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I've been toying for this list for a while, it has tons of bodies on the ground and a few tricks up its sleeve.

My meta is highly competitive, so the list is meant to be used in such an environment. No ITC though, so progressive scoring is not a thing, objectives only count at the end of the battle. The missions are generally those of the rulebook, with Eternal War ones being more common than Maelstrom.



Battalion (CSM)

Slaanesh daemon prince (iron warriors), wings, 2x talons, warlord: cold and bitter, relic: intoxicating elixir
khorne warpsmith (world eaters), combi-bolter, relic: brass collar
40 slaanesh cultists (iron warriors)
40 slaanesh cultists (iron warriors)
10 slaanesh cultists (iron warriors)

Battalion (khorne daemons)

khorne daemon prince, wings, axe, relic: skullreaver
Blood throne
30 bloodletters, daemonic icon, instrument of chaos
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters

Battalion (nurgle daemons)

nurgle daemon prince, wings, 2x talons
poxbringer
spoilpox scrivener
3 nurglings
3 nurglings
3 nurglings
30 plaguebearers, daemonic icon, instrument of chaos


The big bloodletters unit will deepstrike with the blood throne (hopefully nurglings can secure my "landing zone" from enemy infiltrators), while the plaguebearers will advance and bubblewrap the Khorne and Nurgle DPs (icon + scrivener make them deceptively fast). They will likely also be protected by Miasma of Pestilence.

The Slaanesh DP moves forward with the two big cultists units making them immune to morale, and can use Warptime to surge one of them forward surprisingly fast. I can also "recycle" those units with the Tide of Traitors stratagem, fly near one of them, move it with Warptime and tie enemies up from unexpected angles.

Finally, the warpsmith is there to provide psychic defense: enemy psykers that are not Farseers will think twice before casting powers within 24" of him, since if I dispel them, they'll take 2D3 mortal wounds (thanks to the Daemonic Possession daemon stratagem). He also allows me to use the Scorn of Sorcery stratagem if a certain psychic power absolutely must not go off. He's a cheap HQ that can also dish out some damage if needs be, but he's mainly there for the collar. It prevents me from getting Legion traits, but that's not a huge loss compared to what he brings to the table (and yes, not all armies have psykers, but most competitive ones do).

The list has 6 CPs to play with after I buy additional relics, use the Banner of Blood stratagem and deep-strike the blood throne and bloodletters.

So, that's it. Any thoughts?

So... your whole plan hinges on Letters to carry you through? Seems like thats really the only heavy hitter in the list. I mean, it'll be hard to kill all of those models for many lists, but seems like it needs more... punch

 Zid wrote:
So... your whole plan hinges on Letters to carry you through? Seems like thats really the only heavy hitter in the list. I mean, it'll be hard to kill all of those models for many lists, but seems like it needs more... punch

I have 3 Daemon Princes too. One of which with 8 S8 attacks, and the other that hits almost as hard as a Bloodthirster thanks to Skullreaver (on average, 20 wounds to an IK...). Plaguebearers can do some damage with the Scrivener + Poxbringer as well. Agains other hordes, even massed autoguns can do something (on average, 31 dead GEK at short range).

But more importantly, most missions are objective-based. I don't need to table my opponent (and it's highly unlikely he will table me), I just need to win. And everything that's not a Character has Objective Secured...

in a competitive level if you play chaos you must play obiterators, i dont see any in your list, a whole korne detachment wont work, i play in Italy too i know the meta , you cant remove cheap screens you cant remove easily anti deep strike units, for me you can do better with demons+chaos, actually i play demons+chaos too, but i play 9 oblys+ Dp or lord (depend by list), nurglings and horror bomb supported by psyonic/characters (+1 to wound rr 1 to hit and wound 3++ save. That said is not a bad list, you have lot of bodies and at obj you can have some edge, but honestly if you play just at eternal wars, again ,u dont play at high competitive level cause at any tournament (the only real competitive stuff which matter) you go you face at least 1-2 maelstrom mission.

Teschio wrote:

 Zid wrote:
So... your whole plan hinges on Letters to carry you through? Seems like thats really the only heavy hitter in the list. I mean, it'll be hard to kill all of those models for many lists, but seems like it needs more... punch

I have 3 Daemon Princes too. One of which with 8 S8 attacks, and the other that hits almost as hard as a Bloodthirster thanks to Skullreaver (on average, 20 wounds to an IK...). Plaguebearers can do some damage with the Scrivener + Poxbringer as well. Agains other hordes, even massed autoguns can do something (on average, 31 dead GEK at short range).

But more importantly, most missions are objective-based. I don't need to table my opponent (and it's highly unlikely he will table me), I just need to win. And everything that's not a Character has Objective Secured...

So you plan to stand around on objectives and survive with recycling cultists and Plaguebearers?

The issue I see, that Blackmage echoes, is that even if you are an objective based army, not all missions are obj based; you need a way to neuter key elements of any army you face to ensure that you can survive and win on objectives. Other than your Plaguebearers, the rest of your army is pretty easy to kill or grind down. I'm not saying its not a good list, I think Bloodletters are awesome, as are Demon Princes and Nurglings, but I go into my list building planning on trying to kill as much as possible with a few units for holding objectives. Do with that what you will.

