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Which empire within the Imperium is more powerful?
Who wins an all out war?
Who controls a larger section of the galaxy?
Who is more important to the long–term success of the Imperium?

I don't think you understand the scale of the mechanicus. Its influence spans the breadth of the entire Imperium whereas Ultramar only covers a mere portion in comparison. To put things in perspective, the mechanicus' monopoly on tech means that they control the vast majority of arms production, development and more importantly ships. Without them, most of the Imperial war machine would grind to a halt overnight. In a conflict, assuming any techpriests in Ultramar also join the mechanicus' side, then Ultramar is hosed.

Admech could just tell all the ships on Ultramar to stop working and certain planets are more allied with admech than the rest of the imperium. It's entirely one sided.

If AdMech ever decided they didn't want to play nice with the Imperium anymore the Imperium would essentially cease to exist on the galactic scale.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If AdMech ever decided they didn't want to play nice with the Imperium anymore the Imperium would essentially cease to exist on the galactic scale.

But so would the Mechanicus, to be fair. It's a symbiotic relationship; AM keeps all the tech running, sure, but the Imperium manages every other aspect of the empire, and the glut of common humanity far outweighs the Mechanicus in a body count, even with servitors etc. taken into consideration.

I think it's likely fair to say that the Mechanicus has more power to do immediate harm to the Imperium, if they were so inclined, but long-term their survival depends on one another.

They are strong enough to be an allied partner of the Imperium. They are one of the heads on the two headed aquila that symbolizes the the whole. They existed before the Imperium.

Agreed. The Ad Mech isn't so much a polity within the Imperium as it is a separate sister-empire of (sort of)humans living in symbiosis with the Imperium.

It's an order of magnitude bigger than Ultramar, which is but one small sector of Imperial worlds.

Simply put why would they fight each other, it's a non starter for many reasons the most obvious one being guilliman and crawl being best buds apparently, guilliman leading the imperium, also ultramar has a number of forge worlds etc within it, its a region of space containing shrine worlds with SOB, inquisition bastions its own imperial navy fleet and a not insignificant number of chapter homeworlds. not to mention attacking ultramar would see the ad mech go to war with what was the largest legion and can probably call upon the entire war might of the imperium. To help them out, it would essentially be the admech starting a civil war and the imperium has been good for the admech so why would they do that?

Ice_can wrote:
Simply put why would they fight each other. not to mention attacking ultramar would see the ad mech go to war with what was the largest legion and can probably call upon the entire war might of the imperium. To help them out, it would essentially be the admech starting a civil war and the imperium has been good for the admech so why would they do that?

The demands of "plot" will always find a reason for war, a good one if the writers are good or a bad one if they have to get their paycheck from GW.

The AdMech won't start a fight over small fry, not even an STC design like the Baal Predator (and Lucifer Rhino-chassis engines) the Blood Angels and successors hoard for themself. If that's not worth it there's also no reason to attack Ultramar, unless the Ultramarines somehow massively insulted the AdMech - worse than the BA do with keeping a few STCs for themself. The highest Tech-Magos (and Guilliman ofc) are smart enough to not attack first, so in a conflict like this there will be no open war declared and no hostilities admitted.

But as for what happens, well, what can the Ultramarines do if all their ships and all ships about to bring in supplies to Ultramar have to go on 300-year periodical service? They have a few TechMarines who in theory keep the Chapter fleet working, but then there's no one maintaining war gear or building new guns. Will their fleet assets agree to move if the AdMech says not to? Without Mechanicus support they'd be crippled in short order, and they're one of the Chapters who are less reliant on AdMech help than many others.

Admech, hands down. The political-economic weight they can throw around is unbelievable.

Rajah wrote:
Which empire within the Imperium is more powerful?
Who wins an all out war?
Who controls a larger section of the galaxy?
Who is more important to the long–term success of the Imperium?

The Adeptus Mechanicus has a serious edge. They have holdings all over the place, a near-monopoly on advanced technologies, the only entity that can conduct serious scientific research, have a network of alliances and feudal oaths, and they keep all of the good for their own use. The only advantage Ultramar would have is in the fields of leadership, and the fact that they are much respected across all segments of (loyal) Imperial society. The Adeptus Mechanicus, because of their religion and insular nature, are held in suspicion in some quarters, including powerful ones.


