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A note before reading from your author: I did this as part of examining the sociology of media which is a huge field of interest for me as part of my degree [insert useless degree joke], and regardless of your views on feminism, racism, sexism, etc etc please keep it friendly and maybe not debate these concepts as a whole in terms of whether they should exist or any stuff like that as this essay uses Feminist Theory, which isn’t the same as Feminism and Feminist Theory, like all theories – Marxist, Queer, etc – merely is a frame to see a piece of media or the world in for analysis. Equally I would love to hear from other academics or even just people’s opinions or maybe if this has just helped clarify the whole mess, because I honestly avoided this topic for a long time wanting to keep my hobby away from depressing things like politics. But if all form of media must have politique, then here we go. Buckle in.

TL;DR - The issue is a lot more complex than thing = good or thing = bad, and this mini essay argues the point that critique isn't critisism and that there's more layers to this issue to explore, like the historical and cultural background.

If you grew up with Warhammer and it’s a huge thing for you with deep meaning, know I am not trying to gak on you for enjoying what you enjoy. There is nothing wrong with liking something, and being critical of that thing doesn’t take it away. Being critical isn’t criticism of the thing itself. However, it’s time to talk female Space Marines. One of the most compelling arguments I’ve heard is that we can’t really tell their gender. Which is fair, big suits hide things. Except both Space Marines and Imperial Guard (ahem, Astra Militarim, whatever they wanna call them) are coded male. With helmets off, they are all male, and they all have a nice bulge in their trousers. All media by its nature contains shorthand, trying to get across something to its audience without saying it. In this case gender coding allows for the audience to make assumptions. When something is coded very male, its saying “my audience is for men,”. In the 1950s we saw a huge increase in traditional gender roles akin to the Victorian era, they rose up again in the media, mainly film, and with it Post Modernism rose. I have been studying sociology for years now and cannot give you a clear cut definition because it’s simply so broad but to try and narrow it down to what’s relevant here, I will simply say it is a tag on from Modernism (the acceptance of the belief that enlightenment is inevitable and we’ll all be modern thinkers, it does go deeper but entire books have been written on modernity) and postmodern feminism began to challenge gender itself. Why were women portrayed one way and men the other? Arguably some of this is history – but they looked at how media shapes our beliefs, we consume it, and reproduce it (oh hi Marx).

In the era Warhammer came about, gender coding was strict. If you grew up in the 90s like I imagine many people here did you know that from adverts. Boys adverts were explosions! Gross stuff! Trucks! Hot wheels! As were their TV shows and girls got ponies, Barbie, hundreds of baby dolls that all did the same things but were totally different and you need to buy them all. (Note, by era, I mean the era of strict gender roles notably the 50s til about 2010 depending who you ask. Things aren’t as aggressively boy/girl as before and many children born past 2010 see huge media changes). But the times they are a changing and with it so is media.

“But if postmodernism wants to deconstruct gender,” I hear you say, “why do we need female coded space marines?” Which is a good question, and comes down to the issue that while theory is great, we have to operate within the real world. Many feminist theories, queer theories, Marxist theories, etc, deconstruct the idea of gender as a whole and call it non-existent. It is a social construct, but this holds other layers of complexity. Race, for example, is a social construct but it still affects our lives, we didn’t need a civil rights movement for white people to be able to sit on buses and use water fountains. Same as representation does affect people’s self-image, self-esteem and what they believe they are capable of doing. As young as 5/6 children internalise the idea of what men and women do career wise, and even 9 year olds have been reported in studies to believe “girls are inherently bad at maths”, which holds no biological basis. But this is a sociological essay, not a psychological one, so I won’t go too deep into stereotypes and how they’re consumed and reproduced.

If you got this far, you’re probably asking – what does any of this mean anyway? Why does it matter? Without talking about the psychological importance of representation, I can say it means that it says a lot about our culture that there is a huge pushback against more women in Warhammer. Media reflects the views and ideals of the time, it’s why so many Disney and Pixar movies have success now talking about identity: because it’s relevant to us and reflects our conflicts. Michael Bay refused to have a female transformer as it would “warrant explanation, and there is no time for that,” which makes no sense because if we can believe in robot cars and have the suspension of disbelief to pretend the plots make sense, we won’t question a female bot. But they’re all coded male, as that’s the intended audience. Alienation thus occurs. In my opinion it’d be a lot cooler to see genderless robots trying to figure out gender through the protagonist’s love story, and allow itself some humour, but instead we’ve so internalised the believe that cars = men we can’t do it.

