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This has been prompted by a plog on DakkaDakka.
Simply put, this guy's painting, IMO, is pretty terrible. Fair enough, no need to be rude about it, we all start somewhere, is what you're probably thinking.
But he isn't starting out.
The plog has been running for a number of years, and the painting is just as bad, start to finish. He doesn't even 'paint within the lines' the colours spill over, and not blending, he just lets the gold detailing on bolters spill onto the black casing, for example. I think the problem stems form his attitude, because it seems like he's really proud of his work, which is great, but if you're too proud of your work you don't improve.

Basically, I want to tell him his painting sucks and he should try some new things and push himself for God's sake, without coming across as an hole, and I don't know exactly how to convey that politely whilst maintaining the desired meaning.

If someone is clearly happy with his painting skills and doesn't want to improve them, let it be. Not everyone wants to be a better painter.

Fair enough.

Unless he asks for feedback, tips, anything... then let him be... Does his bad painting affect you in any way, shape or form other than your opinion of his painting?

If not, than let him be... If he wants to improve, he will, if he is happy with how he paints, let him be happy with how he paints...

As above. What do you care? Why would you even want to rain on their parade? What good does it actually do for them or you? If S/he is happy with their work then let them be happy.

Yeah, unless he's asking for feedback in his blog or in the Painting&Modelling section, don't touch the subject.

Some people just have a unique style, not everyone can or wants their models to look like ‘evy metal or citadel pieces.

As stated, unless he’a looking for feedback, just let him enjoy the hobby in his own way

IMO there's nothing wrong with telling him how you feel about your painting. Some people here comented that you should just let him enjoy painting, but I don't think that you telling him what's on your mind will somehow ruin his enjoyment of painting. It could be that he honestly doesn't know. Not letting him know that everyone around him thinks that his painting is terrible (and people probably do if it is as you described) just seems cruel to me.
On the question of how would you actually do it... Perhaps just speak your mind and link a few of Duncans' videos?

 Power Elephant wrote:
IMO there's nothing wrong with telling him how you feel about your painting. Some people here comented that you should just let him enjoy painting, but I don't think that you telling him what's on your mind will somehow ruin his enjoyment of painting. It could be that he honestly doesn't know. Not letting him know that everyone around him thinks that his painting is terrible (and people probably do if it is as you described) just seems cruel to me.
On the question of how would you actually do it... Perhaps just speak your mind and link a few of Duncans' videos?

You don't see how someone telling them their painting is terrible could make them self conscious of their painting? Potentially making them embarrassed of what they have posted thus far? Deleting their Plog/pictures and looking at what they previously enjoyed now tainted with shame?

Why would it be cruel to let someone having fun to keep on having fun as opposed to risking ruining that fun by inserting your unasked for opinions?

I am not saying this person would take feedback in this way, but more that I HAVE seen people take any criticism this way before. Whats the point of risking that when it isn't asked for?

 Power Elephant wrote:
IMO there's nothing wrong with telling him how you feel about your painting. Some people here comented that you should just let him enjoy painting, but I don't think that you telling him what's on your mind will somehow ruin his enjoyment of painting. It could be that he honestly doesn't know. Not letting him know that everyone around him thinks that his painting is terrible (and people probably do if it is as you described) just seems cruel to me.
On the question of how would you actually do it... Perhaps just speak your mind and link a few of Duncans' videos?

Huh?

If he feels he's painting decently and enjoying painting, telling him he sucks at painting is quite likely going to ruin his enjoyment of painting.

I'm with the other folk, keep it to yourself unless they ask you for your opinion.

The painting log is for him, not you. This person clearly enjoys painting and posting about it no need to say a word to this guy.

Isn't the fact that he has his own blog permission enough for comment and critiqe? The reason people write blogs in the first place is so they can share their work with the world. They want to hear what other people think, both praise and critiqe. Otherwise it's just an echo chamber, and I don't think that's really what anyone wants.

Maybe it would be best, if you truly feel it necessary to intervene, to suggest ways in which the painter might improve?
Y'know, comments like "have you tried X method for highlighting?"
Constructive criticism or advice on technique is much more likely to be well received than a "You Suck" after all.

You posting is pretty bloody terrible, we don't say anything about that though

 Power Elephant wrote:
Isn't the fact that he has his own blog permission enough for comment and critiqe? The reason people write blogs in the first place is so they can share their work with the world. They want to hear what other people think, both praise and critiqe. Otherwise it's just an echo chamber, and I don't think that's really what anyone wants.

I started my plog primarily as an effort to keep myself motivated to keep on painting. I also went through years of art school getting and learning all about criticism so I am all for it and ask for it. But that wasn't the purpose of my plog. It was purely a motivational tool.

