Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
According to 4chin, the new marine codex has all of the chapters in it and clocks in at 200 pages. This will include the full rules for all of the new units.
Also, Eridacators aren't that broken. They can't DS, and they'll die to massed fire just as another other unit does. People need to stop freaking out about them, they ain't that good on paper.
When you say they can’t DS does that mean they can’t use the new rule to go into reinforcements with CP and enter via the board edge from turn 2? Or just that they don’t have DS on their datacard?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 22:16:47
I think just about every top tournament Marine list will be running 3 squads of eradicators if they are 40 points per model.
Now okay, if they can only be got in the Indomitus kit, they might be too restricted for mass adoption, but assuming they get a general release at some point, I expect they will be near universal.
If you agree with me, say so.
If you disagree say so.
If you think people will take them, because they are potentially the best anti-tank in the game, but you know it won't influence the meta or anything, and Marines will somehow be a bad tournament army, say so too.
I think just about every top tournament Marine list will be running 3 squads of eradicators if they are 40 points per model.
Now okay, if they can only be got in the Indomitus kit, they might be too restricted for mass adoption, but assuming they get a general release at some point, I expect they will be near universal.
If you agree with me, say so.
If you disagree say so.
If you think people will take them, because they are potentially the best anti-tank in the game, but you know it won't influence the meta or anything, and Marines will somehow be a bad tournament army, say so too.
I think just about every top tournament Marine list will be running 3 squads of eradicators if they are 40 points per model.
Now okay, if they can only be got in the Indomitus kit, they might be too restricted for mass adoption, but assuming they get a general release at some point, I expect they will be near universal.
If you agree with me, say so.
If you disagree say so.
If you think people will take them, because they are potentially the best anti-tank in the game, but you know it won't influence the meta or anything, and Marines will somehow be a bad tournament army, say so too.
What am I voting on?
That all the tourney SM armies will use them?
Or that all SM players, tourny + non-tourney alike will be using them?
Tourney play? I don't give gak what you all do. If it's the new hotness I assume you'll use - it until it's not.
Outside of tourneys? (shrugs) All I can tell you is for me their use will be;
NO - my SWs will not be using them. My SWs are 100% 2e models/stuff available as models in 2e - so no primaris fits.
MAYBE - possible use in my DA. Nothing in this army is painted by me, so to add them I'd need to find already painted models I like look & price or specifically commision.
YES - Since I'll have them I'll either paint them up as an option for my Mentors, or form the Indomitus contents into a small all Primaris force.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.
It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "
At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.
I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.
Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.
According to 4chin, the new marine codex has all of the chapters in it and clocks in at 200 pages. This will include the full rules for all of the new units.
Also, Eridacators aren't that broken. They can't DS, and they'll die to massed fire just as another other unit does. People need to stop freaking out about them, they ain't that good on paper.
If only marines didn't have ways to deepstrike units. Either through stratagems or models...
Heck thanks to 24" range they don't necessarily need to deepstrike. 30+d6" (move+run cause they are assault) threat range gets you pretty far
And then they're hitting on 4+. I really don't expect they'll be as used as most people claim. I'm going to use them because they fit right in with the theme of my salamanders, and since i don't use any non-primaris units, I'm severely lacking currently in the Anti-Tank department.
I think just about every top tournament Marine list will be running 3 squads of eradicators if they are 40 points per model.
Now okay, if they can only be got in the Indomitus kit, they might be too restricted for mass adoption, but assuming they get a general release at some point, I expect they will be near universal.
If you agree with me, say so.
If you disagree say so.
If you think people will take them, because they are potentially the best anti-tank in the game, but you know it won't influence the meta or anything, and Marines will somehow be a bad tournament army, say so too.
"Best"
*Laughs in Oblitrator*
Comon dude, they're a good unit. But they're completely on par with things like Fire Dragons, Obliterators, Havoks and even Devastator marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/04 22:48:19
Tyel wrote: Now okay, if they can only be got in the Indomitus kit, they might be too restricted for mass adoption, but assuming they get a general release at some point, I expect they will be near universal.