This is the point I am forced to address female Warhammer figures and Tyranids. I am pleased Tyranids aren’t coded, and honestly, they’re an awesome Alien race. But female Warhammer figures/characters include things like sisters of battle. Which I love and genuinely find awesome. I love the figures and the idea of space nuns with guns. But why are all the models portrayed in a way that perpetuates the male gaze? And I mean that in the academic sense coined in 1974, not the internet buzzword. The male gaze applies to male and female figures in Warhammer, as seeing men represented more than women especially in certain roles is part of it. Yes, skull breast plates are badass and play into the part of me that wants to see this kind of style. But the way they’re designed, and knowing the creative team behind them and the audience they are marketed to, is arguably made for men, not women. Breast plates for women being domes to cover tits don’t work, and wouldn’t be realistic armour. They’d have to be flat. They are shown to have waists and loincloths. Again, there could be a huge psychology tangent about the impact representing women like this has but despite my major being psychology I will refrain.

But does any of this mean anything? Well…yes and no. We’re allowed to like our epic, sci-fi, fantasy media and enjoy it. I love Sisters Of Battle for their design even if it’s arguably very male gaze like. You’re allowed to want all Space Marines or Imperial Guard to be male because that’s the cannon you have in your head. In my canon all Tyranids are female [granted, this belief has fewer real world implications], and I’m not about to feel bad for it. But understanding why this issue matters and the wider cultural implications makes the whole “feminist 40k thing” less annoying. I want models of all implied genders and races to be produced. I want less sexualised female characters. But the issue is a lot more complicated that thing good or thing bad. If your guilty pleasure is female warriors in tight fitting armour that’s fair (and, you know, same), but anyone who tries to say, “hey, this is problematic and we need more options,” isn’t attacking you or what you love.

[Awaits for literally no one to care, but I would like others POV].

Well, first off I have to say that I feel imminently unqualified to speak in an academic sense about Marxist/Feminist/etc Theory, as I've never studied it.

I will say that as an IG player, I've often thought it would be great to have some female guardsmen to mix into my force; Victoria Miniatures makes some very nice looking models and heads that I've been debating about picking up for a while now, though I would honestly prefer an official GW product that can fully integrate with my existing army (I use Cadian models) without the subtle visual differences. Honestly, I think IG are probably one of the easiest avenues for GW to use to expand the representation of women in 40k; there are already plenty of notable examples of female IG troopers in the extended fluff (look at the Gaunt's Ghosts series for one example).

There needs to be a disconnect established here.

Fem40k

More female models

Asking for more female models is fine.

Fem40k have attacked the community with accusations of "toxic" "sexist" and "racist" behaviour, they refuse to have an open dialogue due to non existent "threats" as such anything they say has been tainted and is viewed as "SJW" noise to be ignored, if they want to be taken seriously they need to issue a public apology for the BOLS article, until then no matter what they say, they will be viewed with suspicion and distrust.

I won't be the first to say that tabletop, and videogames as a whole up until very recently has been a boys club. It's only been the last 5 years where we've started to see real, hard traction towards making it inclusion for women, as an active effort.

That being said, people will be people, and people love to put the vocal minority on display. The argument isn't just between feminists and the worst of the neckbeards, it's about everyone inbetween who really has the opinions that matter most.

It's came down to shaming at this point, but in a good way. If you're a bully, a neckbeard, anything toxic towards women being allowed into the game? People /do/ shame them. And that's the best coures of action. Don't ban them, let them learn.

Tyranids are seemingly led by a very brood mother esque class system, the sisters of battle are /elite/, there is plenty of examples of women. If anything, there seems to be a lack of racial diversity...But that's another arguement for another day.

All in all, I think we're on the right track. The Triumverate boxes had half of the models be female, and that was a fairly major release of important plot characters.

I haven't seen anybody say that he don't want female models in warhammer (Ok, I have seen some individuals on the internet, but bah, fringe individuals exist in both extremes of the spectrum). Tau, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Necron (No I'm not talking about robots with tits), etc... and of course plastic SoB. Theres a lot of room for female models. And Saint Celestine, Greyfax, SoS, etc... show that female models sell.

