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Asmodios wrote:
No girls allowed

>sister of battle

Wildly unsupported, incredibly expensive, all-metal, no updates for years.

>sisters of silence

Wildly unsupported. The Custodes (released at the same time and in the same book) have a 40k Codex, five plastic kits, seven resin vehicles, and three extra resin units. The Sisters of Silence have one plastic kit, one conversion kit, and one resin vehicle representing a third of the units that rules exist for.

>imperial guard

All GW models are male. Third-party alternatives exist.

>elder

Even distribution in theory. In practice you get one in five Guardians/Dire Avengers and the Banshees.

>dark elder

The success story. Seven years ago during the range overhaul their range got near-parity and the game didn't explode, die, or get taken over by evil feminists who want nobody to have fun. And strong (if circumstantial) evidence that if the above four armies got more models/more female models everything would be fine.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Humanity is f**cked. Like, literally on the verge of complete annihilation. And their complete annihilation was the only thing that could have 'saved' the galaxy from chaos. Every little thing humanity endures is the best that can possibly be done to ensure survival. That includes annihilating entire planets, conscripting teenagers, sending psykers to be sacrificed, everything is awful.

There is NO other option. There is no 'let's reason with our enemies'. There is no, 'maybe something else would work better'.

What you're calling 'fascism' is only 'justified' here because it's a tool of last resort.

That's how desperate humanity is

This is exactly how nazis think. This is what nazis believe white people face. This is why I'm saying that the setting justifies fascism. I mean holy dang, people, I've followed 40K's developments for over seventeen years now, I know what the background says. I even collect Rogue Trader and 2nd edition stuff because I like tracing the game's history. As I keep saying, it isn't a problem that the Imperium is evil. The problem is that the setting justifies its evil. A much more compelling and tragic 40K would be one where the Emperor was ultimately a fool for setting out into the galazy with conquest and hostility and where the Imperium is doomed to fail because it denies humanity in a stupid attempt to protect it. Trying to talk out your differences being the mark of naiveity and the only possible thing to do for survival of a pure humanity being the extermination of entire races is, screamingly obviously, precisely what fascists believe. Shouldering a grim burden that stains your soul but secures a future for your children is how fascists romanticise murdering minorities.


Once again, the problem isn't that the Imperium is an evil mess because having it be a sort of dark mirror to the Star Trek Federation is a perfectly decent way of explaining why any faction could fight any faction in the tabletop game. The problem is that it's portrayed as pushed by necessity to exterminate aliens and freethinkers. The 40K galaxy is shown as being how fascists believe the world works, while still putting the Imperium in the main character and often the hero role.

 Crimson wrote:

Do I want fundamentally change lore? I personally don't think that female marines are needed as long as female representation is increased in other factions and those other factions get more equal share of the limelight. But I don't think that having female marines would fundamentally change the lore. It is ultimately quite a minor thing, I've been in this hobby for decades, and the lore has been altered and retconned countless of times. Also, new models get released all the time. Why is it a problem if some of them are female. Also, acknowledging that institutional sexism/racism is a thing is not same as thinking that players/designers are racist sexist (at least not in a way those words are normally understood.)

The glaring issue here is that female representation in war settings is not necessarily a desirable thing. Another issue is that institutionalized racism/sexism is a heavily debated topic that is by no means settled with most evidence pointing to it being entirely fabricated.

Rosebuddy wrote:


This is exactly how nazis think. This is what nazis believe white people face. This is why I'm saying that the setting justifies fascism. I mean holy dang, people, I've followed 40K's developments for over seventeen years now, I know what the background says. I even collect Rogue Trader and 2nd edition stuff because I like tracing the game's history. As I keep saying, it isn't a problem that the Imperium is evil. The problem is that the setting justifies its evil. A much more compelling and tragic 40K would be one where the Emperor was ultimately a fool for setting out into the galazy with conquest and hostility and where the Imperium is doomed to fail because it denies humanity in a stupid attempt to protect it. Trying to talk out your differences being the mark of naiveity and the only possible thing to do for survival of a pure humanity being the extermination of entire races is, screamingly obviously, precisely what fascists believe. Shouldering a grim burden that stains your soul but secures a future for your children is how fascists romanticise murdering minorities.


