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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maybe with the smaller tables in 9th, tankbustas won't require transports or deep striking to be used?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Karol wrote:
Maybe with the smaller tables in 9th, tankbustas won't require transports or deep striking to be used?


The issue with Tankbustas is how fragile they are more than their range, a smaller table will not be much help.
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Karol wrote:
Maybe with the smaller tables in 9th, tankbustas won't require transports or deep striking to be used?


Trasnports give them protection. With the new smaller tables they may even work footslogging, but then they'd need 30ish gretchins and 1 CPs to shield them. Footslogging bustas on their own simply don't make any sense.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




It would be nice if various guns got new stats to better fit a roll, but the evidence of playtesters doing games would suggest HBs atleast are unchanged. I think people hoping MMs suddenly get 2 shots will be disappointed.

Also how about killing eradicators with a 5++/5+++? Ironhands forever might be on the way out, but it seems like such an obvious and obnoxious combo, unless Feirros has jumped to 180 points or something.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:
It would be nice if various guns got new stats to better fit a roll, but the evidence of playtesters doing games would suggest HBs atleast are unchanged. I think people hoping MMs suddenly get 2 shots will be disappointed.

Also how about killing eradicators with a 5++/5+++? Ironhands forever might be on the way out, but it seems like such an obvious and obnoxious combo, unless Feirros has jumped to 180 points or something.


Playtesters are testing out new codexes. That is where the new gun stats could come...
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Tyel wrote:
It would be nice if various guns got new stats to better fit a roll, but the evidence of playtesters doing games would suggest HBs atleast are unchanged. I think people hoping MMs suddenly get 2 shots will be disappointed.

Also how about killing eradicators with a 5++/5+++? Ironhands forever might be on the way out, but it seems like such an obvious and obnoxious combo, unless Feirros has jumped to 180 points or something.


Better bring a shield vehicle for feirros to keep him from being sniped.

   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 bullyboy wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I feel pretty confident that the Multimelta is going to be changed. I figure that they are going to give it 2 shots. That's the only thing I can think of to really make sense of what's going on.

I think marines are going to have a weapon rebalance update. Twin heavy bolter is now 30 points (provided the leaks are correct). I don't think many people were upset about twin heavy bolters? That plus grav cannons going down to 10 which makes it cost the same as a HB, a HB doesn't offer much else but range over the grav cannon


Yeah, those points really jump out as weird. 2 shot Multi meltas will be interesting, and my Talon Master woudl simply love HBs to be even better, hot damn.

Another reason to expect MM to change, you can get one as an option on the new buggy....and with current rules, you'd use the onslaught cannon every single time. So.....


Yes the MM on the buggy was something that'll be over looked every time and right now the redemptor is probably the better option for a bucket of S5 shots.

Another thing people haven't considered either is that the point values for marines are exclusive and other factions (sisters) may end up with cheaper MMs
   
Made in au
Rookie Pilot




Brisbane

 fraser1191 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I feel pretty confident that the Multimelta is going to be changed. I figure that they are going to give it 2 shots. That's the only thing I can think of to really make sense of what's going on.

I think marines are going to have a weapon rebalance update. Twin heavy bolter is now 30 points (provided the leaks are correct). I don't think many people were upset about twin heavy bolters? That plus grav cannons going down to 10 which makes it cost the same as a HB, a HB doesn't offer much else but range over the grav cannon


Yeah, those points really jump out as weird. 2 shot Multi meltas will be interesting, and my Talon Master woudl simply love HBs to be even better, hot damn.

Another reason to expect MM to change, you can get one as an option on the new buggy....and with current rules, you'd use the onslaught cannon every single time. So.....


Yes the MM on the buggy was something that'll be over looked every time and right now the redemptor is probably the better option for a bucket of S5 shots.

Another thing people haven't considered either is that the point values for marines are exclusive and other factions (sisters) may end up with cheaper MMs


Hopefully not all factions... Scions with their Melta drops are already insanely cheap... Especially when they can utilize a stratagem to disembark 5" away along with their orders, and get a bonus +1 to their hit rolls - on Turn 1...