About Michael Bay. That guy is a horrible director. The Transformers Cartoon had female Transformers nearly from the beginning (I'm no Transformers Expert so I don't know if they where there from the beginning of the female bots were introduced later, but they exist). And if I remember correctly, the autobots that were motorbikes in Transformers 2, where female.

About female space marines: We don't need more space marines, and we don't need female space marines. Why? Because theres no problem with having a 100% male faction. The problem is that the 100% male faction has 60% of the releases of the game, and the 100% female faction has 0.001%. Thats the only problem here, the concepts of the factions are fine.


But what can I say. I was the kind of boy that when it was a kid played with play-doo, playmobil and a little market with my fruits and vegetables and a little kitchen to cook food for my mama. I have never been the prototype of masculine individual.

But the issue is a lot more complicated that thing good or thing bad. If your guilty pleasure is female warriors in tight fitting armour that’s fair (and, you know, same), but anyone who tries to say, “hey, this is problematic and we need more options,” isn’t attacking you or what you love.

The problem is it is never presented in this light. It is presented as "We need these options, and you are indeed bad for liking this so we are going to try and take this away from you as it's problematic/toxic/sexist."

Having male-only Space Marines due tradition in one thing (which I don't necessarily agree with, but still) but having no female models in factions that supposedly are mixed-gender (such as guard) is just inexcusable. Let's start with getting actual equal representation on the factions that should have it, and not focusing on the bloody Space Marines all the time. One faction being male-only would not be such an issue, if 90% of the marketing and fluff would not centre on that faction, while supposed mixed-gender armies are still represented solely by male models, and the female-only faction languishes neglected.

One thing I also despise is that when writing new fluff GW has established more male-only factions. SM thing was written a long time ago, I think it was a mistake, but there is massive resistance for changing it now. However, when Imperial Knights got their first codex, it was stated that Knight pilots were exclusively male too! Thankfully that has been abandoned in later iterations. I was also annoyed to read in the new Custodes codex, that the Custodians are recruited from sons of noble families. That was unnecessary, they could have at least left it vague. (I will definitely be converting some female Custodians regardless.)

 Crimson wrote:
Having male-only Space Marines due tradition in one thing (which I don't necessarily agree with, but still) but having no female models in factions that supposedly are mixed-gender (such as guard) is just inexcusable. Let's start with getting actual equal representation on the factions that should have it, and not focusing on the bloody Space Marines all the time. One faction being male-only would not be such an issue, if 90% of the marketing and fluff would not centre on that faction, while supposed mixed-gender armies are still represented solely by male models, and the female-only faction languishes neglected.

One thing I also despise is that when writing new fluff GW has established more male-only factions. SM thing was written a long time ago, I think it was a mistake, but there is massive resistance for changing it now. However, when Imperial Knights got their first codex, it was stated that Knight pilots were exclusively male too! Thankfully that has been abandoned in later iterations. I was also annoyed to read in the new Custodes codex, that the Custodians are recruited from sons of noble families. That was unnecessary, they could have at least left it vague. (I will definitely be converting some female Custodians regardless.)

Yeah, female Custodians was a missed opportunity. As they are hand-crafted individually I see no reason for them to be all male. At least all of mine have helmets, so my Captain-Shield on bike will be named as female

 Formosa wrote:
There needs to be a disconnect established here.

Fem40k

More female models

Asking for more female models is fine.

Fem40k have attacked the community with accusations of "toxic" "sexist" and "racist" behaviour, they refuse to have an open dialogue due to non existent "threats" as such anything they say has been tainted and is viewed as "SJW" noise to be ignored, if they want to be taken seriously they need to issue a public apology for the BOLS article, until then no matter what they say, they will be viewed with suspicion and distrust.

I suppose, but I think that opens the debate about how the internet has changed how views are expressed. Like my semi point about the Male Gaze because I had to condense everything, because the idea of the Male Gaze has basically, online, become any woman dressed sexually when actually it goes a lot deeper than that. Like, yes, there is an air of sexism and racism when nearly all models are male and have european features.

But I do fully see the point about how these points when said on an online medium without proper explanation of what these buzzwords mean causes people to switch off and view it as you say, noice to be ignored. I personally find the BOLS article fine, and find this admin response http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/10/feminist-40k-admins-respond.html to really explain how annoying it can be to have a select few in the community who get genuinely upset at the idea of female characters.

I don't mean to be so wish washy or sound centrist on the argument as that is far from where my allignment is, but I will say understanding why this blacklash exists, as I overviewed in the OP, is kinda key to understanding how to get a point across.