I expect people who want criticism will say so.

kb_lock wrote:
You posting is pretty bloody terrible, we don't say anything about that though

Please don't make this personal. All I'm saying is that perhaps speaking out could help this person. I'm not even saying that's necesarily what should be done, but rather that that's a perspective worth considering. I don't think most people are that fragile.

 Power Elephant wrote:
Isn't the fact that he has his own blog permission enough for comment and critiqe?

You don't need to have "permission", it's just not the most constructive thing to do.

The reason people write blogs in the first place is so they can share their work with the world. They want to hear what other people think, both praise and critiqe. Otherwise it's just an echo chamber, and I don't think that's really what anyone wants.

If people don't specifically ask for criticism then I think it's best not to give it****. If you don't have anything nice to say, better to say nothing at all.

He might just be proud that he's making progress, enjoys sharing that project and in his mind it looks good. I don't see any reason to tear that world down for him unless he himself feels he wants to improve and is asking for help in regards to that.

On the one hand sometimes it's good to broaden someone's view, in some cases it's not, let them be happy in feeling what they're doing is good, in his eyes it might be good, why destroy that? Life will kick you in the balls enough without your hobby kicking you in the balls too.

On the flip side I have a mate who knows his painting sucks but has been completely immune to any attempt I've made to help him improve, after a while I realised I wasn't helping and just let him do what he wants to do, and this is a guy who knows what he does sucks


****Unless what they're doing is going to affect other people down the line, feel free to tell an engineer his bridge is going to fall down or a driver their driving sucks and will get someone killed.

If this is somone's personal hobby work, be constructive. Offer suggestions like 'if you try using the edge of your brush to edge highlight it'll be easier' and so on. Try to identify a problem and suggest a solution.

It's only worth stating work isn't good, or good enough, for a few situations. If the guy's hoping to win at a competition, for example. Or trying to pitch himself as a high end pro painter. That sort of thing. In those cases, folks being critical is what people are (or should be) looking for. It's how we learn. If they *don't* want to hear criticism and they're attempting to be competitive with their paintwork (either commercially or not), then the onus of donkey-cave is on them. My opinion's that, anyway.

I don't see the need too.

Interestingly if you had titled the thread "How do I give advice to help someone improve their paninting" I might have had a slgihtly different opinon. But I dont see how telling someone their painting sucks no matter how you sugar coat it helps anyone.

Most of you seem to be assuming that this person indeed just want to paint his stuff, post it on his blog, and be happy about it. And if he is, great, more power to him.
But it's also possible that in reality he's been trying to improve for years, but hasn't had any luck.
It seems to me that the reason mr. CREEEEED made this post in the first place is that he doesn't know which one of these scenarios is true, because somehow I doubt that he just randomly stumbled upon a blog and he now has this burning desire to tell this person that he sucks.
So my point is that, if he truly doesn't know which is the case, he should speak his mind, because, ultimately, the embarrassment this person might suffer by hearing him is nothing next to the pride he'll experience when he gets better.

I reckon it depends on how this person posted his images. If they’ve posted “here are my figures, I think they’re great and want to share them” Then I wouldn’t give him any negative feedback.
If he posted “here are my figures, can you give me feedback, what do you think of my skills?” Then I guess it’s fair enough to point out things that could be improved.
Like people above have said, try to give positive suggestions rather than negative criticism. Some people have different levels of what’s acceptable, personally I’m not a good painter and painting bores the hell out of me, but I still post them because, well maybe somebody might like my conversions or be inspired to do a better version of what I’ve done.

Finally I’d like to remind everyone that mr. CREEEED wants to find a way to impart his feelings in a way that doesn’t upset or belittle the painter, so he isn’t just out to bash him.

If that's what was motivating the OP, Thunderforge, they'd have phrased their question differently.

And the point people are making, Power Elephant, is that it's not really up to you, or the OP, or anyone else to decide on this person's behalf that they need to improve and that causing them embarrassment or discomfort is less important than what you believe they would experience if they do what you think they should do. For all you know, gaking on their work - however much you pretty up the words you use to do it - could kill their motivation for months or even drive them away from the hobby entirely. They may even be aware of their shortcomings already, in which case you pointing them out in public is just bringing them down for no reason whatsoever other than to gratify yourself.

If someone solicits advice, give advice. If they don't, don't stick your nose into their business.

 Power Elephant wrote:
But it's also possible that in reality he's been trying to improve for years, but hasn't had any luck.