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I know, best not let Scions be scary at the cost of command points, and an expensive transport. That would be just too much.
   
Made in au
Rookie Pilot




Brisbane

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I know, best not let Scions be scary at the cost of command points, and an expensive transport. That would be just too much.


A Land Raider is expensive, a barebones Valkyrie that just flies supersonic isn't. Especially when you factor in that the combined cost can often remove a unit significantly more expensive than them. The icing on the cake is when said Valkyries are still able to return to their board by turn 3 and embark more Troops to drop on something else. Usually the enemy is more concerned with deleting the squads sitting in their backfield, threatening other support units than the -1 to hit jets that aren't firing back (supersonic = advancing = can't shoot Heavy Weapons).

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




So...

AM:
BS4+ meltagun Xpts (went down)
BS3+ meltagun 2Xpts (went down)

SM:
BS3+ meltagun 2Xpts (went down)
BS3+ multimelta 4Xpts (went down)
BS3+ vehicle multimelta 5Xpts (went up - but gained shoot in combat)
Eradicator - LOL

T'au:
BS4+ Fusion Blaster 3Xpts (went up - lost fallback and shoot)
BS2+ Fusion Blaster 3Xpts (went up - lost fallback and shoot)

What a joke.
   
Made in au
Rookie Pilot




Brisbane

 Slayer6 wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I feel pretty confident that the Multimelta is going to be changed. I figure that they are going to give it 2 shots. That's the only thing I can think of to really make sense of what's going on.

I think marines are going to have a weapon rebalance update. Twin heavy bolter is now 30 points (provided the leaks are correct). I don't think many people were upset about twin heavy bolters? That plus grav cannons going down to 10 which makes it cost the same as a HB, a HB doesn't offer much else but range over the grav cannon


Yeah, those points really jump out as weird. 2 shot Multi meltas will be interesting, and my Talon Master woudl simply love HBs to be even better, hot damn.

Another reason to expect MM to change, you can get one as an option on the new buggy....and with current rules, you'd use the onslaught cannon every single time. So.....


Yes the MM on the buggy was something that'll be over looked every time and right now the redemptor is probably the better option for a bucket of S5 shots.

Another thing people haven't considered either is that the point values for marines are exclusive and other factions (sisters) may end up with cheaper MMs


Hopefully not all factions... Scions with their Melta drops are already insanely cheap... Especially when they can utilize a stratagem to disembark 5" away along with their orders, and get a bonus +1 to their hit rolls - on Turn 1...


HA!

How about that, the Scion Melta Command Squads used to cost 92pts, now they cost 80!

And... Since we can't see the Rule of 3 in any of the Core rules, I can literally field multiple Tempestus Primes instead of playing a balancing act with only 3...

So, Iotan Gorgonnes with 3 Tempestor Primes, 2 Meltagun Command Squads, 1 Plasmagun Command Squad, and 3 full normal Scion squads makes for a highly entertaining detachment!

Then follow it up with an Iotan Dragons detachment containing 3 more Tempestor Primes, 6 full Scion Squads, and 3 more Command Squads...

GW must really be anticipating huge Scion sales if they buffed them this much!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 21:57:00


I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

The points changes today are absolutely damning. I think at this point anyone who looks at the Eradicator statline and cost and calls it balanced must be in denial.

They may now be point-for-point both the toughest anti-tank infantry in the game and the most powerful, going into an edition where forward mobility is an absolute necessity. Nine Eradicators is going to be an auto-include in any 9th ed Marine list.

I'm sure some will keep insisting 'but melta just sucks! this is how all melta should be!' thing, completely ignoring that they outclass everything non-melta as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 21:56:59


 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Can i be salty here about the squating of R&H and elysians?

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm afraid it is starting to feel like GW had one job and they've screwed it up completely.

Rules look good, but this looks to be a far worse incarnation of balance the the 8th edition indexes. No care or attention. Just someone someone would throw together in an hour because life is short.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 catbarf wrote:
The points changes today are absolutely damning. I think at this point anyone who looks at the Eradicator statline and cost and calls it balanced must be in denial.

