON keyword so the Exarch pays 0.

Is GW giving different points costs for different units wielding the same weapon?

But they're still sticking with points costs in the back of the book?

Good lord.

There are a million things they could have done that weren't as pants-on-head stupid as "fire twice if everyone fires at the same target," which is barely a restriction at all.

Fire twice if they stay still, fire twice if within 9", reroll wounds if they fire at the same target, +1 damage to each shot if they all fire at the same target...we could go on for ages here.

Instead, they did one of the few things that was absolutely mental. Gee-dubs strikes again.

Not sure how explicit to go on points but unless I've miscounted somewhere:

IH Brigade.
Primaris Captain - 90 points.
Primaris Leuitenant - 75 points.
Feirros - 140 points.
Primaris Apothecary: 60.
Invictor: 165
Invictor: 165
4*5 Intercessors=400.
2*5 Scouts=140
3*3 Eradicators:360.
3*3 Outriders: 405

Total: 2000.

Invictors+Outriders can go fairly deep into your opponents half turn 1 if they insist on backlining, or be kept back for a counter-punch if they try to grab the centre. If they make it to the mid-game, excellent, go claim objectives.
Meanwhile your character ball+eradicators+intercessors blobs up and shuffle on to those central objectives, and rely on excellent damage+survivability to keep on ticking over.

Sort of hurts my sense of completeness, but you'd probably shave off the Primaris status from the characters to afford things like camo cloaks on the scouts.

There's more things you could do to play with this - but I'm sort of drawing a blank on where its *bad*.

yukishiro1 wrote:
There are a million things they could have done that weren't as pants-on-head stupid as "fire twice if everyone fires at the same target," which is barely a restriction at all.

Fire twice if they stay still, fire twice if within 9", reroll wounds if they fire at the same target, +1 damage to each shot if they all fire at the same target...we could go on for ages here.

Instead, they did one of the few things that was absolutely mental. Gee-dubs strikes again.

About as mental as the rebalance all running around the a number divisible by 5?

makine whole aresenal of weapons go from Maybee, to meh, to instantly NOPE?

Tyel wrote:
Not sure how explicit to go on points but unless I've miscounted somewhere:

IH Brigade.
Primaris Captain - 90 points.
Primaris Leuitenant - 75 points.
Feirros - 140 points.
Primaris Apothecary: 60.
Invictor: 165
Invictor: 165
4*5 Intercessors=400.
2*5 Scouts=140
3*3 Eradicators:360.
3*3 Outriders: 405

Total: 2000.

Invictors+Outriders can go fairly deep into your opponents half turn 1 if they insist on backlining, or be kept back for a counter-punch if they try to grab the centre. If they make it to the mid-game, excellent, go claim objectives.
Meanwhile your character ball+eradicators+intercessors blobs up and shuffle on to those central objectives, and rely on excellent damage+survivability to keep on ticking over.

Sort of hurts my sense of completeness, but you'd probably shave off the Primaris status from the characters to afford things like camo cloaks on the scouts.

There's more things you could do to play with this - but I'm sort of drawing a blank on where its *bad*.

You might struggle against Hordes. Then again, Intercessors can have up to 3 shots each, your Invictors can have 2d6 flamer shots, the Outriders have tons of dakka and melee...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Ugh. I just realized Fire Dragon exarchs (and probably some of the other exarchs) are an extra drag on their units now. Most of their 'unique' weapons still have to be paid for.

With the base cost of the units going up and the base weapon going to zero, that really hurts. You're effectively paying for a non-existent fusion gun and then the fire pike too (which is wildly overpriced at 15).

I believe it is FIRE DRAGON keyword so the Exarch pays 0.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The entry I saw just says '15'
Is there a hidden exception somewhere else? Because that just adds another layer of annoyance to the incessant page flipping that back-of-the-book points brought us with 8th.

 JNAProductions wrote:

You might struggle against Hordes. Then again, Intercessors can have up to 3 shots each, your Invictors can have 2d6 flamer shots, the Outriders have tons of dakka and melee...

Not many hordes left though. Ork will definitely stay away from hordes and killing 90ish orks in 2-3 turns wouldn't be a big deal anyway with a list like that.

 Blackie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

You might struggle against Hordes. Then again, Intercessors can have up to 3 shots each, your Invictors can have 2d6 flamer shots, the Outriders have tons of dakka and melee...

Not many hordes left though. Ork will definitely stay away from hordes and killing 90ish orks in 2-3 turns wouldn't be a big deal anyway with a list like that.

True. Very true.

Just delete the Eradicator special rule and make it a 1 CP Strat - as it should be.

I could see Imperial Guard still try it. Sure, it's not the most competetive, but IG infantry barely went up and with the new cheaper plasma and meltas I could see them still pulling of really model heavy lists.

Edit: I mean "high number of models"

 Mr Morden wrote:
Just delete the Eradicator special rule and make it a 1 CP Strat - as it should be.

The strat would be limited to them?

I Like it.

But ,that would Make Sense...

 catbarf wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
Saying this as a Salamander player.

Elims are pretty broken right now, but the fix wouldn't be that hard. Change the doubleshoot rule to either -

- If all models shoot at the same target then they always count as in melta range

or

- If all models shoot at the same target then a damage roll of a 1 or a 2 for attacks made with the melta-rifle are counted as 3.

Then propagate this rule to all melta-specialist units (Firedragons come to mind, but not scion squads or other versatile units)

The change reduces the maximum damage that the eradicators can put out, while still making them more reliable at their job. It also solves the problem of them being excellent elite killers by reducing maximum model loss to 3.

I was thinking that you could fix them just by changing the double-shoot restriction to be the same as Aggressors (stand still for double shots), so that they would have the same tradeoff.

I think those proposed ideas might be a bit too weak- the melta bonus goes from 3.5 to 4.5 damage average, and the min-3 just changes the average from 3.5 to 4. More importantly, both diminish the impact of range, which I think works against their design principle of being most lethal at close range.

Maybe just re-roll wounds if they all target the same unit. It'd be most useful against high-T things, as melta should be.

Fair point on diminishing the range for the double dice - but a guaranteed minimum of 3 damage is not to be understated. It may only boost the average slightly, but a guaranteed 3 damage is a big deal. I don't like rerolls because marines already have too many rerolls as is. Standing still is neither dynamic nor fun. People will still go for double dice at half range as well - 9 damage falls short for a lot of vehicles. Increasing the chance that you roll a 5 or 6 on damage is still worthwhile in many cases.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Just delete the Eradicator special rule and make it a 1 CP Strat - as it should be.

The strat would be limited to them?

I Like it.

But ,that would Make Sense...

yep and sadly ....yep.....

Voss wrote:
There was a design principle for a long time that certain armies intentionally lacked certain capabilities to provide different play experiences.

This was most obvious in WFB (no bows, crossbows for chaos, no cav for dwarves), but the stuck with it with 40k for a long time as well. You can still see it with the eldar to some degree, with high specialization and (mostly) a lack of durability.

At the beginning, it looked like primaris were going the same way (very set roles), but at this point they've filled in pretty much everything.

Jack and Master of all Trades has a bad look..

Yes, but GW never implemented these differences well. Eldar being fragile just means they die before doing anything meaningful. Unless they're scatter bikes with jink saves, or 7th ed. WKs. This is what happens when they insist on providing such a narrow range of mechanics and gameplay. Picking targets and shooting/punching until the game ends doesn't have much design space. One of many reasons why 40k needs a full rewrite, and reexamination at the conceptual level.