Switch Theme:

Ignore cover vs Admechs Shroudpsalm  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics would ignore the bonus to a unit's saving throws conferred by Shroudpsalm.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?
It literally says it gives them the bonus as if they were in cover. Anything that ignores cover ignores cover, regardless of where the cover comes from.

+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




As you have pointed out numerous times "as if" is not the same as "is". A good case can be made that they models should get the bonus to their armor save since they are not in cover but get the same bonus as if they were in cover. Meaning they get +1 to their armor save if they are not in cover and ignore cover doesn't interact with the canticle.

Strangely enough units in cover would still benefit since the canticle says that if they are in cover then they are not effected by the canticle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 00:02:27


 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Boston, UK

Simple answer to me, as an admech player myself, is that if this wasn't a cover save, they wouldn't have mentioned cover at all. Ie shroud psalm would just confer +1.
Ymmv.

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
As you have pointed out numerous times "as if" is not the same as "is". A good case can be made that they models should get the bonus to their armor save since they are not in cover but get the same bonus as if they were in cover. Meaning they get +1 to their armor save if they are not in cover and ignore cover doesn't interact with the canticle.

Strangely enough units in cover would still benefit since the canticle says that if they are in cover then they are not effected by the canticle.


Whilst I agree it’s intended to be functionally identical, and thus counts as cover, that would be RAI and I’m also surprised our local RAW advocate is going with RAI on this one!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 r_squared wrote:
Simple answer to me, as an admech player myself, is that if this wasn't a cover save, they wouldn't have mentioned cover at all. Ie shroud psalm would just confer +1.
Ymmv.


If it would just say +1 it would stack up with cover.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
3225 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Also "cover" in this instance might be short hand for +1 vs shooting but not vs melee. GW is not noted for its consistancy in verbage use in its rules.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






It says cover in the rule, so anything that ignores cover also ignores Shroudpsalm.

+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Shroudpsalm says "as if in cover". If it just said "cover" then it would be obvious that it could be ignored. This could be another instance where e-book and paper are not matching up. I'm using paper and I know that you like e-books.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






This isn't a case of "as if" not being good enough, like it is when something acts "as if" it were a phase.

"Affected units gain the bonus to their armour saving throws as if they were in cover."

Well, if we want to get SUPER technical, there is no such thing as an "armour saving throw" in the game anymore. Only "Saves" and "Invulnerable Saves", so RaW Shroudpsalm doesn't do anything.

Pretending that it affects "saving throws" instead of "armour saving throws", then it's explicitly giving them the bonus granted by the cover mechanic in the rulebook (+1 to normal saves, not invulnerables, not in the fight phase), and thus anything that ignores cover will ignore Shroudpsalm.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 17:47:29


+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




I agree that it is giving the same bonus as cover but I don't agree that it is "cover". I think that they just meant the model(s) gain +1 vs shooting and no bonus vs melee. "Cover" in this case is just short hand for that bonus.

It would be the same as if they said a model has a save characteristic as if they were wearing TDA. The model may or may not have terminator armor on but that was just a shorthand way of saying 2+/5++.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I agree that it is giving the same bonus as cover but I don't agree that it is "cover". I think that they just meant the model(s) gain +1 vs shooting and no bonus vs melee. "Cover" in this case is just short hand for that bonus.

It would be the same as if they said a model has a save characteristic as if they were wearing TDA. The model may or may not have terminator armor on but that was just a shorthand way of saying 2+/5++.
By that logic something that has AP-1 doesn't modify my save rolls by -1 because it's shorthand for +1.

You can't just make up stuff to suit your needs. Cover has an explicit definition. Things that ignore cover IGNORE THE COVER BONUS.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 19:25:47


+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I agree that it is giving the same bonus as cover but I don't agree that it is "cover". I think that they just meant the model(s) gain +1 vs shooting and no bonus vs melee. "Cover" in this case is just short hand for that bonus.

It would be the same as if they said a model has a save characteristic as if they were wearing TDA. The model may or may not have terminator armor on but that was just a shorthand way of saying 2+/5++.


It may only be shorthand for that bonus, but anything that ignores cover ignores things that use that shorthand saying as if it's cover. The same mechanics affecting cover will affect it.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




I'm not making up things. The rule says the model(s) get a bonus on their save "as if it was in cover". It doesn't say the models gain cover only that their saves are improved as if it was in cover.

Saying a model can move as if it could fly is not the same as having the fly rule. The effects are (usually) the same but there may be different interactions with other rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm not making up things. The rule says the model(s) get a bonus on their save "as if it was in cover". It doesn't say the models gain cover only that their saves are improved as if it was in cover.

Saying a model can move as if it could fly is not the same as having the fly rule. The effects are (usually) the same but there may be different interactions with other rules.


If there was some ability that affected a unit to say that it does not get the benefits of FLY, then it would affect a unit that would move as if it had FLY. You have something here that confers a bonus using the mechanics of the Cover rule. Anything that would affect the cover rule 9make it better or, in this case, ignore the cover) will affect something that confers a bonus using the mechanics of the Cover rule just as much as if it said it had cover.

If they didn't want something to lose the benefit to weapons that ignore cover, they would have merely said that you get a +1 armor save against ranged attacks. They didn't do that, they used a specific mechanic they had in place. Anything that affects that mechanic will affect the unit using that mechanic.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




And yet "as if phase X" is not treated the same as "phase X". Please explain the difference. If "as if" means similar to but not exactly in one instance then it should be regarded that way in all instances.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






Leo_the_Rat wrote:
And yet "as if phase X" is not treated the same as "phase X". Please explain the difference. If "as if" means similar to but not exactly in one instance then it should be regarded that way in all instances.
Because Phases are different to cover?