They may now be point-for-point both the toughest anti-tank infantry in the game and the most powerful, going into an edition where forward mobility is an absolute necessity. Nine Eradicators is going to be an auto-include in any 9th ed Marine list.

I'm sure some will keep insisting 'but melta just sucks! this is how all melta should be!' thing, completely ignoring that they outclass everything non-melta as well.


Yeah, GW made melta relevant in the worst possible way. But it sells those boxes, I guess.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's honestly hilarious, the nerfed meltas - one of the worst weapons in the game already - and then gave Primaris a much better version, for cheaper.

It's hard to see how this happened, except as a blatant "these models are overpowered, buy them" thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 23:32:58


 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Sniper Drone




 Slayer6 wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I feel pretty confident that the Multimelta is going to be changed. I figure that they are going to give it 2 shots. That's the only thing I can think of to really make sense of what's going on.

I think marines are going to have a weapon rebalance update. Twin heavy bolter is now 30 points (provided the leaks are correct). I don't think many people were upset about twin heavy bolters? That plus grav cannons going down to 10 which makes it cost the same as a HB, a HB doesn't offer much else but range over the grav cannon


Yeah, those points really jump out as weird. 2 shot Multi meltas will be interesting, and my Talon Master woudl simply love HBs to be even better, hot damn.

Another reason to expect MM to change, you can get one as an option on the new buggy....and with current rules, you'd use the onslaught cannon every single time. So.....


Yes the MM on the buggy was something that'll be over looked every time and right now the redemptor is probably the better option for a bucket of S5 shots.

Another thing people haven't considered either is that the point values for marines are exclusive and other factions (sisters) may end up with cheaper MMs


Hopefully not all factions... Scions with their Melta drops are already insanely cheap... Especially when they can utilize a stratagem to disembark 5" away along with their orders, and get a bonus +1 to their hit rolls - on Turn 1...


HA!

How about that, the Scion Melta Command Squads used to cost 92pts, now they cost 80!

And... Since we can't see the Rule of 3 in any of the Core rules, I can literally field multiple Tempestus Primes instead of playing a balancing act with only 3...

So, Iotan Gorgonnes with 3 Tempestor Primes, 2 Meltagun Command Squads, 1 Plasmagun Command Squad, and 3 full normal Scion squads makes for a highly entertaining detachment!

Then follow it up with an Iotan Dragons detachment containing 3 more Tempestor Primes, 6 full Scion Squads, and 3 more Command Squads...

GW must really be anticipating huge Scion sales if they buffed them this much!


Rule of 3 is still a thing, it's just buried somewhere in the Matched Play section instead of the Core Rules.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Slayer6 wrote:


And... Since we can't see the Rule of 3 in any of the Core rules, I can literally field multiple Tempestus Primes instead of playing a balancing act with only 3...


Ro3 wasn't the in the core rules prior, either. Ro3 will be in effect for the vast majority of games.

   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





R03 is in the missions for matched play. Presumably, locating it there gives GW a lot of options. First of all, the rule doesn't exist in Crusade. And second, GW now has the freedom to even create matched play missions that don't include the rule for special scenarios.

(It may have been applied in a preface to missions, rather than repeated in each mission though, I don't remember.)
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 catbarf wrote:
The points changes today are absolutely damning. I think at this point anyone who looks at the Eradicator statline and cost and calls it balanced must be in denial.

They may now be point-for-point both the toughest anti-tank infantry in the game and the most powerful, going into an edition where forward mobility is an absolute necessity. Nine Eradicators is going to be an auto-include in any 9th ed Marine list.

I'm sure some will keep insisting 'but melta just sucks! this is how all melta should be!' thing, completely ignoring that they outclass everything non-melta as well.
Still holding out for Multimeltas being 2 shots, because as it appears to be it just doesnt make any sense.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






 catbarf wrote:
The points changes today are absolutely damning. I think at this point anyone who looks at the Eradicator statline and cost and calls it balanced must be in denial.