I was tempted to agree with the detractors here, but the more I look at it you seem to have a very difficult list to pin down. Your DP's are all fast and pack enough punch to put down a lot of various threats in a hurry if they need to. And the warpsmith is a good add too. If you could somehow squeeze in some Obliterators as mentioned above, I think you'd get a lot of extra mileage out of that. And having 6CP left over after buying strats and relics is very nice as well. I think you'll do well with this list.

I've had great success with the following list myself.

Alpha legion batallion

Exalted champion, Hydra Blade and chainswords
Daemon Prince, Khorne, two talons

40 cultists with hand to hand weapons
40 cultists with hand to hand weapons
10 cultists with hand to hand weapons

Khorne Daemon battalion

Daemon Prince, Axe, wings
Foot Herald

3x 30 bloodletters standard/musician

Chaos Battalion

Abbadon

Juggernaut Khorne Herald

3 units nurglings


It gives me three advanced placements with 5 advancing units. Abbadons's fearless bubble is 12" allowing greater movement. It also has 14 command points for redeployment and deep striking purposes.

Even if they counter with nurglings/scouts I still can claim a swath of the deployment as an avenue to push cultists forward. A very important tactic to keep the cultists or bloodletters alive is to only charge one unit with more than one nearby. The unit is so wide and massive you can envelop another, non charged, unit and pile in and pin them on their turn. They cannot shoot them and have to immediately deal with 4 point cultists or 7 point bloodletters.

So far in games the hardest fight was against full blown Cadia where they were able to reveal the banner each turn. I won going away progressive scoring but got mostly caved in. There is so much board presence that I was able to stay the warlord on a dreadknight grandmaster because he had no physical space to deepstrike anywhere.

I've yet to lose, though I have drawn once, with the list since 180 infantry that are able to be most everywhere and tie up anything is hard for most lists to fathom. There is also no one to shoot at aside, again, for inexpensive chaff. Midgame I tend to have stuff tangled up and unable to move, or have simply overwhelmed everything but a castle and are so far ahead on points they have fun blowing away models for no effect.

blackmage wrote:in a competitive level if you play chaos you must play obiterators, i dont see any in your list, a whole korne detachment wont work, i play in Italy too i know the meta , you cant remove cheap screens you cant remove easily anti deep strike units, for me you can do better with demons+chaos, actually i play demons+chaos too, but i play 9 oblys+ Dp or lord (depend by list), nurglings and horror bomb supported by psyonic/characters (+1 to wound rr 1 to hit and wound 3++ save. That said is not a bad list, you have lot of bodies and at obj you can have some edge, but honestly if you play just at eternal wars, again ,u dont play at high competitive level cause at any tournament (the only real competitive stuff which matter) you go you face at least 1-2 maelstrom mission.

In most decent tournaments around here there's generally 2 eternal wars and one maelstrom missions (2/1 is much rarer). And this list does surprisingly well in maelstrom too, with Contact Lost being the easiest one and Deadlock being the hardest: with the huge footprint and ObsSec of my units, objective-related tactical objectives are easy to get, and with my hard hitters all moving 12" with Fly, and even Warptime if needed, I can complete the objectives that require you to kill something too.

Oblis are nice, and I've used them too, (including Nurgle ones protected by a Feculent Gnarlmaw for Sv 0+ and shooting after falling back), but I think you need tons of them to be effective (at least 3 units, I've used up to 5). I disagree that they are the only way to play chaos though. Especially because in this list the non-daemon section is there just for cultists that don't test morale and the tricks with the Warpsmith (that thing alone can neuter armies that rely on psychic powers like Eldar). The horror bomb can be good, it's easier to pull off but also much less powerful, imho. I need some more punch, horrors just won't cut it. I also like being able to tie up multiple units in assault, if I wipe screens out with my assault (and I should...) I can consolidate towards other units, then use the Frenetic Bloodlust stratagem to move 6" more, forcing muliple units to disengage. Expensive, but if needed I have the CPs to do it. It also requires more careful positioning, and I find it more stimulating than just throwing dice.

That said, the list is far from perfect, and suffers vs some units (bloat drones, for example), but no list has zero counters, or everybody would play it

Zid wrote:
So you plan to stand around on objectives and survive with recycling cultists and Plaguebearers?

The issue I see, that Blackmage echoes, is that even if you are an objective based army, not all missions are obj based; you need a way to neuter key elements of any army you face to ensure that you can survive and win on objectives. Other than your Plaguebearers, the rest of your army is pretty easy to kill or grind down. I'm not saying its not a good list, I think Bloodletters are awesome, as are Demon Princes and Nurglings, but I go into my list building planning on trying to kill as much as possible with a few units for holding objectives. Do with that what you will.