It's almost like Cover and Phases are different things or something.

+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Yes, they are but the rules should be using consistent wordings and interpretations. Saying treating something "as if" it was a dog (but it isn't a dog) should be the same as saying treat something "as if" it was a cat (but it isn't a cat). To say that one "as if" should be treated differently than the other makes no sense.

@doctortom- they could have just as easily said that it grants cover if they wanted to give the cover bonus. They chose "as if" they had cover. There must be a reason for the difference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/07 20:01:14


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
And yet "as if phase X" is not treated the same as "phase X". Please explain the difference. If "as if" means similar to but not exactly in one instance then it should be regarded that way in all instances.


If you are told "you may fight as if it was your fight phase", then would you not follow the rules for the fight phase? I suppose if you''re completely ignoring the rules for fighting, and insist that you solve the fight with your opponent by doing rock aper scissors, but people playing the game would follow the rules for fighting even though it's only "as if" it was your fight phase.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 20:10:25


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 doctortom wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
And yet "as if phase X" is not treated the same as "phase X". Please explain the difference. If "as if" means similar to but not exactly in one instance then it should be regarded that way in all instances.


If you are told "you may fight as if it was your fight phase", then would you not follow the rules for the fight phase? Or, do you completely ignore the rules for fighting, and insist that you solve the fight with your opponent by doing rock paper scissors?


Well what was the arqument regarding "as if shooting phase" where people arqued one rule wasn't applied because "as if shooting phase" didn't make it "shooting phase"?

Hopefully BCB wasn't arquing there "as if shooting phase" means it's not shooting phase and thus rule not applicable!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/07 20:11:39


“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
3225 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm



Illinois

marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?

I'm going to throw in a vote for the "they are not in cover" camp. They gain the bonus to their Save, but don't count as being in cover for rules purposes.

2k poorly optimized Necrons.

DR:90S++G+MB--I+Pw40k16#+D++A+/aWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






Archebius wrote:
marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?

I'm going to throw in a vote for the "they are not in cover" camp. They gain the bonus to their Save, but don't count as being in cover for rules purposes.
Quite literally the opposite of what the rule says. By your logic, Battle Focus never works because the unit moved, even though the rule says they act as if they were stationary.

+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/750233.page#9822677

Ah so in one case "as if X" doesn't make it X while here suddenly it makes it.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
3225 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






tneva82 wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/750233.page#9822677

Ah so in one case "as if X" doesn't make it X while here suddenly it makes it.
You're comparing Apples to Macro Cannons. Nice e-Stalking though.

The problem with the "as if it were the Shooting Phase" is that the stratagem says it only works in that phase, so 'as if' is not enough. The stratagem is asking a simple question "Is it the shooting phase?" the answer is still "No" outside the shooting phase, even if a unit is acting as if it is the shooting phase.

Ignores Cover, meanwhile, doesn't specify a phase, so it works for all instances of cover.

If you're gonna try and "gotcha", at least try and do it right.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 12:56:55


+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm



Illinois

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Archebius wrote:
marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?

I'm going to throw in a vote for the "they are not in cover" camp. They gain the bonus to their Save, but don't count as being in cover for rules purposes.
Quite literally the opposite of what the rule says. By your logic, Battle Focus never works because the unit moved, even though the rule says they act as if they were stationary.
No, that's... not at all what I'm saying.

Battle Focus = Treat weapons as if as the unit had remained stationary - but that doesn't mean that the unit remained stationary.
Shroudpsalm = Gain a bonus to saving throw as if the unit were in cover - but that doesn't mean that the unit is in cover.

2k poorly optimized Necrons.

DR:90S++G+MB--I+Pw40k16#+D++A+/aWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





 BaconCatBug wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/750233.page#9822677

Ah so in one case "as if X" doesn't make it X while here suddenly it makes it.
You're comparing Apples to Macro Cannons. Nice e-Stalking though.

The problem with the "as if it were the Shooting Phase" is that the stratagem says it only works in that phase, so 'as if' is not enough. The stratagem is asking a simple question "Is it the shooting phase?" the answer is still "No" outside the shooting phase, even if a unit is acting as if it is the shooting phase.

Ignores Cover, meanwhile, doesn't specify a phase, so it works for all instances of cover.

If you're gonna try and "gotcha", at least try and do it right.


Well you can only ignore cover if the unit you're targeting is in cover so it seems the same logic could apply.

There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov

In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo

He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Archebius wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Archebius wrote:
marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?

I'm going to throw in a vote for the "they are not in cover" camp. They gain the bonus to their Save, but don't count as being in cover for rules purposes.
Quite literally the opposite of what the rule says. By your logic, Battle Focus never works because the unit moved, even though the rule says they act as if they were stationary.
No, that's... not at all what I'm saying.

Battle Focus = Treat weapons as if as the unit had remained stationary - but that doesn't mean that the unit remained stationary.
Shroudpsalm = Gain a bonus to saving throw as if the unit were in cover - but that doesn't mean that the unit is in cover.


No, but it's using the rules mechanics of cover, which means any other rules that will affect that rule will affect the unit with Shroudpsalm.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





As if is not the same thing as is, however as if it were is semantic equivalent of is.

Being in cover is semantically equal to being as if they are in cover.

Anything that ignores cover ignores the bonus from shroudpsalm.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Not quite semantically they are not the same thing or else the phrase would be meaningless. It means that they share a commonality but are not the same thing.

Margarine has the same taste as if it was butter. Means that it tastes like butter but is something else. If something feels as if it was fur means that it feels like fur but it's not fur.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: