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I am a tyranid player and am set to play a 1500 point game against custodes soon. Haven't yet made a list and can't find any advice anywhere so I came here for some advice from you guys. How do you beat custodes, what are their weaknesses (I'm interested in this against all armies - not just tyranids). Thanks!
They have pretty much the same weaknesses as any elite army - really low model count, potential difficulties scoring multiple objectives, potentially short on anti-infantry dakka (unless they're spamming jetbikes). Generally brutal in HtH - it's like fighting an army on vanilla Space Marine characters,
Multi-wound weapons help, disposable chaff to bog units down helps, mortal wounds works very well - there's lots of ways for Nids to make that game work.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Bodys and numbers work best against them. Everyone has invulnerable saves, like 4+, so play to that. Don't bother with weapons that have more than ap-2, given the choice pick high numbers of attacks instead.
Also multi wound works wonders. So high str, low Ap, high dmg, high number of attacks. Luckily tyrnaids have a bunch of options to them to get there.
Also target the bikes first if possible. Those are a serious threat.
Finally mortal wounds, smite with zonatheops will be amazing if you have enough.
They also don't have much to deal with flying units so. . . Hi hive crone?
I've played them twice, once with 2x 40 man Cultist squads, once with 2x 30 thing Bloodletter squads.
The Bloodletters forced the Custodes to make invulnerable saves, but even with 60 AP -3 attacks each, they only did a few wounds per turn. The Custodes player made a mistake by continuing to charge after the first round, which doubled the Bloodletter's attacks.
The Cultists kept Custodes tied up all game, and I used Tide of Traitors to bring them back on when their numbers got low. They killed a few Custodes, but did not kill a unit.
Azuza001 wrote: Bodys and numbers work best against them. Everyone has invulnerable saves, like 4+, so play to that. Don't bother with weapons that have more than ap-2, given the choice pick high numbers of attacks instead.
Also multi wound works wonders. So high str, low Ap, high dmg, high number of attacks. Luckily tyrnaids have a bunch of options to them to get there.
Also target the bikes first if possible. Those are a serious threat.
Finally mortal wounds, smite with zonatheops will be amazing if you have enough.
They also don't have much to deal with flying units so. . . Hi hive crone?
This is all good except the last bit. The bikes can charge and melee flyers and it will hurt.
Saturate them in Fire power or Combat Power and they should go down. 3++ invul is only so good against 50 1dmg dice.
I would imagine 30 Devigaunts shooting 90 shoots would easily kill an entire unit. Or, 20 Genestealers doing 80 attacks is probably more reliable due to -1 AP although if the unit has 3/4/5++ invul there is only a slight difference in what unit preforms better.
They don't preform well to Mortal wounds so using stuff like Biovores, Mawlocs, Spores will hurt them a lot more then expected. Casting Smite and Pysker Scream is also a good way of dealing MW if using a unit that can cast 2 powers like a Hive Tyrant.
30 Devilgaunts, assuming a Tervigon nearby for reroll 1s on hits AND wounds, deals...
90 shots
105/2 hits
245/12 wounds
245/72 unsaved wounds
Or 3.4 wounds. Just enough to kill a regular Custode, not enough to kill a Bike or Termi.
80 swings from Stealers, though, assuming a nearby Broodlord and only a 4+ invuln...
80 swings
200/3 hits
100/9 wounds at -1 and 100/9 at -3.
100/27 unsaved from the -1 and 50/9 from the -3.
Or, 9.26 wounds. Much better! That's enough to kill an entire Bike or Terminator captain, and will wipe three regular Custodes or two Termis/Bikes!
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: 30 Devilgaunts, assuming a Tervigon nearby for reroll 1s on hits AND wounds, deals...
90 shots
105/2 hits
245/12 wounds
245/72 unsaved wounds
Or 3.4 wounds. Just enough to kill a regular Custode, not enough to kill a Bike or Termi.
80 swings from Stealers, though, assuming a nearby Broodlord and only a 4+ invuln...
80 swings
200/3 hits
100/9 wounds at -1 and 100/9 at -3.
100/27 unsaved from the -1 and 50/9 from the -3.
Or, 9.26 wounds. Much better! That's enough to kill an entire Bike or Terminator captain, and will wipe three regular Custodes or two Termis/Bikes!
Thanks for doing the maths
Didn't expect there to be that much of a difference between the Devigaunts and Stealers but I am plesently surprised!.
Going by those numbers it seems that Stealers are better at killing but their issue is getting all those models into CC range while Devigaunts just have to 18" or closer and everything can shot without issue.
While Devigaunts won't harm Termis or Bikers that doesn't stop you from shooting at those units with said Devigaunts then charge with stealers. Probably Overkill but it's better to be against Dead cutodes then alive ones. Especially if your still in CC
A couple flyrants casting Smite and Shriek will chip away at the stone. Keep the flyrants surrounded so that jetbike units cannot charge them. You really don't want to engage them in combat as that is their #1 strength. Some Biovores for more mortal wounds.n Lots and lots of bodies and strong synapse... a Malenthrope will be very useful.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Genestealers perform like garbage against T6 3++. Don't even bother. They're marginally better against T6, 4++, but not by much.