No, my plan is to grab objecives while tying things up in melee so they have to fall back, while at the same time striking surgically with my DPs to remove the threats to my gameplan. I can have a single cultist within 3" of an objective, and daisy-chain the rest of the unit to engage the opponent in melee, for example. It's not just about surviving the opponent, it's about screwing his game plan. This list, by the way, works heavily with disruption: it makes the phychic phase suicidal, it blocks movements of non-fliers with the huge footprints of units that just won't die (and are dirt cheap anyway), it ties multiple units in combat, even without charging all of them, so you have to fall back, it strikes with flying DPs (of which the khorne one can single-handedly remove most threats) where it's needed. Another indirect form of distruption is making some anti-tank weapons basically useless: the only good targets for those would be characters, but you can't target them if they are surronded... so, you end up shooting those expensive lascannons or meltas to bloodletters, or at best nurglings (at least they have multiple wounds...). Since most armies pack weapons like those, you are effecively making the enemy waste points. I mean, vs a bloodletter, a lasgun is better than a lascannon or a meltagun!

Yes, tabling the opponent or killing most of his army is fun, but in the end, what counts is winning (I did say the aim was to be competitive...). For fun games, I would not use this list, because I know it can be frustrating to play against.

Of the missions used in tournaments, Maelstrom ones are good for me (most tactical objecives are surprisingly easy to achieve), and of the Eternal War missions, only No Mercy and The Relic don't use objectives. However, in No Mercy most of my units are either quite survivable, or are Characters that can't be targeted. It can be very easy or very hard depending on the opponent. The Relic is not impossible either, since I have a lot of infantries that can hold it, some of which are quite survivable. And Warpime can give me an edge in getting those cultists to the relic asap.

Teschio wrote:
I've been toying for this list for a while, it has tons of bodies on the ground and a few tricks up its sleeve.

My meta is highly competitive, so the list is meant to be used in such an environment. No ITC though, so progressive scoring is not a thing, objectives only count at the end of the battle. The missions are generally those of the rulebook, with Eternal War ones being more common than Maelstrom.



Battalion (CSM)

Slaanesh daemon prince (iron warriors), wings, 2x talons, warlord: cold and bitter, relic: intoxicating elixir
khorne warpsmith (world eaters), combi-bolter, relic: brass collar
40 slaanesh cultists (iron warriors)
40 slaanesh cultists (iron warriors)
10 slaanesh cultists (iron warriors)

Battalion (khorne daemons)

khorne daemon prince, wings, axe, relic: skullreaver
Blood throne
30 bloodletters, daemonic icon, instrument of chaos
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters

Battalion (nurgle daemons)

nurgle daemon prince, wings, 2x talons
poxbringer
spoilpox scrivener
3 nurglings
3 nurglings
3 nurglings
30 plaguebearers, daemonic icon, instrument of chaos


The big bloodletters unit will deepstrike with the blood throne (hopefully nurglings can secure my "landing zone" from enemy infiltrators), while the plaguebearers will advance and bubblewrap the Khorne and Nurgle DPs (icon + scrivener make them deceptively fast). They will likely also be protected by Miasma of Pestilence.

The Slaanesh DP moves forward with the two big cultists units making them immune to morale, and can use Warptime to surge one of them forward surprisingly fast. I can also "recycle" those units with the Tide of Traitors stratagem, fly near one of them, move it with Warptime and tie enemies up from unexpected angles.

Finally, the warpsmith is there to provide psychic defense: enemy psykers that are not Farseers will think twice before casting powers within 24" of him, since if I dispel them, they'll take 2D3 mortal wounds (thanks to the Daemonic Possession daemon stratagem). He also allows me to use the Scorn of Sorcery stratagem if a certain psychic power absolutely must not go off. He's a cheap HQ that can also dish out some damage if needs be, but he's mainly there for the collar. It prevents me from getting Legion traits, but that's not a huge loss compared to what he brings to the table (and yes, not all armies have psykers, but most competitive ones do).

The list has 6 CPs to play with after I buy additional relics, use the Banner of Blood stratagem and deep-strike the blood throne and bloodletters.

So, that's it. Any thoughts?

may i ask what kind of opponents you usually face and what's ur general strategy for example against Alaitoc eldars with wave+reapers spam? Are really enough 6Cp's? Maybe i will try your list but i would like add a bit of fire support, thanks

 blackmage wrote:

may i ask what kind of opponents you usually face and what's ur general strategy for example against Alaitoc eldars with wave+reapers spam? Are really enough 6Cp's? Maybe i will try your list but i would like add a bit of fire support, thanks

The meta around here is pretty varied... Eldar (of course... this includes Ynnari too, or a mix of the two), Guard (sometimes in Imperium soup, especially with the recent addition of Custodes), Chaos in its various form, Space Marines (mainly Guilliman gunlines), a few Tyranids, even the odd Ork or Tau. I have yet to face AdMech, GKs or Blood/Dark Angels since their codexes came out.

I have to say, this list is theorycrafting. I haven't had the time to test it yet (too busy at work lately, hopefully I'll try it next week), and it's quite different from what I usually play. So, are 6 CPs enough? I have no idea I posted it here just to get some suggestions about it before I bring it to the table. I believe it might work, but to be honest I don't have evidence yet to back that up. I'd like to point out that 6 CPs is what I get after all the "mandatory" stratagems and extra relics, though. And I can have 7, if I don't particularly need Intoxicating Elixir.