Because you so totally can't replace a bolter with a meltagun on any Primaris marine...
You can't do that...because it would be a melta gun and not a melta rifle...see ? Though honestly we don't know how many of these boxes the " limited " is. It could be a hell of a lot out in the wild once it drops.
I feel pretty confident that the Multimelta is going to be changed. I figure that they are going to give it 2 shots. That's the only thing I can think of to really make sense of what's going on.
I think marines are going to have a weapon rebalance update. Twin heavy bolter is now 30 points (provided the leaks are correct). I don't think many people were upset about twin heavy bolters? That plus grav cannons going down to 10 which makes it cost the same as a HB, a HB doesn't offer much else but range over the grav cannon
Tyel wrote: Now okay, if they can only be got in the Indomitus kit, they might be too restricted for mass adoption, but assuming they get a general release at some point, I expect they will be near universal.
Because you so totally can't replace a bolter with a meltagun on any Primaris marine...
Eradicators are Gravis though, so you'd need to at least use Aggressors as a starting point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fraser1191 wrote: I feel pretty confident that the Multimelta is going to be changed. I figure that they are going to give it 2 shots. That's the only thing I can think of to really make sense of what's going on.
I think marines are going to have a weapon rebalance update. Twin heavy bolter is now 30 points (provided the leaks are correct). I don't think many people were upset about twin heavy bolters? That plus grav cannons going down to 10 which makes it cost the same as a HB, a HB doesn't offer much else but range over the grav cannon
This would make sense and be welcome.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/05 00:24:56
AngryAngel80 wrote: I did envision the marines getting another codex soon after the editions release. I bet it'll have just enough changes to make it a must buy and not optional, just to get that tasty marine bucks in.
It's kind of a twisted favoritism though, tons of new books and releases all the time for Marines but damn if they don't charge the player base out the nose over and over and over. Honestly at this point, as much as I don't want to say it, they should just change the game name to " Space Marines, 40,000 "
At least make it easy on new players to know who is going to get like 75% of releases each year. It's actually getting a little much. Some smattering for another faction, then half a year of marines, a few kits, then marines. Even when Marines aren't supposed to be " The " release they are still getting stuff during other factions release windows it's crazy.
I know, I know. I'm just noticing this ? I'm not I've been noticing it but each year seems to grow more with intensity of that lopsided nature in this and I doubt it'll stop any time soon.
Even beyond the broke as a joke ERADICATOR !! rules for super melta guns, I'm sorry, Melta Rifles, the barrel is rifled that is why it shoots farther of course. Best keep these salty threads flowing as I feel like we'll just see these special ++ units more and more now.
According to 4chin, the new marine codex has all of the chapters in it and clocks in at 200 pages. This will include the full rules for all of the new units.
Also, Eridacators aren't that broken. They can't DS, and they'll die to massed fire just as another other unit does. People need to stop freaking out about them, they ain't that good on paper.
Is that ALL the Chapters or still not the Wolves and Angels?
They really are completely broken - expect to be hammered in the 2 week faq.
According to the 4chan post, its all chapters, wolves, angels and so on inculded.
Comon dude, they're a good unit. But they're completely on par with things like Fire Dragons, Obliterators, Havoks and even Devastator marines.
Really? Really.
Let's compare to Fire Dragons.
For 110 points, you get 5 Fire Dragons. That's about half the wounds at a lower toughness value, and one less melta shot at half the range.
A single Obliterator is similar in points value to three Eradicators.
Havoks and Devastators can put out similar damage, though not as much, but are far more fragile.
You act as though the erdicators aren't equally fragile, with no invuln to help them. They also must shoot the same target, cannot split fire and can still roll a 1 for their damage. I don't currently know of a way to deepstrike them, so a well shielded tank will be easy to hide.
This game isn't about survival of the model, when you're playing competitive, it's all about how quickly can you eliminate the threat. I just don't see them being the new hotness outside of competitive environment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AngryAngel80 wrote: You can't do that...because it would be a melta gun and not a melta rifle...see ? Though honestly we don't know how many of these boxes the " limited " is. It could be a hell of a lot out in the wild once it drops.