I would say that both entities are vital to the long term health of the Imperium of Man on a strategic level.

The Imperium is an empire of a million stars, and the Adeptus Mechanicus has their mechandrites in all of them to some degree.

Even shrine worlds need someone to keep things running, after all.

I love me my Ultramarines, but the Adeptus Mechanicus is one of the core parts that keeps the Imperium going.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Agreed. The Ad Mech isn't so much a polity within the Imperium as it is a separate sister-empire of (sort of)humans living in symbiosis with the Imperium.

It's an order of magnitude bigger than Ultramar, which is but one small sector of Imperial worlds.

Possibly 2 or 3 orders of magnitude.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If AdMech ever decided they didn't want to play nice with the Imperium anymore the Imperium would essentially cease to exist on the galactic scale.

Nope. Remember HH? Horus had Mechanicum on his side, organization way stronger than Adeptus Mechanicus (which is just decentralized broken shards of Mechanicum reformed to pose less danger) yet somehow he lost, didn't he? You're forgetting Imperium controls nearly 100% of raw resources keeping various FWs afloat so if AM ever wanted a revolt, they would better learn how to eat metal and generate electricity with human powered treadmills only real quick.

Spetulhu wrote:
But as for what happens, well, what can the Ultramarines do if all their ships and all ships about to bring in supplies to Ultramar have to go on 300-year periodical service? They have a few TechMarines who in theory keep the Chapter fleet working, but then there's no one maintaining war gear or building new guns. Will their fleet assets agree to move if the AdMech says not to? Without Mechanicus support they'd be crippled in short order, and they're one of the Chapters who are less reliant on AdMech help than many others.

You realize Forge World Konor (that planet right next to Macragge named after RG's dad) is perpetually bound to obey Ultramar/Rob, not Mars, right? Ultramar is literally the least reliant on Mars organization in the whole Imperium...

Is Konor bound to follow Ultramar rather than Mars, if push came to shove?

 Irbis wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If AdMech ever decided they didn't want to play nice with the Imperium anymore the Imperium would essentially cease to exist on the galactic scale.

Nope. Remember HH? Horus had Mechanicum on his side, organization way stronger than Adeptus Mechanicus (which is just decentralized broken shards of Mechanicum reformed to pose less danger) yet somehow he lost, didn't he? You're forgetting Imperium controls nearly 100% of raw resources keeping various FWs afloat so if AM ever wanted a revolt, they would better learn how to eat metal and generate electricity with human powered treadmills only real quick.

Just a note, it wasn't the ENTIRE Mechanicum. He split the faction in two, roughly, including the Fabricator-General Kelbor-Hal. His control over the Mechanicum, at least on Mars, was broken by the Imperial Fists descending en masse and the loyalist Martians putting up for more of a resistance than they intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rajah wrote:
Is Konor bound to follow Ultramar rather than Mars, if push came to shove?

Given it's named after Roboute's father, and is very solidly in the Realm of Ultramar (not even the 500 Worlds, Ultramar itself), I'd say it's very likely to follow Guilliman over Mars.

Rajah wrote:
Is Konor bound to follow Ultramar rather than Mars, if push came to shove?

Seeing most powerful AM leader in history backed by most charismatic primarch (who was also de facto acting Emperor at the time) tried to convert them to their camp and failed, I don't see anyone else having a chance of doing that, especially modern AM mooks in current decentralized organization.

Just a note, it wasn't the ENTIRE Mechanicum

Yes, not 100% of it, but he had almost entire leadership and most of important Forge Worlds in his pocket. So many of the leaders in fact Martian PDF equivalent declared for Horus and kicked the collective asses of IF invaders and remaining loyalists booting them off planet.

Even so, as you can see in FW Horus Heresy series, the first order of business of traitor Forges was starting to raid everyone around for supplies as regular deliveries were immediately cut. So, yeah, AM can't rebel without stockpiling massive amounts of resources first and I'd assume that would raise a lot of eyebrows.