But internet culture as I will losely call it leads to people having the agency to say "screw you guys for being sexist" and "screw feminist 40k for attacking the hobby I love" and both sides aren't right or wrong. In my own opinion I'd say that yeah it is problematic to only want male figures for your army but you're still allowed to do it. SOB are problematic and I love them, and sadly, that's part of any movement like feminism - disagreement within it, as some people will yell misogyny at me and others will agree.

However it is good to not see too much backlash against female models themselves like there's a term for it I forget someone please find it for me when the argument over an issue becomes bigger than the issue itself. It feels all the emotions we have around feminism have charged the Feminist 40k movement to end up being a bigger deal than it was to want female models. Wording there isnt perfect, but I hope that makes sense.

None should take modern feminists seriously.

They are the ones that destroy franchises (see the SJW revolution in Marvel that saw multiple comics tank). They hammer and hammer on "problems" in say comics/card games/ tabletop games but they aren't the ones investing time and money in said hobbies. They're just a very vocal (and obnoxious) minority and they are the ones bringing toxicity.

The gaming clubs i have been to (i haven't been playing to long) were always very friendly (both had 1 female player and the rest male).

And who cares if there's only a couple of factions with wich females can "identify"... i don't think anyone can "identify" with space bugs/demonic monsters with tentacles all over the place.

As for the look of SoB, they have always been weird fetishy battle nuns, and that is a big part of their appeal. Again, that itself is not a problem, problem is that's pretty much only sort of female representation that there is. If there was a large variety of different sorts of female models, then some of them being somewhat fetishy would not be problem.

Though for balance we should have some male models in similar style. How about some male death cult assassins with skull codpieces, stiletto heels and leather corsets?

Esasb wrote:
None should take modern feminists seriously.

They are the ones that destroy franchises (see the SJW revolution in Marvel that saw multiple comics tank). They hammer and hammer on "problems" in say comics/card games/ tabletop games but they aren't the ones investing time and money in said hobbies. They're just a very vocal (and obnoxious) minority and they are the ones bringing toxicity.

The gaming clubs i have been to (i haven't been playing to long) were always very friendly (both had 1 female player and the rest male).

And who cares if there's only a couple of factions with wich females can "identify"... i don't think anyone can "identify" with space bugs/demonic monsters with tentacles all over the place.

And on top of that, the two females in my playgroup (out of 7 people total) play Nids and Necrons respectively they aren't concerned with playing females. They just think that space bugs are cute, and death robots are badass.

Esasb wrote:
None should take modern feminists seriously.

They are the ones that destroy franchises (see the SJW revolution in Marvel that saw multiple comics tank). They hammer and hammer on "problems" in say comics/card games/ tabletop games but they aren't the ones investing time and money in said hobbies. They're just a very vocal (and obnoxious) minority and they are the ones bringing toxicity.

The gaming clubs i have been to (i haven't been playing to long) were always very friendly (both had 1 female player and the rest male).

And who cares if there's only a couple of factions with wich females can "identify"... i don't think anyone can "identify" with space bugs/demonic monsters with tentacles all over the place.

As I've said, this isn't a place I'm going to discuss feminism as a movement as was said in the forward. But I do see a very emotionally charged argument you make (destroy, obnoxious), and as someone more interested in society as a whole and the power of representation and the years of research behind saying why it matters, I don't feel comfortable using terms like SJW or talking about what it does to a certain hobby or franchise. I more tried to outline the critical stance of, "Why does this offend people? Why are people feeling attacked by more female characters/need for representation?" and gave my two cents on why as well as the historical context of how through consumption and replication, women haven't felt like they have a place in many hobbies or interests.

It is regardless interesting to hear yours and everyone's opinions and I'm pleased to see people being so receptive to this thread, I was a bit worried of a "we have this thread every week" response haha.

Feminist40k Admin's response wrote:...and shaming other people for daring to enjoy the same hobby.

Poor WAAC players.
I think what many people thinks is "misoginy", or "bigotry", or "racism", is just people being overly angry on the internet. When you see that same person arguee like it is the end of the world about minutiae, you understand that people on the internet is prone to exaggerate, hyperbole, and to be overly agresive about everything.
Thats why I hate (See what I did here? ) Twitter. If you stay many time on the internet you can forgot that the real world is very different. And warhammer40k is no different. If you go to actual stores, tournaments, etc... you'll see that the internet community is not the real world community. And lets me say that both FeministActivist/SJW (As much as I hate to use that label) and AntiFeminist/Bigots/ETC... spend A LOT of time on the internet arguing agaisnt each other. And I'm very thankfull for that.