They may now be point-for-point both the toughest anti-tank infantry in the game and the most powerful, going into an edition where forward mobility is an absolute necessity. Nine Eradicators is going to be an auto-include in any 9th ed Marine list.

I'm sure some will keep insisting 'but melta just sucks! this is how all melta should be!' thing, completely ignoring that they outclass everything non-melta as well.


And with no invulnerable save will still melt to massed fire. No deepsrike for positioning and they cannot splitfire.

I think a lot of people are over selling this unit.

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Togusa wrote:
And with no invulnerable save will still melt to massed fire. No deepsrike for positioning and they cannot splitfire.

I think a lot of people are over selling this unit.



No invulnerable is only an issue if you can shoot at them before they shoot you. Between them being a 3 model unit (so fairly easy to conceal behind obscuring terrain) and the option to put them in strategic reserve (I believe you can put two units in for 1cp?), It's going to be real hard to drop them before they get at least 1 round of shooting off.

As to split fire - why the gak would you want to?! Remember, there's no kill like overkill, but more importantly the probabilities on 1 shot doing anything are far too swingy for split fire to be worth it.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





sanguine40k wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
And with no invulnerable save will still melt to massed fire. No deepsrike for positioning and they cannot splitfire.

I think a lot of people are over selling this unit.



No invulnerable is only an issue if you can shoot at them before they shoot you. Between them being a 3 model unit (so fairly easy to conceal behind obscuring terrain) and the option to put them in strategic reserve (I believe you can put two units in for 1cp?), It's going to be real hard to drop them before they get at least 1 round of shooting off.

As to split fire - why the gak would you want to?! Remember, there's no kill like overkill, but more importantly the probabilities on 1 shot doing anything are far too swingy for split fire to be worth it.


1 CP and 2 squads of this dropping in killing their pts worth instantly and then beeing an issue that needs dealing with with 3 wounds and T5 each...
They are damn annoying. And way to cheap for it, for reference a squad of chosen with meltas is more pl, costs more pts wise and less effective

   
Made in gr
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 Togusa wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
The points changes today are absolutely damning. I think at this point anyone who looks at the Eradicator statline and cost and calls it balanced must be in denial.

They may now be point-for-point both the toughest anti-tank infantry in the game and the most powerful, going into an edition where forward mobility is an absolute necessity. Nine Eradicators is going to be an auto-include in any 9th ed Marine list.

I'm sure some will keep insisting 'but melta just sucks! this is how all melta should be!' thing, completely ignoring that they outclass everything non-melta as well.


And with no invulnerable save will still melt to massed fire. No deepsrike for positioning and they cannot splitfire.

I think a lot of people are over selling this unit.



6 multimeltas lying on the ground: 120 pts. 3 eradicators: 120 pts.

Oversell this.

14000
4000
2500 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




You can have T5 3+/5++/5++ defences for 13.3 points per wound and a few still cheap characters.
Easy to kill they are not.
And due to the considerable increases for certain vehicles, the potential returns have gone up further.

I can imagine first turns where 3 squads of these kill 400-500 points of vehicles/monsters, and then the rest of the Marine army kills anther 400-500ish points. On hot dice perhaps more. gg no re.

Its very bad for the game.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Togusa wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
The points changes today are absolutely damning. I think at this point anyone who looks at the Eradicator statline and cost and calls it balanced must be in denial.

They may now be point-for-point both the toughest anti-tank infantry in the game and the most powerful, going into an edition where forward mobility is an absolute necessity. Nine Eradicators is going to be an auto-include in any 9th ed Marine list.

I'm sure some will keep insisting 'but melta just sucks! this is how all melta should be!' thing, completely ignoring that they outclass everything non-melta as well.


And with no invulnerable save will still melt to massed fire. No deepsrike for positioning and they cannot splitfire.

I think a lot of people are over selling this unit.