As for Eldars, they lack screening units or ways to interfere with deepstrike, so I'm counting on the bloodletters to do some work and hopefully tie things up in combat, while the rest of the army rushes forward. Yvraine should fear the Brass Collar, if I dispel her Word of the Phoenix she has 33% of dying outright (and bringing a few more models to the grave). Spiritseers would die 66% of the times, and for Warlocks I wouldn't even have to use Daemonic Possession... The Khorne DP can kill a serpent in one phase easily, and with a large footprint his serpents can't really tie things up in combat (I mean, they can, but I can Pile In and Consolidate to get closer to those reapers for free, then fall back and get even closer. He would make me a favor, basically). I'm not saying it will be easy, and getting first turn would help immensely, but then again, no list has an easy time vs 30+ dark reapers (10 of which shoot twice) and a few serpents... on the plus side, Alaitoc trait is worthless against me, it would only apply to autoguns out of rapid fire range (and cultists won't probably be shooting at all, they will be too busy being tied up by serpents and falling back towards the reapers...)

that's what i was "afraid" you didn't really tested it, looking on paper seems a solid list, but then after LVO results.... i've seen some matches with chaos lists and every list which got top positions had a consistent amount of fire, oblys, fire raptors, noise marines, for me is very hard believe you can win a match just counting on body mass (and half or your body mass are cultist who die with anything and letters aren't really resilient too) and CaC, that's what wont make the cut for me in this list, i repeat looks like a very good list anyway, maybe im wrong i m not testing so much in 8th edition anymore cause i consider it pretty boring in competitive play. If imay ask, what's the list you usually play? Thanks a lot for your answers
ps: btw eldar can interfer with ds with rangers, take a look at LVO lists, almost every army nowadays have ways to interfer with ds.

Having played against very competitive LVO eldar I can say your list will do well. The list I mentioned above did very well against it, again not much to shoot and you spend whole eldar turns sweating killing a whole 40 man unit.

Keep with your list, honestly i wouldn't even worry about the warpsmith as most psykers will place out of range for important stuff or just shoot through your defense, just get more bodies.

 lazarian wrote:
I've had great success with the following list myself.

Alpha legion batallion

Exalted champion, Hydra Blade and chainswords
Daemon Prince, Khorne, two talons

40 cultists with hand to hand weapons
40 cultists with hand to hand weapons
10 cultists with hand to hand weapons

Khorne Daemon battalion

Daemon Prince, Axe, wings
Foot Herald

3x 30 bloodletters standard/musician

Chaos Battalion

Abbadon

Juggernaut Khorne Herald

3 units nurglings


It gives me three advanced placements with 5 advancing units. Abbadons's fearless bubble is 12" allowing greater movement. It also has 14 command points for redeployment and deep striking purposes.

Even if they counter with nurglings/scouts I still can claim a swath of the deployment as an avenue to push cultists forward. A very important tactic to keep the cultists or bloodletters alive is to only charge one unit with more than one nearby. The unit is so wide and massive you can envelop another, non charged, unit and pile in and pin them on their turn. They cannot shoot them and have to immediately deal with 4 point cultists or 7 point bloodletters.

So far in games the hardest fight was against full blown Cadia where they were able to reveal the banner each turn. I won going away progressive scoring but got mostly caved in. There is so much board presence that I was able to stay the warlord on a dreadknight grandmaster because he had no physical space to deepstrike anywhere.

I've yet to lose, though I have drawn once, with the list since 180 infantry that are able to be most everywhere and tie up anything is hard for most lists to fathom. There is also no one to shoot at aside, again, for inexpensive chaff. Midgame I tend to have stuff tangled up and unable to move, or have simply overwhelmed everything but a castle and are so far ahead on points they have fun blowing away models for no effect.

so you dont infiltate cultists but advance with them+abbadon? beside eldars, against lists with lot of bodies with a big area denial and cheap screens how you play?

If you're running Khorne and planning a heavy hand to hand element, I think Skarbrand is worth serious consideration. He potentially allows you to lock opponents in hand to hand and his aura should do more for you than for your opponent in the long run.

He is also the very definition of a heavy hitter, so there's that.

Brass Collar + Daemonic Possession is a beautiful thing though.

 blackmage wrote:
that's what i was "afraid" you didn't really tested it, looking on paper seems a solid list, but then after LVO results.... i've seen some matches with chaos lists and every list which got top positions had a consistent amount of fire, oblys, fire raptors, noise marines, for me is very hard believe you can win a match just counting on body mass (and half or your body mass are cultist who die with anything and letters aren't really resilient too) and CaC, that's what wont make the cut for me in this list, i repeat looks like a very good list anyway, maybe im wrong i m not testing so much in 8th edition anymore cause i consider it pretty boring in competitive play. If imay ask, what's the list you usually play? Thanks a lot for your answers
ps: btw eldar can interfer with ds with rangers, take a look at LVO lists, almost every army nowadays have ways to interfer with ds.

