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Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

I guess we will juts have to wait for the inevtiable errata to sort this totally broken unit out as they had to do with Iron Hands and so many others.

I wonder if playtesters were ignored about these, did not see them or were simply not doing their job as anyone with any sense of balance looking at them for more than 2 seconds knows that they are both hugely overpowered and bad for the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 10:09:51


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I suspect they were play tested without the free double shooting as decribed and not really worth it.

Then someones bright idea to fix them was more shots but never actually checked what that does when you have full rerolls and rerolling wounds as some how GW doesn't get that marine's play as a death bubble of rerolls upon rerolls.
   
Made in fr
Elite Tyranid Warrior



France

Ice_can wrote:
I suspect they were play tested without the free double shooting as decribed and not really worth it.

Then someones bright idea to fix them was more shots but never actually checked what that does when you have full rerolls and rerolling wounds as some how GW doesn't get that marine's play as a death bubble of rerolls upon rerolls.

The double shooting is too easy to pull out, they should be unable to move too or something like that. And cost a bit more.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

WhiteDog wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
I suspect they were play tested without the free double shooting as decribed and not really worth it.

Then someones bright idea to fix them was more shots but never actually checked what that does when you have full rerolls and rerolling wounds as some how GW doesn't get that marine's play as a death bubble of rerolls upon rerolls.

The double shooting is too easy to pull out, they should be unable to move too or something like that. And cost a bit more.


or like normal units it is a Strat

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
I suspect they were play tested without the free double shooting as decribed and not really worth it.

Then someones bright idea to fix them was more shots but never actually checked what that does when you have full rerolls and rerolling wounds as some how GW doesn't get that marine's play as a death bubble of rerolls upon rerolls.

The double shooting is too easy to pull out, they should be unable to move too or something like that. And cost a bit more.


or like normal units it is a Strat


Like the one that singularly hiked the price on a lot of CSM units and required them all to be slaanesh?
Well it would be fairer.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





This unit is beyond dumb.

I would rate it as more OP than anything we had in 8th, at least the bad stuff there required you to combine multiple interactions. Even the Castellan was good only under certain traits and stratagems.
But this... this is 7th Eldar level of idiocy. These things are ultra dumb already on the datasheet, before even starting to optimize them.

I guess that it is a good thing that tournaments are a no go for a while.
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Meanwhile I realized that with the a bit strange point shuffling, IG can now bring similar Meltaoutput for the same cost, yet still shorter ranged and much more squishy:

Eradicators: 40 Points for 2 BS 3 shots => 30 points/hit
SWS with 3 meltaguns: 45 points for 3 BS4 shots => 30 points/hit
Command Squad with 4 Meltaguns: 64 Points for 4 BS 3 shots: 24 points/hit

But as noted... those a T3 5+ meatbags and they only have 12'' range.

~3700 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
Alternatively, you could adapt your tactics and not put 400-500 points worth of monsters and vehicles right 24" away from three full Eradicator squads.

I get you, they are very good for their points and can easily make back their points and more. But you are not helpless and have to take the pounding without defending yourself.


Sure, but having to stay 30 (6" move)+D6" inches (after all, you might as well gamble on an advance if the alternative is shooting nothing") is not insignificant - especially in an objective based game where holding the centre ground is likely to be very important.
You can LOS block, but you probably can't LOS block everything.

Since vehicles no longer pay a heavy weapon penalty for moving, arguably back-lining them and moving up turn 1 is less of a penalty than it was, but it is potentially going to mean surrendering the centre for 2 turns. Seems like a bad idea if the Marine player can then go ham on the primary.

Generally "you have to kill this turn 1 or lose" datasheets are bad for the game, and don't produce interesting, dynamic, interactive games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 12:12:58


 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:

Sure, but having to stay 30 (6" move)+D6" inches (after all, you might as well gamble on an advance if the alternative is shooting nothing") is not insignificant - especially in an objective based game where holding the centre ground is likely to be very important.
You can LOS block, but you probably can't LOS block everything.

Since vehicles no longer pay a heavy weapon penalty for moving, arguably back-lining them and moving up turn 1 is less of a penalty than it was, but it is potentially going to mean surrendering the centre for 2 turns. Seems like a bad idea if the Marine player can then go ham on the primary.

Generally "you have to kill this turn 1 or lose" datasheets are bad for the game, and don't produce interesting, dynamic, interactive games.

Completely agree. Eradicators and some other units should be toned down to a more even level to create a more interesting game for all participants.
I wanted to discuss the point that the existance of Eradicators is not the end for all casual games against Marines.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





it isn't but like in the past with obliterators, when they still had weapons and not a wierd profile (but now even more because shock drop alpha striking isn't fun for all involved imo)

There's a really fine line between these units beeing to effective and not effective enough.