 Crimson wrote:
As for the look of SoB, they have always been weird fetishy battle nuns, and that is a big part of their appeal. Again, that itself is not a problem, problem is that's pretty much only sort of female representation that there is. If there was a large variety of different sorts of female models, then some of them being somewhat fetishy would not be problem.

Though for balance we should have some male models in similar style. How about some male death cult assassins with skull codpieces, stiletto heels and leather corsets?

I approve this message very much!

And hahaha, yes. Could go for that.

We need more Sigvald the Magnificent-like models.

This again?

 Galas wrote:

Feminist40k Admin's response wrote:...and shaming other people for daring to enjoy the same hobby.

Poor WAAC players.
I think what many people thinks is "misoginy", or "bigotry", or "racism", is just people being overly angry on the internet. When you see that same person arguee like it is the end of the world about minutiae, you understand that people on the internet is prone to exaggerate, hyperbole, and to be overly agresive about everything.
Thats why I hate (See what I did here? ) Twitter. If you stay many time on the internet you can forgot that the real world is very different. And warhammer40k is no different. If you go to actual stores, tournaments, etc... you'll see that the internet community is not the real world community. And lets me say that both FeministActivist/SJW (As much as I hate to use that label) and AntiFeminist/Bigots/ETC... spend A LOT of time on the internet arguing agaisnt each other. And I'm very thankfull for that.

Oh defintely, like, I wanted to leave my own gender out of this thread but hey ho that lasted a hot minute, very rarely have I gotten gak for being the only woman at a gaming event. The real world doesn't reflect the internet, and when it does, the response is usually laughter from others being "who is this douche?". But then again, people also don't start discussions on female representation and the male gaze at these events, cos it's not that relevent to our every day lives or how we can enjoy the hobby , as much as I do want these things changed. [Insert another useless degree joke].

Esasb wrote:
None should take modern feminists seriously.

They are the ones that destroy franchises (see the SJW revolution in Marvel that saw multiple comics tank). They hammer and hammer on "problems" in say comics/card games/ tabletop games but they aren't the ones investing time and money in said hobbies. They're just a very vocal (and obnoxious) minority and they are the ones bringing toxicity.

The gaming clubs i have been to (i haven't been playing to long) were always very friendly (both had 1 female player and the rest male).

And who cares if there's only a couple of factions with wich females can "identify"... i don't think anyone can "identify" with space bugs/demonic monsters with tentacles all over the place.

False equivalency - the existence of factions which “no one can identify with” is false, as there are plenty of people who love Tyranids and daemons.

And I’m sure there are plenty of people who care about the fact that there are no factions that they as a person can identify with. You not caring about half the population being unable to identify with any faction in an incredibly rich (and supposedly diverse) universe is unsettling and betrays a lack of empathy.

Re: the “SJW revolution”, it’s time to repost something I have said before.
This the root of the problem, people so used to seeing an all-majority cast in a media form, that when they see gay characters, or black/asian/indian/whatever characters, they immediately decide that it’s “pandering”, instead of thinking critically and wondering what a woman sees when they look at that game. Imagine looking at a game and all of the characters are minorities, or gay, and you can’t identify with any of them. That’s what women and minorities see on a daily basis. You’re not being discriminated against, you’re just not getting 100% representation at the cost of all else anymore.

 Crimson wrote:
Having male-only Space Marines due tradition in one thing (which I don't necessarily agree with, but still) but having no female models in factions that supposedly are mixed-gender (such as guard) is just inexcusable. Let's start with getting actual equal representation on the factions that should have it, and not focusing on the bloody Space Marines all the time. One faction being male-only would not be such an issue, if 90% of the marketing and fluff would not centre on that faction, while supposed mixed-gender armies are still represented solely by male models, and the female-only faction languishes neglected.

One thing I also despise is that when writing new fluff GW has established more male-only factions. SM thing was written a long time ago, I think it was a mistake, but there is massive resistance for changing it now. However, when Imperial Knights got their first codex, it was stated that Knight pilots were exclusively male too! Thankfully that has been abandoned in later iterations. I was also annoyed to read in the new Custodes codex, that the Custodians are recruited from sons of noble families. That was unnecessary, they could have at least left it vague. (I will definitely be converting some female Custodians regardless.)