I played several different lists. Not all of them Chaos. Lately I've been using Death Guard most of all, with a few variations (actually, some substantial ones... I tried maybe 4 or 5 different lists).

BTW, Rangers cannot interfere with DS, unless I unexpectedly develop a brain tumor They set up at he end of deployment, before the first turn... too bad that I have 3 nurgling units that are deployed at 9" from your deployment zone and prevent the rangers from blocking me

yes and then....they deploy at 9" of nurglings if they need and you still cant ds where you want to charge what you need to charge cause you must stay anyway at 9" from rangers., if they deploy the rest of their force just 9-.10 inches behind rangers, where do you think to ds? in front of rangers....or where he want you to ds in....

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
If you're running Khorne and planning a heavy hand to hand element, I think Skarbrand is worth serious consideration. He potentially allows you to lock opponents in hand to hand and his aura should do more for you than for your opponent in the long run.

He is also the very definition of a heavy hitter, so there's that.

Brass Collar + Daemonic Possession is a beautiful thing though.

I think it would be a very bad choice. Too expensive, too slow, but more importantly, he would have a huge target on his back for every type of anti-tank weapon. This list forces you to shoot lascannons at bloodletters, why would you give your opponent a target? Besides, being the ONLY big target, and slow as f**k, either you spend 2 CPs to deepstrike him and hope he gets (and remains) locked in combat, or he won't live to see a second turn. Finally, the Khorne Daemon Prince hits almost as hard while costing half the points, being untargettable, without a degrading profile and much faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:
yes and then....they deploy at 9" of nurglings if they need and you still cant ds where you want to charge what you need to charge cause you must stay anyway at 9" from rangers., if they deploy the rest of their force just 9-.10 inches behind rangers, where do you think to ds? in front of rangers....or where he want you to ds in....

True, but much closer to his other units (depending on the deploment used, ofc). Often close enough that you can annihilate the Rangers, Consolidate towards other units, then use Frenetic Bloodlust for another Pile In + Consolidate, which usually gets multiple enemy units in close combat. Expensive, but tying up multiple reapers units (only to butcher them the following turn) is well worth it Anyway, I'll get back to you once I've tested this on the field

Teschio wrote:
I think it would be a very bad choice. Too expensive, too slow, but more importantly, he would have a huge target on his back for every type of anti-tank weapon. This list forces you to shoot lascannons at bloodletters, why would you give your opponent a target? Besides, being the ONLY big target, and slow as f**k, either you spend 2 CPs to deepstrike him and hope he gets (and remains) locked in combat, or he won't live to see a second turn. Finally, the Khorne Daemon Prince hits almost as hard while costing half the points, being untargettable, without a degrading profile and much faster.

I would only deep strike him, he'll never make it footslogging. However, you deep strike him alongside other units and I think he can be an incredible force multiplier. I have a list where I deep strike him alongside World Eaters Berzerkers that I'm hoping to try out soon, in that scenario a 10 man squad of Berzerkers is dishing out 102 attacks, 92 of which are S6/-1 AP, without using any CP. Anyhow, it's all theorycraft at this point until I get a chance to actually put it on the table and see how it plays.

I'm not saying he's a bad unit. I'm saying he's bad in his list. If you give the enemy multiple big targets, he may work (I'm still skeptical, but he's not terrible). But if he is the ONLY big target, he will last exactly one turn. Not good, for a 360 points piece. In my current list, lasguns are more effective than lascannon, you can see why I would not want to use a unit that suddenly makes all those expensive heavy weapons useful...

Teschio wrote:
I'm not saying he's a bad unit. I'm saying he's bad in his list. If you give the enemy multiple big targets, he may work (I'm still skeptical, but he's not terrible). But if he is the ONLY big target, he will last exactly one turn. Not good, for a 360 points piece. In my current list, lasguns are more effective than lascannon, you can see why I would not want to use a unit that suddenly makes all those expensive heavy weapons useful...

I agree, sketchy, but hand to hand is in a pretty sketchy place right now in the meta. The list I made is not one I expect to win every fight, but it should have some fun, it's designed to go first and I have a couple variations of it I've been playing around with, but suffice to say the list is by no means designed to leave him naked on the front line by himself. But, it's a win-big, lose-big list that if it loses will do so quickly.

Keeping him from getting shot is the goal in keeping him in hand to hand, where he at least has some ability to fight back and defend himself. For example, you could drop Dreadclaws with Berzerkers alongside him and provide a pretty serious distraction for anyone looking to shoot at him, and honestly, as long as he's around for that alpha strike with the Berzerkers, his job is largely done.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

I agree, sketchy, but hand to hand is in a pretty sketchy place right now in the meta. The list I made is not one I expect to win every fight, but it should have some fun, it's designed to go first and I have a couple variations of it I've been playing around with, but suffice to say the list is by no means designed to leave him naked on the front line by himself. But, it's a win-big, lose-big list that if it loses will do so quickly.