Once again, the problem isn't that the Imperium is an evil mess because having it be a sort of dark mirror to the Star Trek Federation is a perfectly decent way of explaining why any faction could fight any faction in the tabletop game. The problem is that it's portrayed as pushed by necessity to exterminate aliens and freethinkers. The 40K galaxy is shown as being how fascists believe the world works, while still putting the Imperium in the main character and often the hero role.

Even if we agree on all of that, why is it an issue? Do you think people will adopt a similar mindset in the real world by being exposed to this kind of fiction?

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Humanity is f**cked. Like, literally on the verge of complete annihilation. And their complete annihilation was the only thing that could have 'saved' the galaxy from chaos. Every little thing humanity endures is the best that can possibly be done to ensure survival. That includes annihilating entire planets, conscripting teenagers, sending psykers to be sacrificed, everything is awful.

There is NO other option. There is no 'let's reason with our enemies'. There is no, 'maybe something else would work better'.

What you're calling 'fascism' is only 'justified' here because it's a tool of last resort.

That's how desperate humanity is

This is exactly how nazis think. This is what nazis believe white people face. This is why I'm saying that the setting justifies fascism. I mean holy dang, people, I've followed 40K's developments for over seventeen years now, I know what the background says. I even collect Rogue Trader and 2nd edition stuff because I like tracing the game's history. As I keep saying, it isn't a problem that the Imperium is evil. The problem is that the setting justifies its evil. A much more compelling and tragic 40K would be one where the Emperor was ultimately a fool for setting out into the galazy with conquest and hostility and where the Imperium is doomed to fail because it denies humanity in a stupid attempt to protect it. Trying to talk out your differences being the mark of naiveity and the only possible thing to do for survival of a pure humanity being the extermination of entire races is, screamingly obviously, precisely what fascists believe. Shouldering a grim burden that stains your soul but secures a future for your children is how fascists romanticise murdering minorities.


Once again, the problem isn't that the Imperium is an evil mess because having it be a sort of dark mirror to the Star Trek Federation is a perfectly decent way of explaining why any faction could fight any faction in the tabletop game. The problem is that it's portrayed as pushed by necessity to exterminate aliens and freethinkers. The 40K galaxy is shown as being how fascists believe the world works, while still putting the Imperium in the main character and often the hero role.

There is no problem. You are creating a problem where none existed. You do see the irony?

You guys realize this very argument is as old as ancient Greece, right?

One side shuts out emotion and looks at things like consequence, individual action, logic, and theory. They turn a blind eye to the validity of the other faction because there is no place for emotion or feeling or perception in a world of evidence and logic.

The other side rules off of emotion, using perception and passion as weapons. They do not need to prove anything, as their whole argument does not lie in scientific method but in showmanship. Rally the masses and your perception becomes truth.

It is pretty clear which side I am on, and it is the side I am naturally drawn to due to how my mind works. I am actually behavior blind and have a really hard time being affected on that level, and I have a hard time affecting people on that level.

But, it does boil down to this: both sides are valid in their own circles. The cult of reason will usually identify with each other because they can follow the thinking pattern of the one suggesting the idea. The cult of emotion will do the same to their own.

So are there problems with 40k that validates feminism's presence? Probably, I don't know. Is there rampant sexism and disparaging going on at a corporate level? I hardly think so. So let's get to the root of the issue: what do the supporters of feminist 40k have a problem with? Be succinct, because your target audience here seems to be ill swayed by appeals to emotion. If you want us on your side, please speak to us in a manner that we are used to: cite evidence, stop white knighting people and bring them forward to testify (testimonials are really hard to ignore), show us policy or action that indicates things were done for a reason purely meant to disparage a gender or a culture.