Very well said!

Problem being on the Intertubes there is precious little debate but a metric fup ton of "listen and belief " Jokaero poop flinging and "alternative facts" by all sides

So maybe Lady Astartes would be nice but is it financially worthwhile for GW (or any company) to invest in wooing a minority at the risk of loosing an equal or greater number of frothering 'fans'

I know exactly who you are and I've been paying attention to you for some time.

Let me say first and foremost that I'm 100% in favor of female guard models (ANY new guard infantry sculpts would be great), and more female miniatures across the board. I don't favor 'female Space Marines' as an idea, but I also don't care what heads you want to glue on your space marines- use monkey heads for all I care, they're your models and you own them.

 kawaiipikachu wrote:
A note before reading from your author: I did this as part of examining the sociology of media which is a huge field of interest for me as part of my degree [insert useless degree joke], and regardless of your views on feminism, racism, sexism, etc etc please keep it friendly and maybe not debate these concepts as a whole in terms of whether they should exist or any stuff like that as this essay uses Feminist Theory, which isn’t the same as Feminism and Feminist Theory, like all theories – Marxist, Queer, etc – merely is a frame to see a piece of media or the world in for analysis. Equally I would love to hear from other academics or even just people’s opinions or maybe if this has just helped clarify the whole mess, because I honestly avoided this topic for a long time wanting to keep my hobby away from depressing things like politics. But if all form of media must have politique, then here we go. Buckle in.

I've watched you for some time, outside this website. And I am pretty sure you don't want debate or contrary opinions. There's a reason that everyone in your Facebook page agrees with one another, and it's because I've seen you post-block individuals and remove their comments if they so much as dared to disagree with you in even the most polite and respectful manner. Also, I've seen your members actually boot women- the people you claim to represent- for disagreeing with you or being friends with 'the wrong people'.

Don't take that as a personal attack, but a point of criticism. If you want discussions, you need to be prepared for people to do something other than agree with you. And here, being as polite as I can, I will do exactly that in some cases.

 kawaiipikachu wrote:
...However, it’s time to talk female Space Marines.

Yes, let's talk female Space Marines. I can gather at least a dozen websites that offer third-party bits and some of those are female heads. Literally nothing is stopping you from taking models you own and creating female Space Marines. And it doesn't matter if I like or dislike them, they're your models and not mine. It shouldn't matter.

 kawaiipikachu wrote:
Why were women portrayed one way and men the other? Arguably some of this is history – but they looked at how media shapes our beliefs, we consume it, and reproduce it (oh hi Marx).

First, women were generally portrayed a certain way because contrary to what some folks may believe, the differences between men and women go beyond our reproductive equipment and things on their chests. We are very different in a myriad of ways, and it all ties in to how we evolved as a species.

 kawaiipikachu wrote:
In the era Warhammer came about, gender coding was strict. If you grew up in the 90s like I imagine many people here did you know that from adverts. Boys adverts were explosions! Gross stuff! Trucks! Hot wheels! As were their TV shows and girls got ponies, Barbie, hundreds of baby dolls that all did the same things but were totally different and you need to buy them all. (Note, by era, I mean the era of strict gender roles notably the 50s til about 2010 depending who you ask. Things aren’t as aggressively boy/girl as before and many children born past 2010 see huge media changes). But the times they are a changing and with it so is media.

It was almost as if certain things appealed to certain genders. But I've never seen anyone take a GI Joe away from a girl because 'she's a girl'. I also don't know if you realize this, but maybe it's entirely possible that those things that boys like just didn't appeal to girls.

 kawaiipikachu wrote:
Many feminist theories, queer theories, Marxist theories, etc, deconstruct the idea of gender as a whole and call it non-existent. It is a social construct, but this holds other layers of complexity.

Anyone who says that gender is a Social Construct doesn't know what a Gender is and how deeply tied to your physiology it is. Yes, you can identify as another gender. There's a lot of reasons for that, but gender isn't something a bunch of angry white men in the 1950's made up to oppress women before they went home to slap their wives.

Funny how you guys always cite Marx, and he was banging his unpaid house-maid while his wife was grieving a stillbirth. And he then proceeded to essentially make her keep his bastard get outside of the house and sell him into child labor. I know it seems appealing and all, but if you're going to be a feminist you might want to choose a better class of human being to base your theories on.

 kawaiipikachu wrote:
I can say it means that it says a lot about our culture that there is a huge pushback against more women in Warhammer.