If you charge into 3x T6, 2+/4++ bikes with hurricane bolters, you're losing a couple Genstealers to overwatch.
You're killing 1 bike. Then they fight back, next turn, they leave combat, and light you up with 24 hurricane bolter dice.
All in all in this exchange you've killed 1 bike but lost over ~12 Genestealers.
And that's assuming they didn't shoot you with their hurricane bolters - they have a 24" range on these guys, remember? And their base move speed is 16". Also, these can deep strike for a pittance of CP. So you might find yourself with 6 bikes deep striking if GS aren't screened, and 72 hurricane bolter shots? well...
You want ranged shooting with AP to drop Custode bikes, and mortal wounds. You NEED ap on your attacks, 2+ is tough, and T6 basically means you're probably shooting.
Heavy Venom Cannons are probably the most efficient way we have against the regular bikes. Against the Captains, the most efficient weapon we have is the Tyrannofex Acid Spray, because it doesn't waste any AP, does D3 damage, and is strength7. Although T6 3++ with fly, and free reroll save every turn? Better off just avoiding him.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/27 00:16:55
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
He won't have the bodies or fire-power to contest/remove you from objectives.
You should control more and get whatever the mission bonus is for most missions (assuming this is ITC). Keep large units around and run away from him to keep him from wiping anything you can. Recon, old school and behind enemy lines will all give you good secondaries even if you don't kill much.
I played a nid list in my last tourney and removing 2x29 moral immune gaunt bodies was hell.
Good luck getting past turn 3-4 so try to front-load your scoring.
Tie him up with stealers, kill a few if you can. Focus on killing the characters if you can find them (often times people are over confident with their "invulnerable" bike captains.)
Conga line those gaunts all over the place. If he shoots you with hurricane bolters remove the models closest to him to make it hard for him to charge you (and don't let him charge to get within objective contest range)
Use deepstriking units to spread him out. His army works best as a bunch, if he has to go 2-3 different directions he doesn't have the weight of attacks to put a dent in anything you are running.
The big guy who burrows is pretty good against them. Bubble wrap him in gaunts and show-up somewhere annoying.
Yeah, the smite brain bugs are also a problem. Present them with the brain bugs, stealers and objective holders and he will struggle to kill enough to make it worth it. Also hide a couple of those no LOS suckers somewhere as they hit hard enough w/ multi-damage wounds to hurt.
Heck, even flyrants with those cannons (12 shot, s6 ones?) can cause problems. He only moves 14 with the flying bikes, the rest of his army might as well be standing still if you do good deepstrike denial.
If you aren't playing ITC or some other form of objective based scoring you will be at a disadvantage
Nidz won't have problem against Custodes. Just spam mortal wounds, use Flyrants, large groups of Zoanthropes to do more than D3 MW, Biovoires, Sporemines, etc..
Massed number of attacks should also kill Custodes very quick, 80 attacks from Genestealers even without the buff of Broodlord is taking around 8W from Custodes, given their low number of models, dealing this wounds each turn is deadly enough.
For the choice of weapons, try looking for anything S6+, AP-1/2 and multi damage multi shots, higer AP is a waste due to they have 4++ . Hive Guard Impelar Cannon is a good weapon dealing them. Exocrine is not bad as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/27 00:34:06
If you have to super tailor your list to win it is not much of a win so consider that when building your army.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Marmatag wrote: Genestealers perform like garbage against T6 3++. Don't even bother. They're marginally better against T6, 4++, but not by much.
If you charge into 3x T6, 2+/4++ bikes with hurricane bolters, you're losing a couple Genstealers to overwatch.
You're killing 1 bike. Then they fight back, next turn, they leave combat, and light you up with 24 hurricane bolter dice.
All in all in this exchange you've killed 1 bike but lost over ~12 Genestealers.
And that's assuming they didn't shoot you with their hurricane bolters - they have a 24" range on these guys, remember? And their base move speed is 16". Also, these can deep strike for a pittance of CP. So you might find yourself with 6 bikes deep striking if GS aren't screened, and 72 hurricane bolter shots? well...
You want ranged shooting with AP to drop Custode bikes, and mortal wounds. You NEED ap on your attacks, 2+ is tough, and T6 basically means you're probably shooting.
Heavy Venom Cannons are probably the most efficient way we have against the regular bikes. Against the Captains, the most efficient weapon we have is the Tyrannofex Acid Spray, because it doesn't waste any AP, does D3 damage, and is strength7. Although T6 3++ with fly, and free reroll save every turn? Better off just avoiding him.
Did you miss my math? They kill 2 and a quarter bikes, against T6, 2+/4++. Now, I didn't factor in Overwatch, but assuming a min squad of three bikes, you're looking at 6 hits (up to 7 if there's a nearby captain) and 3 (3.5) wounds for 2 (2.33) dead Stealers. Even re-running the math with 8 less attacks, you get 8.33 wounds, enough to kill two bikes. The one remainder swings back, with 5 attacks total (4 base with the lance, 1 from the Miser-whatever, all at S5-7, so wounding the same), for 25/6 hits, 25/9 wounds, and 50/27 unsaved, or about two more dead Stealers.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Casting Catalyst on the Stealers also gives them quite more survivability. Also, if you bring a Magus (I usually bring GSC with my Nids) you can cast Mass Hypnosis on the Custodes unit to give them -1 to hit, fight last the in fight phase and prevents Overwatch.