Honestly at that point the onus is on them to ask for help if they want it. If the dude has a plog, I'm sure he's also aware that youtube and forums exist where he can get help, or just go to the gaming store and start asking people how they painted stuff and occasionally some will actually show you in addition to explaining it.

I really doubt anyone is happily and proudly sharing pictures of their models without asking for comments and criticisms is secretly crying out for help

Honestly if anyone has a problem it's not the dude with supposedly bad models, it's the people with sticks up their arses who cares his models are like that. I WISH more folks had a passion for getting their models painted regardless of the quality (I sure as hell don't ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thunderforge wrote:
Finally I’d like to remind everyone that mr. CREEEED wants to find a way to impart his feelings in a way that doesn’t upset or belittle the painter, so he isn’t just out to bash him.

But why do CREEED's feelings need to be imparted? If the dude is happy and proud of his models, isn't that good enough?

I know this is the internet where we love injecting our opinions in to everything... in real life it's not actually necessary to bring down people who are happy with the way things are I remember when my mate bought a new TV I stupidly pointed out the things I (as a connoisseur of such things) thought were flaws with it, now he always brings up how he was happy with it before I pointed those things out to him and asks me not to tell him anything about his speakers because he knows I'm a bit of an audiophile as well

kb_lock wrote:
You posting is pretty bloody terrible, we don't say anything about that though

You want to elaborate on that?
Edit: Just so we're all clear I haven't said anything and you've all convinced me to say nothing, or maybe just give a friendly suggestion or two with no mention of original quality.
Edit 2: I appreciate the mr.

I believe KB was giving unasked for critique on your posting to emulate unasked for critique on a persons painting.



As for what you should do, read the plog and get an idea of what that person wants from their painting. If they really are just happy doing what they do and sharing it that's great. They are enjoying the hobby in their way.

Consider a few things
1) They might have vision issues which makes it much harder for them to actually see the models in detail. A blown up photograph might show them, but on the model itself when its in their hand they just might not be able to see.
Similarly they might have motive issues with their hands which limits their capacity to paint to a higher level.

This is something totally invisible to posting online unless the person outright states it; but it could be a significant factor in their quality of work.

2) They might not be able to "see" those errors. Start anyone off in model making for the first time and chances are they can't see mould lines on models. Oh sure if its a super huge one as you might get with resin casting they might spot it; but the fine raised line on the edge of a model can be totally invisible. Further even if they can see it they might not know that its a thing that can be corrected
We live in an age where if you know something of the answer, google can give you the answer. But if you know nothing of the answer and not even the question to be asked, google won't give you anything. So even self-learning they might not know to even think of searching for how to remove the lines - its just part of the product once its clipped from the sprue (minor mistakes in painting are just the same)

3) Just as many don't know how to give, many also don't know how to receive critique. Indeed it can get very personal and out of hand very quickly if you get the two groups together.
I've also noticed that for as many people who can't take critique on their work there's almost double the number who can't take critique upon their critique comment (ergo debate of disagreement on the point made).



Honestly without knowing the person its all guesswork and there's a whole host of options and opinions and approaches that could be proposed. In general I'd say it sounds like its best left alone; if you really are super keen to teach find someone who wants to learn and focus on them for now. Better to help those who are overtly asking for help and spend your time aiding them; than it is to go hunting for people who might not want any help.

If you are still really hot on wanting to help remember - BABY STEPS. Also remember that you are far more likely to lead a person then push them. So use language that invites them to try something new, or suggests an idea for them to try rather than "this is how you do it, don't do it any other way you've been wrong up until now".
The "sergeant major" style of giving critique/advice does not, in general, work at all outside of person to person interaction in the army. In hobbies and clubs the person on the receiving end is more likely to just up and leave than react in a positive manner to it.

Hey that paint scheme is really neat, shame about those few splotches on the arm, have you thought about just dabbing a tiny bit on the brush, rolling it on the pad to wipe most of the paint off then just gently touching up those few dots.

Just out of curiosity, have you read the posts that go with the pictures? I know there are a few cases where the painters are really young or face some barriers with painting to what most would consider a high standard.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Basically, I want to tell him his painting sucks and he should try some new things and push himself for God's sake, without coming across as an hole, and I don't know exactly how to convey that politely whilst maintaining the desired meaning.

You can't act like a jerk without coming off as a jerk. If you don't like somebody's plog, you unsubscribe and move on.

Ask yourself this: have you ever received unsolicited feedback, particularly harsh, demanding feedback from a stranger, that you ended up appreciating? For nearly all people, nearly all of the time, the answer is no. You are asking for the best way to tell a person he's doing his hobby wrong and should try harder. There's no polite way to do that.

.. temp lock pending discussion.