No, there isn't a pushback against women. There's a pushback against idealogues that come in to cause drama and conflict. Well-adjusted adults, including women, are finding no difficulty coming into this hobby and enjoying themselves. And just so you know? Percentage-wise, my 40k gaming group has more women than your feminist group. And more people of color, members of the LGBT community, and overall diversity.

It's almost as if the only people saying that there is a pushback are people that come in to cause drama and problems for the community. It's almost like people can put aside their differences and enjoy a game, and would rather not have people around that are there to start labeling people bigots and telling them how to think. Even simpler- it's just like we want to enjoy our games and friendships without having someone shoving identity politics down our throat and trying to turn the one little bit of recreation and fun that bring us together into an ideological battleground or socio-political platform.

What I'm trying to say is, it seems to me like the only people getting 'push-back' are probably getting it because they're annoying. I have difficulty believing that it's 'because they are women', especially since most of your group isn't women, and I've seen you lament that not enough women are coming forward to support you.

 kawaiipikachu wrote:
instead we’ve so internalised the believe that cars = men we can’t do it.

And this is where you have the problem. You like telling people what they think. Maybe you should let people have their own agency and stop dictating how they feel.

 kawaiipikachu wrote:
But why are all the models portrayed in a way that perpetuates the male gaze? And I mean that in the academic sense coined in 1974, not the internet buzzword. The male gaze applies to male and female figures in Warhammer, as seeing men represented more than women especially in certain roles is part of it. Yes, skull breast plates are badass and play into the part of me that wants to see this kind of style. But the way they’re designed, and knowing the creative team behind them and the audience they are marketed to, is arguably made for men, not women. Breast plates for women being domes to cover tits don’t work, and wouldn’t be realistic armour. They’d have to be flat. They are shown to have waists and loincloths. Again, there could be a huge psychology tangent about the impact representing women like this has but despite my major being psychology I will refrain.

In a game where guys are running around with shoulder pads the size of a tractor tire, you're questioning breasts on females in form-fitting armor? If I wanted 'realistic' I'd be playing Bolt-Action. And I'm pretty sure that there's nothing wrong with things being appealing to the opposite sex. Liking a well-shaped female miniature for aesthetic reasons isn't going to turn you into a woman-hating rape-junkie bigot, but if it does you were what well-adjusted adults refer to as "a severely unhinged mental case" and the core of your problems are deeper than plastic tiddies.

I'm just going to ask you, if you think representation is important and that female Space Marines would change all that...

...I would assume women are just charging into your FLGS to grab Eldar off the shelves.

...Or they're really big into Infinity, Warmahordes, and Guild-Ball.

Nope? Those tables look exactly like the Warhammer tables in terms to Guy/Gal ratio?

Huh. It's a crazy thought... but hear me out. Maybe women just aren't as drawn to this as men are, and maybe 'add girl models' isn't going to change much. Maybe women and men are equally complex and different in many ways, and sometimes our interests cross paths- but for the most part, they tend to be a bit different. Maybe we're not just interchangeable people that just happen to have different reproductive equipment.

I mean, I was a GI Joe era kid. You ever see girls flocking to snag Scarlett, Lady Jaye, Baroness, Jinx, and Cover Girl off the shelves? Not so much. Some do, but not many. And 'making a girl figure' isn't the end-all and be-all.

Maybe 'representation' isn't as important as you say. After all, the overwhelming majority of SoB players were males. You're even a fan of an all-female Tyranid concept and you're a guy (trust me, I know- I saw when you bought the new Codex and commented on this). It seems to not be such a big deal to men, maybe we should stop and consider the fact that women aren't much different in that respect and treating them like stupid children and telling them "If one of these looks like you, then you'll like it!" It's crazy, but maybe to enjoy something we don't need to self-project onto little miniatures. I should know, I play Infinity and that game is almost half female models- and the groups of gamers are still about the same, no swarm of women rushing to it.

And the wildest idea I can come up with, is that honestly- I've never been in a gaming group that didn't have a good handful of women. Today, I'm going up against a Thousand Sons player, who is a woman and she loves Space Marine lore. My other female friend plays Necrons, and one particular lady I know is a huge World Eaters fan. I've never once been told, "I'd play that if it had women like me in it". So, perhaps, and hear me out...