If going GSC for you CC attacks you can buff your GSC Stealers to 100 S6 attacks by casting Might from Beyond for +1 Strength and Attacks and if you bring an Acolyte Iconward you can give him a relic to give GSC Infantry units (including Patriarchs) +1 Strength. Although it is a 500-650pt CC investment it would make mine meat of Custodes.
JNA could you math out 100 S6 attacks hitting on 2+ w -1/-4 AP vs 100 S6 attacks hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s (Scythe Talons) to hit to see what preforms better?
Odrankt wrote: Casting Catalyst on the Stealers also gives them quite more survivability. Also, if you bring a Magus (I usually bring GSC with my Nids) you can cast Mass Hypnosis on the Custodes unit to give them -1 to hit, fight last the in fight phase and prevents Overwatch.
If going GSC for you CC attacks you can buff your GSC Stealers to 100 S6 attacks by casting Might from Beyond for +1 Strength and Attacks and if you bring an Acolyte Iconward you can give him a relic to give GSC Infantry units (including Patriarchs) +1 Strength. Although it is a 500-650pt CC investment it would make mine meat of Custodes.
JNA could you math out 100 S6 attacks hitting on 2+ w -1/-4 AP vs 100 S6 attacks hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s (Scythe Talons) to hit to see what preforms better?
[MESEEKS]Can do![/MESEEKS]
Gut feeling is the AP will matter more than the rerolling 1s. Let's see! Also, again, assuming 4+ invuln.
100 attacks, hitting on 2+, with -1/-4 on 6s.
250/3 hits
250/9 wounds at -1, 125/9 at -4
250/27 wounds unsaved from -1 and 125/18 unsaved from -4
So that is 16.2 wounds dealt. Enough to wipe a squad and then some.
100 attacks, hitting on a 2+ rerolling, no AP.
875/9 hits
875/18 wounds
875/108 unsaved wounds
So that is 8.1 wounds dealt. Less than 20 Genestealers supported by only a Broodlord.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I put more stock in what Marmatag said as he is a competitive gamer and wins some tournaments versus the mathammer. GSC has nothing to do with this discussion if the OP is planning to bring Tyranids and even then have seen Custodes tear GSC apart even being charged. Mathammer often assumes a full squad which is not always the case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/27 01:47:50
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
If you want to lose any respect you've earned and make mortal enemies, just bring a ton of Biovores. You easily fit 10-20 Biovores into a 1500 point list, and those guys will spam so many mortal wounds that the Custodes will drown in a sea of spore mines and mortal wounds.
admironheart wrote: Ive seen a squad of 20 genestealers tie up 5 custodies and after 4 rounds....there were still 2 custodies left and only 5 stealers.
That is statistically unlikely. 20 Genestealers dish out 80 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 5+ (rending on a 6+), so each attack inflicts an average of (2/3)*(1/6)*(1/3)+(2/3)*(1/6)*(1/2)=(.037)+(.056)=.0925, 5 repeating, damage per swing. A squad of 5 Custodes would, therefore, take an average of 162 attacks to kill. Sounds like a lot, until you realize the Stealers can pump that amount out in just over 2 turns (if none die). Even assuming 5 die a turn, that's 80+40 (10 left, because Custodes swung first)+40 (still 10, because Stealers swing first), or three turns to do it.
Put another way, assuming all 20 get in the first turn, they have a .63% chance of mincing them turn one. Not likely, but not impossible. Killing three, though, has a just over 32% chance of happening turn one, and killing two has a greater than 75% chance.
Even assuming all 15 Stealers that died died turn one, after they swung, that's still (80+15+15+15) 125 attacks. Odds for that are...
Okay, so 125 Stealer attacks, against a 2+/4++ Custodian Guard. Odds of killing are:
Lets say he rolled awesome. My 5 banshees even charged in to help the custodies...managed to kill 1 stealer and then the stealers spent a lot of their 8 guys left to wipe out the banshees.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The hurricane bolters on the bikes just make me want to put my footdar away for this edition even before I play custodies once.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/27 03:54:58
koooaei wrote: We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
admironheart wrote: Lets say he rolled awesome. My 5 banshees even charged in to help the custodies...managed to kill 1 stealer and then the stealers spent a lot of their 8 guys left to wipe out the banshees.
Yes, that's fine. I'm not accusing you of lying-sorry if you got that impression.
I'm just saying that an anecdote about (un)lucky rolling isn't a solid foundation for tactical advice. Rolling hot enough, a grot can take on a warlord titan. (Well, a squad can-one grot can't physically chew through the wounds fast enough.)
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I would go as many with Pyschic powers. Their 6++ FnP againt MW won't save a lot of them. When you'll have destroyed a couple of units, the strength of the army will lower dramaticaly.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