Keeping him from getting shot is the goal in keeping him in hand to hand, where he at least has some ability to fight back and defend himself. For example, you could drop Dreadclaws with Berzerkers alongside him and provide a pretty serious distraction for anyone looking to shoot at him, and honestly, as long as he's around for that alpha strike with the Berzerkers, his job is largely done.

Win-big, lose-big lists is not what I'm looking for. If you read the OP, I'm aiming for competitiveness. Meaning tournaments, and if you lose one match in tournaments, you don't get to the top. The idea behind this list is the exact opposite of win-big, lose-big: it's a stable list that will likely never table the opponent, but will win with objectives. And I agree that "hand to hand is in a pretty sketchy place right now", but again, I'm not aiming at killing everything in close combat. This list is more about disruption and objective gaming than it is about killing stuff (not that it can't kill stuff, of course, bu it can win even without completely destroying the enemy)

And as I said, if you want Skarbrand you will have to build the list around him. Including the very basic idea behind the list. He's not a viable option here. Besides, using him as a force multiplier is a waste of 360 points. As for distracting the opponent from shooting at him with other units like Berzerkers, this will not work: a smart opponent will have weapons both for infantry and for big targets, he will shoot the berzerkers with bolters and Skarbrand with lascannons, not the other way around. In my list, there are simply no good targets for big weapons, and since basically everyone will have those, they will be wasting points. As I said, disruption is the key here...

Based on that I would say you're missing out on some opportunities then. You need a bit more synergy I think.

If your goal is to contest, tie up, and slowly grind down your opponent, then not having Horrors is a mistake I think. A 30 man Pink Horror squad with 1-200 point in reinforcements is borderline unkillable within the confines of a tournament time limit. You basically have to kill it in one round of firing from one squad, or it just balloons into a bunch of Blues, then Brims.

Honestly, I'd probably blow up the Khorne section entirely, replace the Scrivener with the Horticulturalist and take a CSM spearhead and deep strike Nurgle Obliterators around the Feculant Gnarlmaws. They'll be incredibly durable (+2 cover save on a 2+), they'll deal with problematic units for you, and with the Nurgle locus and Veterans of the Long War, they can deal out a lot of burst damage since every 5+ to wound will generate an additional wound for them. You're already looking at 17 drops, so you have to assume you're not going first (yes, you might occasionally, but you should plan as if you're not going to get first turn).

Also, who is the Warpsmith really using their abilities on? He doesn't have any vehicles that he can heal, what's his purpose that can't be fulfilled by a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer?

Also, your CSM detachment being mixed means that currently you can't use any legion specific stratagems. However, if you're using 40 man cultist squads (which by the way will give up a lot of victory points in ITC), you should consider Death Guard optimally (since I think you have a lot of room for DG synergy) or Black Legion (which then gives you the Abaddon option, also making your cultists fearless) to make the range on their guns a bit better or just bite the bullet and go Alpha Legion and use Forward Operatives on one of them and properly bomb with them.

It's an interesting list, but if you're really looking to be tournament competitive in the style your describing, I think Khorne is not your guy.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Based on that I would say you're missing out on some opportunities then. You need a bit more synergy I think.

If your goal is to contest, tie up, and slowly grind down your opponent, then not having Horrors is a mistake I think. A 30 man Pink Horror squad with 1-200 point in reinforcements is borderline unkillable within the confines of a tournament time limit. You basically have to kill it in one round of firing from one squad, or it just balloons into a bunch of Blues, then Brims.

Honestly, I'd probably blow up the Khorne section entirely, replace the Scrivener with the Horticulturalist and take a CSM spearhead and deep strike Nurgle Obliterators around the Feculant Gnarlmaws. They'll be incredibly durable (+2 cover save on a 2+), they'll deal with problematic units for you, and with the Nurgle locus and Veterans of the Long War, they can deal out a lot of burst damage since every 5+ to wound will generate an additional wound for them. You're already looking at 17 drops, so you have to assume you're not going first (yes, you might occasionally, but you should plan as if you're not going to get first turn).

Also, who is the Warpsmith really using their abilities on? He doesn't have any vehicles that he can heal, what's his purpose that can't be fulfilled by a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer?

Also, your CSM detachment being mixed means that currently you can't use any legion specific stratagems. However, if you're using 40 man cultist squads (which by the way will give up a lot of victory points in ITC), you should consider Death Guard optimally (since I think you have a lot of room for DG synergy) or Black Legion (which then gives you the Abaddon option, also making your cultists fearless) to make the range on their guns a bit better or just bite the bullet and go Alpha Legion and use Forward Operatives on one of them and properly bomb with them.

It's an interesting list, but if you're really looking to be tournament competitive in the style your describing, I think Khorne is not your guy.

Tell me where to find the points for those things, and I'll consider them. If you can, I'd like to see a list, with points, not just "add this and that" without considering the costs. See, SOME of those ideas are not bad (for example, I use nurgle oblis protected by a gnarlmaw too, in other lists). But those choices are not free, and in order to introduce them, I would have to eliminate A LOT of stuff, drastically changing the way the list plays.