I would almost be willing to bet that Eridacators are a part of a two model kit, the other half being the fabled "hellfuries" we saw mentioned in the supplements and the Codex 2 from last year.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/05 00:48:38
I think just about every top tournament Marine list will be running 3 squads of eradicators if they are 40 points per model.
Now okay, if they can only be got in the Indomitus kit, they might be too restricted for mass adoption, but assuming they get a general release at some point, I expect they will be near universal.
If you agree with me, say so.
If you disagree say so.
If you think people will take them, because they are potentially the best anti-tank in the game, but you know it won't influence the meta or anything, and Marines will somehow be a bad tournament army, say so too.
Does anyone want to write up what they think a valid list would be with 3 units of eradicators?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/05 01:09:20
Comparatively, there's a lot of units they can sweep off the table very efficiently.
Smasha guns - 4 should do it with some clean up shots if the damage rolls go sideways. 12 tankbustaz.
About 1 moirax with graviton. A vindicator can take a couple.
If you kill even two the threat profile is pretty low.
How many points are 4 Smasha Guns? Battlescribe says 33, so for more points than them, you have less than 50/50 odds of doing four wounds. And while you do have a little over 70% odds of doing three wounds, that comes with a large chance that you'll whiff a damage roll.
12 Tankbustas are 204 points (again, Battlescribe) with the same range as Eradicators-so either that's dangerously close, or Eradicators don't have to get dangerously close. Also, They average to 4 hits, 8/3 wounds, and 16/9 failed saves. They don't even average a dead squad. To kill a squad, you'd need just over 20.
Similarly, the Moirax only kills two on average for 155 points (with two Grav weapons).
Edit: Notice how you're using big guns to kill them.
That's not something you need to do with Fire Dragons. Or Havocs. Or Devastators.
It IS something you do with Obliterators, but considering that one Oblit is similar in price to three Eradicators... Yeah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/05 01:16:01
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Nitro Zeus wrote: I’ve never seen someone contradict their own argument so many times and still finish their write up just as confident as when they began.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Realistically, nothing is beating their AV efficiency. But that doesn't mean they can't be killed by a lot of things. They at least can't operate from the back line. People are going to shoot them with lascannons and stuff.
They'll be fire magnets because the obvious move will always be to shoot all your high D weaponry at them until they are dead. But you'll lose out on efficiency doing this. It'll make every game in which they are used annoyingly predictable. It'll turn all battles as SM into "How much can I hurt them with my other units while they are busy shooting my Eradicators".
Vehicle deployment will also be heavily determined by Eradicator deployment. Armies that rely on putting vehicles anywhere but the back line will be shafted.
Take several squads and put them with as much cover and buffs as possible, because your opponent has no choice but to shoot his whole army at them till they die (unless they are playing a pure infantry army or other such skew list.)
You act as though the erdicators aren't equally fragile. . .
As Fire Dragons? Are you joking?
Togusa wrote: This game isn't about survival of the model, when you're playing competitive, it's all about how quickly can you eliminate the threat.
Imagine if you will, that we live in a world in which how quickly you can eliminate something is somehow tied to the survivability of the target model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/05 01:37:56
JNAProductions wrote: How many points are 4 Smasha Guns? Battlescribe says 33, so for more points than them, you have less than 50/50 odds of doing four wounds. And while you do have a little over 70% odds of doing three wounds, that comes with a large chance that you'll whiff a damage roll.
12 Tankbustas are 204 points (again, Battlescribe) with the same range as Eradicators-so either that's dangerously close, or Eradicators don't have to get dangerously close.
Also, They average to 4 hits, 8/3 wounds, and 16/9 failed saves. They don't even average a dead squad. To kill a squad, you'd need just over 20.
Similarly, the Moirax only kills two on average for 155 points (with two Grav weapons).
Edit: Notice how you're using big guns to kill them.
That's not something you need to do with Fire Dragons. Or Havocs. Or Devastators.
It IS something you do with Obliterators, but considering that one Oblit is similar in price to three Eradicators... Yeah.