Now however a lot of units have gained movement shenanigans that arguably shouldn't have with the new reserve rules.

If these couldn't do that, they'd still be a nuisannce but a much much smaller one, with a strong Deal with this or else tag attached.
With the reserve rule for 1 Cp infiltrating 2 of these is basically like reliable obliterators but more against big targets.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gr
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

Not Online!!! wrote:
it isn't but like in the past with obliterators, when they still had weapons and not a wierd profile (but now even more because shock drop alpha striking isn't fun for all involved imo)

There's a really fine line between these units beeing to effective and not effective enough.

Now however a lot of units have gained movement shenanigans that arguably shouldn't have with the new reserve rules.

If these couldn't do that, they'd still be a nuisannce but a much much smaller one, with a strong Deal with this or else tag attached.
With the reserve rule for 1 Cp infiltrating 2 of these is basically like reliable obliterators but more against big targets.


Except 2 of them cost a lot less than 1 obliterator, they shoot the same number of shots, with oblit's average strength, then they have better ap, double damage (and double damage with reroll within half range), they are faster, they have more wounds. Sounds about fair.

14000
15000
4000 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





an oblit is going to be 105 pts and i agree as a chaos player, they make the biggest meanis chaos ever had look like amateurs.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot




Scotland

Aren't the eradicators just aggressors really? They're nasty, no doubt about it, but not all that IMHO. When taken in context of the army they fill a much needed role and points will probably be about right which we'll see over time.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

kryczek wrote:
Aren't the eradicators just aggressors really? They're nasty, no doubt about it, but not all that IMHO. When taken in context of the army they fill a much needed role and points will probably be about right which we'll see over time.
Were SM really lacking in anti-tank, what with Devastators, Hellblasters, Executioner Repulsors, Dreadnoughts, Invictors...

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 JNAProductions wrote:
kryczek wrote:
Aren't the eradicators just aggressors really? They're nasty, no doubt about it, but not all that IMHO. When taken in context of the army they fill a much needed role and points will probably be about right which we'll see over time.
Were SM really lacking in anti-tank, what with Devastators, Hellblasters, Executioner Repulsors, Dreadnoughts, Invictors...


they lacked the specific yeeter of enemy armor.
the coup de grace so to speak-

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Not Online!!! wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
kryczek wrote:
Aren't the eradicators just aggressors really? They're nasty, no doubt about it, but not all that IMHO. When taken in context of the army they fill a much needed role and points will probably be about right which we'll see over time.
Were SM really lacking in anti-tank, what with Devastators, Hellblasters, Executioner Repulsors, Dreadnoughts, Invictors...


they lacked the specific yeeter of enemy armor.
the coup de grace so to speak-
I mean, when Chaos (outside of a Forgeworld unit that might not be here in 9th), Nids, and Orks don't even have snipers, I'm finding it hard to feel for Space Marines complaining they lack... pretty much anything.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 JNAProductions wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
kryczek wrote:
Aren't the eradicators just aggressors really? They're nasty, no doubt about it, but not all that IMHO. When taken in context of the army they fill a much needed role and points will probably be about right which we'll see over time.
Were SM really lacking in anti-tank, what with Devastators, Hellblasters, Executioner Repulsors, Dreadnoughts, Invictors...


they lacked the specific yeeter of enemy armor.
the coup de grace so to speak-
I mean, when Chaos (outside of a Forgeworld unit that might not be here in 9th), Nids, and Orks don't even have snipers, I'm finding it hard to feel for Space Marines complaining they lack... pretty much anything.


T'was a joke, heavy AT SM had allready in over abundance.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





sanguine40k wrote:

No invulnerable is only an issue if you can shoot at them before they shoot you. Between them being a 3 model unit (so fairly easy to conceal behind obscuring terrain) and the option to put them in strategic reserve (I believe you can put two units in for 1cp?), It's going to be real hard to drop them before they get at least 1 round of shooting off.

As to split fire - why the gak would you want to?! Remember, there's no kill like overkill, but more importantly the probabilities on 1 shot doing anything are far too swingy for split fire to be worth it.


You can easily determine their effective range. If they're behind cover then they're not on the line, which means I have more room for avoidance.

Fast armies will screen out the board edges and keep them out of the mix for longer and that is much easier to do with a smaller table. So you'll be setting them up in their own DZ usually -- and that means wholly w/i 6" of your own edge.

They're definitely going to get shots off and earn their points back most games though.


   
Made in gb
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot




Scotland

Should've said a primaris army. In that context the eradicators are the only dedicated infantry AT. I forget firstborn even exist now but that's another story.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

kryczek wrote:
Should've said a primaris army. In that context the eradicators are the only dedicated infantry AT. I forget firstborn even exist now but that's another story.
You know, I've been told that I'm gimping myself when I play Daemons for only taking Nurgle Daemons. Something that makes sense-and the main things to fill my weakness of ranged damage is Tzeentch (though they're not that good at it, really) which is most distinctly UNFLUFFY.