As for going second, the opponent has a +1 to start, it's not a guarantee. And there are lists with more than 17 drops. But the list is so durable (with the only squishy things, bloodletters, deepstriking), that going second is not really a big issue. There are lists that are at a big disadvantage if they start second (something suicidal in tournaments, but still they exist...), this is not one of those.

For the warpsmith, you should have read the description I provided. He's there for the brass collar. Sure, he can occasionally do some damage, even just the free mortal wound each turn, but the collar and World Eaters stratagem are the only reasons he's there. I could have used a chaos lord, exalted champion, dark apostle etc. (NOT a sorcerer: he needs to be World Eaters!), the warpsmith is just cheap and provides a little more utility. You might think the collar is not worth it, but you would be wrong: psykers within 24" that are not Magnus or Farseers will be VERY careful about casting anything... if they do, there's a serious chance they'll explode.

For legion traits: again, READ THE DESCRIPTION (sorry for the caps, but you are commenting without even trying to understand the reasons behind certain choices, even though I explained them...). I do not care one bit about giving cultists legion traits. If they get to shoot their autoguns that's a bonus, but most of the times they are there to block movements and tie units up in hand to hand (I didn't give them close combat weapons because their purpose is not to do damage in HtH either, and autoguns are more useful). But they NEED to be fearless. If they are not, you just need to kill 23 to make sure the entire unit disappears, and killing 23 cultists is not hard. Killing 40 is, for many lists, and it would require a massive investment. And you need to kill all 40 of them, or they'll come back in full force. Abbadon could be a viable alternative to the DP, and I've considered it, but I like having Warptime on something that will always be close to the cultists, so they can move and tie things up better (even after I recycle them, which is also why the DP has wings - so he can get within range of a re-entering cultists unit faster).

Teschio wrote:
Tell me where to find the points for those things, and I'll consider them. If you can, I'd like to see a list, with points, not just "add this and that" without considering the costs. See, SOME of those ideas are not bad (for example, I use nurgle oblis protected by a gnarlmaw too, in other lists). But those choices are not free, and in order to introduce them, I would have to eliminate A LOT of stuff, drastically changing the way the list plays.

I read your notes, I understand what you're trying to do, I don't think your list will do it as well as you think, I think it lacks synergy, wastes points and is trying to shove a square peg (Khorne) into a round hole (I think Khorne favors a tabling approach rather than a take and hold approach).

You asked for a list, I give you two.

Nurgle themed, with 60 points left over, I could probably tweak it and figure out where to spend that last 60, but you can always use it to summon Nurglings late game to hold an objective:


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) [22 PL, 397pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Nurgle

+ HQ +

Horticulus Slimux [9 PL, 165pts]

Poxbringer [4 PL, 70pts]: Fleshy Abundance

+ Troops +

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [37 PL, 615pts] ++

+ HQ +

Necrosius the Undying [7 PL, 120pts]: Gift of Contagion, Putrescent Vitality

Typhus [9 PL, 175pts]: Blades of Putrefaction, Putrescent Vitality

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [12 PL, 160pts]: 39x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [51 PL, 928pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 183pts]: Malefic talon, Warp bolter
. Nurgle: Miasma of Pestilence

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [12 PL, 160pts]: 39x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

++ Total: [110 PL, 1940pts] ++


Nurgle and Tzeentch playground buddies with 176 points left for reinforcements, should provide an additional 20 Blue Horror and about 60 Brims, depending on how you spend it:


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [28 PL, 495pts] ++

+ HQ +

Necrosius the Undying [7 PL, 120pts]: Gift of Contagion, Putrescent Vitality

Typhus [9 PL, 175pts]: Blades of Putrefaction, Putrescent Vitality

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 768pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 183pts]: Malefic talon, Warp bolter
. Nurgle: Miasma of Pestilence

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) [31 PL, 561pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

+ HQ +

Changecaster [4 PL, 78pts]: Daemonspark, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Warlord

Horticulus Slimux [9 PL, 165pts]

+ Troops +

Horrors [12 PL, 210pts]: 30x Pink Horror

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

++ Total: [98 PL, 1824pts] ++

Teschio wrote:
As for going second, the opponent has a +1 to start, it's not a guarantee. And there are lists with more than 17 drops. But the list is so durable (with the only squishy things, bloodletters, deepstriking), that going second is not really a big issue. There are lists that are at a big disadvantage if they start second (something suicidal in tournaments, but still they exist...), this is not one of those.

Yes, but you build for things to go sideways, not for them to stay on track. Anecdotally, I had +1 to go first in every match at LVO and went first every match, so YMMV.

Teschio wrote:
For the warpsmith, you should have read the description I provided. He's there for the brass collar. Sure, he can occasionally do some damage, even just the free mortal wound each turn, but the collar and World Eaters stratagem are the only reasons he's there. I could have used a chaos lord, exalted champion, dark apostle etc. (NOT a sorcerer: he needs to be World Eaters!), the warpsmith is just cheap and provides a little more utility. You might think the collar is not worth it, but you would be wrong: psykers within 24" that are not Magnus or Farseers will be VERY careful about casting anything... if they do, there's a serious chance they'll explode.