There's a lot at play here.
If Primaris take these chunky units then big guns are more popular and softer infantry is safer.
If people expect to take 3 units they will have little other AT flexibility without some other sacrifice.
I think people need to make lists and that will give us a better sense of what the synergies will be.
I think just about every top tournament Marine list will be running 3 squads of eradicators if they are 40 points per model.
Now okay, if they can only be got in the Indomitus kit, they might be too restricted for mass adoption, but assuming they get a general release at some point, I expect they will be near universal.
If you agree with me, say so.
If you disagree say so.
If you think people will take them, because they are potentially the best anti-tank in the game, but you know it won't influence the meta or anything, and Marines will somehow be a bad tournament army, say so too.
I'm with the last two points. The main lists won't have really have much an impact from them being ran. However I do suspect some people trying to place will use them simply because they exist as is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So yeah let's take the bet!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/05 01:47:14
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
If Primaris take these chunky units then big guns are more popular and softer infantry is safer.
If people expect to take 3 units they will have little other AT flexibility without some other sacrifice.
I think people need to make lists and that will give us a better sense of what the synergies will be.
Yeah, but that's true of every unit in the game, even bad ones!
If <X> takes <Y>, then <Y's weapon type> is more popular and <Things good against Y> are safer.
If people expect to take 3 units they will have little other <Y's weapon type's role> flexibility without some other sacrifice.
I think people need to make lists and that will give us a better sense of what the synergies will be.
Falling back on role counters to fix a unit that is too strong in comparison to other units of the same role doesn't work to balance individually overpowered units. What matters is the strength of the unit compared to other similar units. If an individual unit has too high efficiency, having the whole meta adjust to counter it isn't really a fix. It turns the whole game into fighting one unit, and screws up the meta for every other matchup.
Also, in general, it's worth noting that comparing Eradicators to other melta units isn't apples to apples. They are similar in weapon name only. Other melta units tend to be 6-12" effective range glass cannons. Eradicators are mid to upper mid range and have good durability for their cost. The proper comparison for them isn't fire dragons, its Obliterators and other such mobile, high damage, anti-everything midfield units.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/05 02:01:22
Only in Primaris-land is an AT unit that can make back its points in one turn from across the board not all that great, because 3 T5/3+ wounds on a 40pt model is too easy to remove. I'll put together a band of T3/W2 Heavy Weapons Teams, T5/W1 Havocs, T3/W1 Fire Dragons, and T4/W1 Devastators (all well upwards of 20pts) to play a sad song on the world's smallest violin.
Also I have to assume Togusa doesn't actually know the stats for Fire Dragons, because that's the only way I can rationalize saying they're comparable.
JNAProductions wrote: How many points are 4 Smasha Guns? Battlescribe says 33, so for more points than them, you have less than 50/50 odds of doing four wounds. And while you do have a little over 70% odds of doing three wounds, that comes with a large chance that you'll whiff a damage roll.
12 Tankbustas are 204 points (again, Battlescribe) with the same range as Eradicators-so either that's dangerously close, or Eradicators don't have to get dangerously close.
Also, They average to 4 hits, 8/3 wounds, and 16/9 failed saves. They don't even average a dead squad. To kill a squad, you'd need just over 20.
Similarly, the Moirax only kills two on average for 155 points (with two Grav weapons).
Edit: Notice how you're using big guns to kill them.
That's not something you need to do with Fire Dragons. Or Havocs. Or Devastators.
It IS something you do with Obliterators, but considering that one Oblit is similar in price to three Eradicators... Yeah.
There's a lot at play here.
If Primaris take these chunky units then big guns are more popular and softer infantry is safer.
If people expect to take 3 units they will have little other AT flexibility without some other sacrifice.
I think people need to make lists and that will give us a better sense of what the synergies will be.
Do we know if these guys are heavy support or elites? Did I miss that being revealed? Because it makes a big difference. If they're elites you won't be giving up much AT flexibility by taking them.
Do we know if these guys are heavy support or elites? Did I miss that being revealed? Because it makes a big difference. If they're elites you won't be giving up much AT flexibility by taking them.