I've gone as far as I can to appeal to your emotional needs, I've demonstrated how 40k is not nearly the testosterone ridden dump that your group is claiming it is. I even referenced WOMEN in the hobby doing well online in YouTube. I've shown how you can sate that representation hunger by modeling your own things for your own desires, with pictures.

All I've received in return is dismissal and rampant ideological attacks that don't really demonstrate why Warhammer 40K needs you. It MAY demonstrate why SOCIETY needs you, but 40k is a gaming hobby, not a culture or society.

So I told you how I hear and process information. I am aware of how you all would normally like to frame it, but my burden of proof is different (not higher or more correct, just different). So do me a favor: sell me your basket of goods in terms I can understand. If you can do that, then you'll have a supporter (and probably many more, here). If you cannot effectively demonstrate your point on why we need Feminism in Warhammer 40K, then I suppose Warhammer 40K does not need feminism.

Table wrote:
...40k is hardly a monolithic institution. Its a very small niche hobby that has been around for decades. There is nothing wrong with the people who enjoy said niche hobby wanting to keep it as something they enjoy. If someone does not enjoy the hobby or setting, please by all means I hope they find one they do enjoy. No one is getting hurt. No one is turning into KKK recruits because of 40k or all male space marines.

And that is what is so reprehensible about what the OP is doing. Not everything need fit your political view point. Let dogs be dogs and cats be cats.

Institutional inertia is proportional to the size of the institution, yes, but it exists anywhere you put three people in a room and tell them "you're an organization now". GW isn't not releasing female models because of some intentional desire to keep women out, it's not releasing female models because whatever risk/benefit analysis they've done says it isn't worth the effort.

As to "there is nothing wrong with the people who enjoy said niche hobby wanting to keep it as something they enjoy" I'm going to expand:

There is nothing wrong with people asking for stuff that already exists in the lore already to get more representation on the table.

There is something wrong with people trying to impose strict moral sanctions on a game without understanding it.

These are different arguments, and asking for plastic Battle Sisters or female Guardsmen doesn't automatically make someone a reprehensible SJW out to destroy your hobby.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Claims others are being offended
>offended about plastic toy models
>offended about fictional universe
Muh sides

Uh... misfire?

I'm not offended by models or the fictional universe. I like it as it is. And I'm down with more being added. Not... sure where you're going with this.

Yes, my bad I was on my mobile and misread the name. It's hard to follow a fast moving thread when I'm not at my computer.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
You guys realize this very argument is as old as ancient Greece, right?

One side shuts out emotion and looks at things like consequence, individual action, logic, and theory. They turn a blind eye to the validity of the other faction because there is no place for emotion or feeling or perception in a world of evidence and logic.

The other side rules off of emotion, using perception and passion as weapons. They do not need to prove anything, as their whole argument does not lie in scientific method but in showmanship. Rally the masses and your perception becomes truth.

It is pretty clear which side I am on, and it is the side I am naturally drawn to due to how my mind works. I am actually behavior blind and have a really hard time being affected on that level, and I have a hard time affecting people on that level.

But, it does boil down to this: both sides are valid in their own circles. The cult of reason will usually identify with each other because they can follow the thinking pattern of the one suggesting the idea. The cult of emotion will do the same to their own.

So are there problems with 40k that validates feminism's presence? Probably, I don't know. Is there rampant sexism and disparaging going on at a corporate level? I hardly think so. So let's get to the root of the issue: what do the supporters of feminist 40k have a problem with? Be succinct, because your target audience here seems to be ill swayed by appeals to emotion. If you want us on your side, please speak to us in a manner that we are used to: cite evidence, stop white knighting people and bring them forward to testify (testimonials are really hard to ignore), show us policy or action that indicates things were done for a reason purely meant to disparage a gender or a culture.

I've gone as far as I can to appeal to your emotional needs, I've demonstrated how 40k is not nearly the testosterone ridden dump that your group is claiming it is. I even referenced WOMEN in the hobby doing well online in YouTube. I've shown how you can sate that representation hunger by modeling your own things for your own desires, with pictures.