So excuse me for not feeling bad that your army that ignores half the Codex is lacking specifically INFANTRY-based ranged anti-tank. Because you still have Invictors. You still have Repulsor Executioners. You still have Redemptors.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

kryczek wrote:
Should've said a primaris army. In that context the eradicators are the only dedicated infantry AT. I forget firstborn even exist now but that's another story.


You have a plethora of choices in your codex for infantry anti-tank, choose to ignore them, and then feel you need literally the best anti-tank infantry in the game because the half of the codex you've chosen merely has a variety of excellent non-infantry anti-tank options?

When do you suppose Chaos, Tyranids, or Orks will get snipers of any kind?
   
Made in gr
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

Red Terror best sniper in the game. You only need screening, terrain, a way to make it past screens, a way to make it into combat, a way to strike first, and roll that 6 on the swallow whole rule and POW! You can't even eat a primaris character.

14000
15000
4000 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





I like how headless chicken doomsaying from the start of this thread claiming these guys will cost 20-30 points had been proven completely wrong, just like objective people said it would, but that didn't result in one single apology or retraction, just goalpost shifting. Bravo

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because you still have Invictors. You still have Repulsor Executioners. You still have Redemptors.

Ah, yes, Invictors. I had no idea heavy flamers are AT weapons now. Or did you mean the scary stubbers/autocannon? Please, if that is AT to you, then grots are superheavy infantry. Ditto for redemptors, single plasma cannon on a platform that expensive is laughable example of AT, especially seeing no one even took it, nor will they now because blast weapon changes killed the point of a gun on semi-melee platform. Unless you consider that gatling AT gun, if so, are you also selling bridges on Terra?

As for repulsor, yes, it can be given AT gun, but then you need multiple expensive, superheavy tanks that don't fit most armies, pay for transport capacity despite needing to not move, tanks that can easily be countered or played around, all in all, if your idea of a faction balance is telling its players to spam the biggest, stupidly expensive models they might not want (or completely wrong information like telling them Invictor is AT platform) then I don't know what to tell you. Besides being glad you will never dictate balance because I despise biggest, baddest bandaid model spam and prefer actual balance. Like, you know, having multiple fluffy options.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Meanwhile I realized that with the a bit strange point shuffling, IG can now bring similar Meltaoutput for the same cost, yet still shorter ranged and much more squishy:

Eradicators: 40 Points for 2 BS 3 shots => 30 points/hit
SWS with 3 meltaguns: 45 points for 3 BS4 shots => 30 points/hit
Command Squad with 4 Meltaguns: 64 Points for 4 BS 3 shots: 24 points/hit

But as noted... those a T3 5+ meatbags and they only have 12'' range.

Let's see, poor, underpowered xenos:

Tau commander with 4x Fusion costs 36.25 per BS 2+ shot (effectively 1+ with stratagem, so autohit), can deep strike, add 2+ armour upgrade (or 'move whole table' one), has access to broken drones and tons of special rules, and does a lot more besides - we heard endless times how it's totes balanced bro and complains this weak unit has pointless limit set on it. Now that SM get something barely comparable (except less accurate, very slow, can't deep strike, negate dozens of shots, or do any other broken Tau stuff) and suddenly sky is falling and somehow this Schrödinger unit is simultaneously at the back, where buffer characters are, and in the front, where enemy targets are, superpositing everywhere on the table with its mighty waddling speed to fire everywhere at once even though it can't split fire. Maybe GW should give them 60 inch move, 2+ armour, auras, drones, relics, the works, because then they will somehow be totally balanced and any limits to taking them would be needlessly oppressing poor army, eh?
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Irbis wrote:
I like how headless chicken doomsaying from the start of this thread claiming these guys will cost 20-30 points had been proven completely wrong, just like objective people said it would, but that didn't result in one single apology or retraction, just goalpost shifting. Bravo

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because you still have Invictors. You still have Repulsor Executioners. You still have Redemptors.

Ah, yes, Invictors. I had no idea heavy flamers are AT weapons now. Or did you mean the scary stubbers/autocannon? Please, if that is AT to you, then grots are superheavy infantry. Ditto for redemptors, single plasma cannon on a platform that expensive is laughable example of AT, especially seeing no one even took it, nor will they now because blast weapon changes killed the point of a gun on semi-melee platform. Unless you consider that gatling AT gun, if so, are you also selling bridges on Terra?