Massed fire generally don't have -3 AP. You expecting 3++? Positioning they can come out of reserves and with 24" range have no issue. And not many melta weapon units want to split fire anything since most shoot just 2-3 shots anyway. Actually you want 6 shots to reliably one shot vehicles anyway so split fire would be taking silly risks anyway. 2-3 melta shots aren't doing anything significant. 6 meanwhile does. You want to kill 1 rather than hurt 2. Other units hurt 1.

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:


I can imagine first turns where 3 squads of these kill 400-500 points of vehicles/monsters, and then the rest of the Marine army kills anther 400-500ish points. On hot dice perhaps more. gg no re.

Its very bad for the game.

If it comes to that, you can tell your opponent after the first game, that you don't enjoy 3 eradicator squads and ask him to tone it down.
He either adapts or you dont play him a second time. Solves the problem, unless he is forcing you at gun point to play with him

Alternatively, you could adapt your tactics and not put 400-500 points worth of monsters and vehicles right 24" away from three full Eradicator squads.

I get you, they are very good for their points and can easily make back their points and more. But you are not helpless and have to take the pounding without defending yourself.
   
Made in gr
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

a_typical_hero wrote:
Tyel wrote:


I can imagine first turns where 3 squads of these kill 400-500 points of vehicles/monsters, and then the rest of the Marine army kills anther 400-500ish points. On hot dice perhaps more. gg no re.

Its very bad for the game.

If it comes to that, you can tell your opponent after the first game, that you don't enjoy 3 eradicator squads and ask him to tone it down.
He either adapts or you dont play him a second time. Solves the problem, unless he is forcing you at gun point to play with him

Alternatively, you could adapt your tactics and not put 400-500 points worth of monsters and vehicles right 24" away from three full Eradicator squads.

I get you, they are very good for their points and can easily make back their points and more. But you are not helpless and have to take the pounding without defending yourself.


Alternatively alternatively, I would expect from the company I pay 40 per rules codex and 80 per base rulebook and about 600-1500 per army to not put me in a position where I need to figure this out with my friend.

You know, kind of like ordering a pizza and it comes in cold and the delivery guy is like "come on, just heat it up in your microwave. Solves the problem".

Also, let me know what should I put in my Tyranid list that will not be 400-500 points worth of monsters within 33" of the eradicators (since they can run and shoot, assault weapons and all) and it won't be massed T3 no save hordes that will die to Blast weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 10:03:30


14000
4000
2500 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





a_typical_hero wrote:
Tyel wrote:


I can imagine first turns where 3 squads of these kill 400-500 points of vehicles/monsters, and then the rest of the Marine army kills anther 400-500ish points. On hot dice perhaps more. gg no re.

Its very bad for the game.

If it comes to that, you can tell your opponent after the first game, that you don't enjoy 3 eradicator squads and ask him to tone it down.
He either adapts or you dont play him a second time. Solves the problem, unless he is forcing you at gun point to play with him

Alternatively, you could adapt your tactics and not put 400-500 points worth of monsters and vehicles right 24" away from three full Eradicator squads.

I get you, they are very good for their points and can easily make back their points and more. But you are not helpless and have to take the pounding without defending yourself.


you realise though, that the denial tactics you mention are even more pts invested into nowadays atleast 5 pts models (most pay 6 now) that aren't even good anymore, and that the SM player can keep them in reserve longer so you can't even outwait them as you could with 8th ..

No matter how you slice it, these are stupidly priced and stupidly powerfull. And even internally an issue balancewise.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
topaxygouroun i wrote:

Alternatively alternatively, I would expect from the company I pay 40 per rules codex and 80 per base rulebook and about 600-1500 per army to not put me in a position where I need to figure this out with my friend.

You know, kind of like ordering a pizza and it comes in cold and the delivery guy is like "come on, just heat it up in your microwave. Solves the problem".

Also, let me know what should I put in my Tyranid list that will not be 400-500 points worth of monsters within 33" of the eradicators (since they can run and shoot, assault weapons and all) and it won't be massed T3 no save hordes that will die to Blast weapons.


you know, you can advance them even or bring them in from the other side...
It's a failproof unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 10:06:18


   
 
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