All I've received in return is dismissal and rampant ideological attacks that don't really demonstrate why Warhammer 40K needs you. It MAY demonstrate why SOCIETY needs you, but 40k is a gaming hobby, not a culture or society.

So I told you how I hear and process information. I am aware of how you all would normally like to frame it, but my burden of proof is different (not higher or more correct, just different). So do me a favor: sell me your basket of goods in terms I can understand. If you can do that, then you'll have a supporter (and probably many more, here). If you cannot effectively demonstrate your point on why we need Feminism in Warhammer 40K, then I suppose Warhammer 40K does not need feminism.

"My side is clearly the logical one, the other one is based on feelings and emotions!" is, indeed, as old as ancient Greece itself.

Table wrote:

40k is hardly a monolithic institution. Its a very small niche hobby that has been around for decades. There is nothing wrong with the people who enjoy said niche hobby wanting to keep it as something they enjoy. If someone does not enjoy the hobby or setting, please by all means I hope they find one they do enjoy. No one is getting hurt. No one is turning into KKK recruits because of 40k or all male space marines.

And that is what is so reprehensible about what the OP is doing. Not everything need fit your political view point. Let dogs be dogs and cats be cats.

But thing is, it is those people's hobby too, and they're allowed to express their opinions as well.

It is like the plot advancement. I didn't want it, but a lot of people kept whining for plot progression and now we got a loyalist Primarch back, new super marines and the galaxy shred in twain. I didn't want any of that, I wanted to maintain the status quo. But I'm not gonna say those people who hoped for plot to advance had no right to express their views. They had the right, they probably were in the majority, and GW listened them.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
...So let's get to the root of the issue: what do the supporters of feminist 40k have a problem with?...

1. The general reluctance of GW to put female characters, many of whom already exist in the lore, onto the table.

2. The lack of support and updates for the female models that do exist on the table.

That's the center of the problem. Anything else I've ever seen is tangential, focused on complaining about the setting-wide lack of human dignity, or an inference about GW's attitude that harks back to the first two.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Table wrote:
...40k is hardly a monolithic institution. Its a very small niche hobby that has been around for decades. There is nothing wrong with the people who enjoy said niche hobby wanting to keep it as something they enjoy. If someone does not enjoy the hobby or setting, please by all means I hope they find one they do enjoy. No one is getting hurt. No one is turning into KKK recruits because of 40k or all male space marines.

And that is what is so reprehensible about what the OP is doing. Not everything need fit your political view point. Let dogs be dogs and cats be cats.

Institutional inertia is proportional to the size of the institution, yes, but it exists anywhere you put three people in a room and tell them "you're an organization now". GW isn't not releasing female models because of some intentional desire to keep women out, it's not releasing female models because whatever risk/benefit analysis they've done says it isn't worth the effort.

As to "there is nothing wrong with the people who enjoy said niche hobby wanting to keep it as something they enjoy" I'm going to expand:

There is nothing wrong with people asking for stuff that already exists in the lore already to get more representation on the table.

There is something wrong with people trying to impose strict moral sanctions on a game without understanding it.

These are different arguments, and asking for plastic Battle Sisters or female Guardsmen doesn't automatically make someone a reprehensible SJW out to destroy your hobby.

I will never understand this "representation" business. Do I identify with my Thousand Sons army? Or my NIght Lords army? Nope. This is why the introduction of identity politics into a game is so toxic. If anyone is so shallow that they can only identify with gender then the problem is them. 40k has TONS of diversity. Just not the kind the OP wants. Which is fine, he can find a game that provides him with what he wants. If one does not exist then they can make it.

This thread is done, don't make more threads on Feminism in 40K for at least a couple of days, so all parties who broke the rules in this thread have time to get their warnings. Seeing as I've so far had to issue 3 for the last 2 pages of the thread, that may take a while