JNAProductions wrote: How many points are 4 Smasha Guns? Battlescribe says 33, so for more points than them, you have less than 50/50 odds of doing four wounds. And while you do have a little over 70% odds of doing three wounds, that comes with a large chance that you'll whiff a damage roll.
12 Tankbustas are 204 points (again, Battlescribe) with the same range as Eradicators-so either that's dangerously close, or Eradicators don't have to get dangerously close.
Also, They average to 4 hits, 8/3 wounds, and 16/9 failed saves. They don't even average a dead squad. To kill a squad, you'd need just over 20.
Similarly, the Moirax only kills two on average for 155 points (with two Grav weapons).
Edit: Notice how you're using big guns to kill them.
That's not something you need to do with Fire Dragons. Or Havocs. Or Devastators.
It IS something you do with Obliterators, but considering that one Oblit is similar in price to three Eradicators... Yeah.
There's a lot at play here.
If Primaris take these chunky units then big guns are more popular and softer infantry is safer.
If people expect to take 3 units they will have little other AT flexibility without some other sacrifice.
I think people need to make lists and that will give us a better sense of what the synergies will be.
Do we know if these guys are heavy support or elites? Did I miss that being revealed? Because it makes a big difference. If they're elites you won't be giving up much AT flexibility by taking them.
Heavy. Marines have plenty of AT elsewhere though through classic options like Dreadnoughts, Razorbacks, etc. Still not sure how much people are going to avoid taking Spearheads and such for 3 CP too.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
fraser1191 wrote: I feel pretty confident that the Multimelta is going to be changed. I figure that they are going to give it 2 shots. That's the only thing I can think of to really make sense of what's going on.
I think marines are going to have a weapon rebalance update. Twin heavy bolter is now 30 points (provided the leaks are correct). I don't think many people were upset about twin heavy bolters? That plus grav cannons going down to 10 which makes it cost the same as a HB, a HB doesn't offer much else but range over the grav cannon
Yeah, those points really jump out as weird. 2 shot Multi meltas will be interesting, and my Talon Master woudl simply love HBs to be even better, hot damn.
Another reason to expect MM to change, you can get one as an option on the new buggy....and with current rules, you'd use the onslaught cannon every single time. So.....
Yeah, those points really jump out as weird. 2 shot Multi meltas will be interesting, and my Talon Master woudl simply love HBs to be even better, hot damn.
Another reason to expect MM to change, you can get one as an option on the new buggy....and with current rules, you'd use the onslaught cannon every single time. So.....
I would like to warn people about being to optimistic about points and rules changes. If GW buffs normal non primaris melta it is going to be great, but GW does mess up stuff from time to time. When they rised the point cost of psycannons mounted on razorbacks, they costed it as if it was a heavy psycannon, but it wasn't.
For all we know MM could still be one shot.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
it makes sense as well that if you wanted to revamp weapons and equipment you'd start with space marines, Marine armies across their various incarnations certainly make up the bulk of lists, and then when you realize that in addition you have a massive number of armies using many of the baseline marine weapons (guard, sisters, etc all use plasma, metla etc) and there are definatly a few weapons in 40k that largely are considered to simply not be very worthwhile. Melta's are one of the top contenders here. their conversion to 8th edition took one of the most potent anti-tank weapons in the game and made it well... crap
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Smasha guns - 4 should do it with some clean up shots if the damage rolls go sideways. 12 tankbustaz.
Smasha gunz are excellent in taking out primaris and multiwounds T4 high armor saves dudes in general, that's their role.
However tankbustas aren't that efficient: they cost a lot of points base, they require an expensive transport or to invest CPs to deepstrike (in an army that is already CPs starved with the new format) and their most appropriate targets are vehicles. We're also talking about T4 1W 6+ saves models. So, no, tankbustas aren't efficient for that role.
This also assuming 8th points costs. If they go up significantly, and Smasha Gunz could definitely go up by a lot since they're the most undercosted ork unit, their efficiency in taking out those melta primaris drops down dramatically.
Eldar- 4436 pts