...maybe if there's a lack of women in your gaming groups, it has less to do with the models...

...maybe it's you.

Food for thought, W.R.

Oh, and the bizarre anti-female attitude in the community is quite real. I'm sure it is really only small amount of people, but vocal enough that it is really off putting.

It surfaces every time when someone suggest creating female Space Marine chapter or posts pictures of models converted as such. There will always be a deluge of people telling them that this cannot be done, it does not match the fluff etc. Even though these comments may remain somewhat civil (which they always do not,) it is still telling. I mean I'm pretty sure most people creating female space marines know what the official fluff say, they just choose disregard it. The same thing doesn't happen with other fluff violations. People post 'loyalist World Eaters' and stuff like that all the time, without bunch of people jumping on them and telling how they're violating the canon.

Wait so the OP is male or female? Ohm the drama...

 Crimson wrote:
It surfaces every time when someone suggest creating female Space Marine chapter or posts pictures of models converted as such. There will always be a deluge of people telling them that this cannot be done, it does not match the fluff etc. Even though these comments may remain somewhat civil (which they always do not,) it is still telling. I mean I'm pretty sure most people creating female space marines know what the official fluff say, they just choose disregard it. The same thing doesn't happen with other fluff violations. People post 'loyalist World Eaters' and stuff like that all the time, without bunch of people jumping on them and telling how they're violating the canon.

I have seen people attack with the same entusiasm female space marine conversions as Dark Angel Deathwing painted in green For some people, the lore is the lore, and they can't withstand that the models of other people are their models. Obviously some will attack female space marines with the wrath of a thousand suns but... they are such a minority that giving them attention is only done for two things:
-To mock them
-To push an agenda.

When I asked about background for a female Custodes, to do as a special character, as a conversion, I had 0 rage coments here on dakkadakka. And the thread was 2-3 pages long.

 Galas wrote:
Wait so the OP is male or female? Ohm the drama...

Male, and I know their name and have seen quite a bit of the issues they've caused in other groups. Let's just say that this individual has been told by several pages and groups to 'can it' when trying to turn 40k pages into SocJus/Marxist Theory debate platforms.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Anyone who says that gender is a Social Construct doesn't know what a Gender is and how deeply tied to your physiology it is.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/
It totally is a social construct.

That males and females like different things is almost completely due the upbring and the society.

 Crimson wrote:
That males and females like different things is almost completely due the upbring and the society.

Or perhaps it's because we're sexually dimorphic species and work according to our instincts that have been hardwired through millions of years of evolution to lean toward certain things.

So, yeah.

As I said, it's more than just biology. So, feel free to rage about how it's just some genitals that make the difference.

 Crimson wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Anyone who says that gender is a Social Construct doesn't know what a Gender is and how deeply tied to your physiology it is.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/
It totally is a social construct.

That males and females like different things is almost completely due the upbring and the society.

So men and women have the exact same hormones and we are exactly alike when it comes to bodies? Because all this is proving is that there's no difference to look when it comes to the brain, but medically we've learned that there's massive differences when it comes to the medical needs for a man or woman. You wouldn't treat one the exact same as the other when it comes to various medical reasons.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Wait so the OP is male or female? Ohm the drama...

Male, and I know their name and have seen quite a bit of the issues they've caused in other groups. Let's just say that this individual has been told by several pages and groups to 'can it' when trying to turn 40k pages into SocJus/Marxist Theory debate platforms.

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??????????????

K then. This is actually my first time on a Warhammer forum or group too. Just, uh, yeah. I hope this is a sincere you mistaking me for someone else and not some weird kind of attack.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Anyone who says that gender is a Social Construct doesn't know what a Gender is and how deeply tied to your physiology it is.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/
It totally is a social construct.

That males and females like different things is almost completely due the upbring and the society.

So men and women have the exact same hormones and we are exactly alike when it comes to bodies? Because all this is proving is that there's no difference to look when it comes to the brain, but medically we've learned that there's massive differences when it comes to the medical needs for a man or woman. You wouldn't treat one the exact same as the other when it comes to various medical treatments.

Yeah, I'll disagree with that. Even if Brains are exactly the same, males and females aren't. You just need to look at the animal kingdom. Yeah we are past that, but in the "Nature vs Nurture" debate I'm positioned into the middle. I know in nordic countries the normal ideology is that nearly everything is just Nurture. But I disagree with that statement (Just like I disagree that everything is Nature)