I know about the Brass Collar + Daemonic Possession combo, it's nice, but I think you're paying way too many points for that angle and the Warpsmith is bringing little else to the table. I mean I use the same combo in my World Eaters list (which is a for fun list, I'm not convinced of WE viability in tournament yet), but I put it on my Chaos Lord who's rolling deep with his Berzerkers and putting in other work.

Teschio wrote:
For legion traits: again, READ THE DESCRIPTION (sorry for the caps, but you are commenting without even trying to understand the reasons behind certain choices, even though I explained them...). I do not care one bit about giving cultists legion traits. If they get to shoot their autoguns that's a bonus, but most of the times they are there to block movements and tie units up in hand to hand (I didn't give them close combat weapons because their purpose is not to do damage in HtH either, and autoguns are more useful). But they NEED to be fearless. If they are not, you just need to kill 23 to make sure the entire unit disappears, and killing 23 cultists is not hard. Killing 40 is, for many lists, and it would require a massive investment. And you need to kill all 40 of them, or they'll come back in full force. Abbadon could be a viable alternative to the DP, and I've considered it, but I like having Warptime on something that will always be close to the cultists, so they can move and tie things up better (even after I recycle them, which is also why the DP has wings - so he can get within range of a re-entering cultists unit faster).

Again, you're paying a premium for something to do one job when it can do more than that quite effectively. Furthermore, if you're trying to avoid giving up points, you're failing, badly. I'd max out Reaper off of your list within the first 2 turns, but as a bonus, your list allows me to max out on Head Hunter also, then it's just a matter of what flavor of other secondary do I want, probably Old School without thinking about it too much. Bottom line, it's easy to max out secondary scoring off of this list.

... and the last paragraph makes it clear that you didn't read the first post. What part of "no ITC rules used here" was unclear? Reaper, Head Hunter, Old School, I don't even know what those things are, but I know they are exclusive to ITC. And ITC is not used anywhere in Italy that I know of (which is why I don't know what those secondaries do, I didn't even bother to read them since I'll never get to use them or build lists to get them)

For the warpsmith, I'm paying 78 points for a slot I'd have to fill anyway (I need CPs), and no other character is as effective in this type of list for its cost.

For going second, yes, I DO build lists considering the worst case scanario. This list is better off than many others with going second, I don't really see the point of your objection here...

As for your lists, I hope you know you still have to pay points for the Gnarlmaws you plant with Horticulous, you talking about getting other stuff with those 60 points didn't make it very clear... and as I predicted, the first list plays VERY differently, cultists there are just chaff, they don't disrupt the opponent (basically, they are easy to wipe not being fearless). I didn't ask for a generic chaos list, I asked for comments and improvements on a specific type of list, changing drastically the way it plays is not really helpful (if I wanted to go gnarlmaw + oblis, I'd use another list I have played recently). So does the second list, by the way. They are COMPLETELY different lists, that play in very different ways. It's not even apples and oranges, it's apples and ground beef...


Sorry if I'm blunt, but the impression you're giving is "I didn't really bother to read anything you wrote except the actual units, but your list sucks, here are a couple of completely different ones". Not constructive, and not helpful. Changing the very way in which a list works is not what posting lists is for, imho: tweaks, improvements, suggestions, in extreme cases "go back to the drawing board, this won't work", these are useful answers. "Change your intended strategy completely and use this list instead" are not.

Teschio wrote:
Sorry, if I'm blunt, but the impression you're giving is "I didn't really bother to read anything you wrote except the acual units, but your list sucks, here are a couple of completely different ones". Not constructive, and not helpful. Changing the very way in which a list works is not what posting lists is for, imho: tweaks, improvements, suggestions, in extreme cases "go back to the drawing board, this won't work", these are useful answers. "Change your intended strategy completely and use this list instead" are not.

Sorry man, here's the feedback you wanted.

Your list is super tell me more!

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Sorry man, here's the feedback you wanted.

Your list is super tell me more!

You may have noticed that I was not this blunt with other commenters. Here's why:

1) they read what I wrote. You asked why the warpsmith (I did talk about it), why no legion trait (same), you talked about ITC secondaries even though I specifically said this list was not for ITC. If you don't bother to read a post, don't bother replying to it.

2) your first suggestion was honestly terrible (Skarbrand, really?), even though I stated that one of the pros of this list is that it makes big guns a lot less useful. So, again point 1 (you didn't read), coupled with an advice that makes me question your competence.

3) following up on the competence point, you clearly thought gnarlmaws from Horticulous were free. Not really the best indication that your advice can be meaningful.

4) finally, you didn't bother to improve my list, you changed the very idea behind it. Which means that you likely didn't even understand how it plays (others doubted its effectiveness, and that's ok, but at least they got what my gameplan was). It was not much different that replying to a Craftworld list and saying "this won't work, play this Ultramarines list instead".

I'm not asking for approval, quite the opposite: if I post here, it's so people can try to improve my list and find its flaws, hopefully with suggesions on how to fix them. But, unlike other commenters, you didn't try to work with my list, you wanted to suggest yours (that plays in the opposite way as well...). As I said, not helpful.