As for repulsor, yes, it can be given AT gun, but then you need multiple expensive, superheavy tanks that don't fit most armies, pay for transport capacity despite needing to not move, tanks that can easily be countered or played around, all in all, if your idea of a faction balance is telling its players to spam the biggest, stupidly expensive models they might not want (or completely wrong information like telling them Invictor is AT platform) then I don't know what to tell you. Besides being glad you will never dictate balance because I despise biggest, baddest bandaid model spam and prefer actual balance. Like, you know, having multiple fluffy options.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Meanwhile I realized that with the a bit strange point shuffling, IG can now bring similar Meltaoutput for the same cost, yet still shorter ranged and much more squishy:

Eradicators: 40 Points for 2 BS 3 shots => 30 points/hit
SWS with 3 meltaguns: 45 points for 3 BS4 shots => 30 points/hit
Command Squad with 4 Meltaguns: 64 Points for 4 BS 3 shots: 24 points/hit

But as noted... those a T3 5+ meatbags and they only have 12'' range.

Let's see, poor, underpowered xenos:

Tau commander with 4x Fusion costs 36.25 per BS 2+ shot (effectively 1+ with stratagem, so autohit), can deep strike, add 2+ armour upgrade (or 'move whole table' one), has access to broken drones and tons of special rules, and does a lot more besides - we heard endless times how it's totes balanced bro and complains this weak unit has pointless limit set on it. Now that SM get something barely comparable (except less accurate, very slow, can't deep strike, negate dozens of shots, or do any other broken Tau stuff) and suddenly sky is falling and somehow this Schrödinger unit is simultaneously at the back, where buffer characters are, and in the front, where enemy targets are, superpositing everywhere on the table with its mighty waddling speed to fire everywhere at once even though it can't split fire. Maybe GW should give them 60 inch move, 2+ armour, auras, drones, relics, the works, because then they will somehow be totally balanced and any limits to taking them would be needlessly oppressing poor army, eh?
So what's that S12 (or is it higher than that?) flat 3 damage fist doing?

Also, Coldstar Commander can't take four fusions. Only the base one can-not to mention, they're one per detachment because they were considered too good.

So yes, a unit that gets cheaper Melta shots (30 points per HIT) with a better range and similar durability... Yeah, that's REAL FLIPPING GOOD.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Irbis wrote:

Let's see, poor, underpowered xenos:

Tau commander with 4x Fusion costs 36.25 per BS 2+ shot (effectively 1+ with stratagem, so autohit), can deep strike, add 2+ armour upgrade (or 'move whole table' one), has access to broken drones and tons of special rules, and does a lot more besides - we heard endless times how it's totes balanced bro and complains this weak unit has pointless limit set on it. Now that SM get something barely comparable (except less accurate, very slow, can't deep strike, negate dozens of shots, or do any other broken Tau stuff) and suddenly sky is falling and somehow this Schrödinger unit is simultaneously at the back, where buffer characters are, and in the front, where enemy targets are, superpositing everywhere on the table with its mighty waddling speed to fire everywhere at once even though it can't split fire. Maybe GW should give them 60 inch move, 2+ armour, auras, drones, relics, the works, because then they will somehow be totally balanced and any limits to taking them would be needlessly oppressing poor army, eh?


I'm not certain the Commander works as well with the new targeting rules. Coldstar also went up a bit.

   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

The main issue with Commanders is that they don't COMMAND. They're good gunboats, but they should be a leader unit. Good shooting is fine, but their main abilities should be improving other models.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in nl
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





 Irbis wrote:


As for repulsor, yes, it can be given AT gun, but then you need multiple expensive, superheavy tanks that don't fit most armies, pay for transport capacity despite needing to not move, tanks that can easily be countered or played around, all in all, if your idea of a faction balance is telling its players to spam the biggest, stupidly expensive models they might not want (or completely wrong information like telling them Invictor is AT platform) then I don't know what to tell you. Besides being glad you will never dictate balance because I despise biggest, baddest bandaid model spam and prefer actual balance. Like, you know, having multiple fluffy options.

Yes and I´m glad these fluffy fun options are all given to marines, a faction so ridiculously bloated it probably has more HQ´s than I have unit datasheets to begin with. There is nothing wrong with antitank being limited to just a few platforms in your codex. My DG don´t get infantry-based anti-tank either except for a single 9" range flamer.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Falls Church, VA

I kinda want to know what ranged infantry-based anti-tank my Slaanesh Daemons have, since it's important for partial-codexes to have all the tools.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




If your going to post about a unit 1 look up it rule so you don't llok like a muppet making up wombo combos that can't happen. 2 check the prices if your going to all out point's
3 check you can actually use strategums before you start spinning lies.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I kinda want to know what ranged infantry-based anti-tank my Slaanesh Daemons have, since it's important for partial-codexes to have all the tools.
I already brought up my Nurgle Daemons and was promptly ignored. So don't hold your breath.

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