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Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics would ignore the bonus to a unit's saving throws conferred by Shroudpsalm.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?
It literally says it gives them the bonus as if they were in cover. Anything that ignores cover ignores cover, regardless of where the cover comes from.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




As you have pointed out numerous times "as if" is not the same as "is". A good case can be made that they models should get the bonus to their armor save since they are not in cover but get the same bonus as if they were in cover. Meaning they get +1 to their armor save if they are not in cover and ignore cover doesn't interact with the canticle.

Strangely enough units in cover would still benefit since the canticle says that if they are in cover then they are not effected by the canticle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 00:02:27


 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

Simple answer to me, as an admech player myself, is that if this wasn't a cover save, they wouldn't have mentioned cover at all. Ie shroud psalm would just confer +1.
Ymmv.

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
As you have pointed out numerous times "as if" is not the same as "is". A good case can be made that they models should get the bonus to their armor save since they are not in cover but get the same bonus as if they were in cover. Meaning they get +1 to their armor save if they are not in cover and ignore cover doesn't interact with the canticle.

Strangely enough units in cover would still benefit since the canticle says that if they are in cover then they are not effected by the canticle.


Whilst I agree it’s intended to be functionally identical, and thus counts as cover, that would be RAI and I’m also surprised our local RAW advocate is going with RAI on this one!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 r_squared wrote:
Simple answer to me, as an admech player myself, is that if this wasn't a cover save, they wouldn't have mentioned cover at all. Ie shroud psalm would just confer +1.
Ymmv.


If it would just say +1 it would stack up with cover.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Also "cover" in this instance might be short hand for +1 vs shooting but not vs melee. GW is not noted for its consistancy in verbage use in its rules.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






It says cover in the rule, so anything that ignores cover also ignores Shroudpsalm.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Shroudpsalm says "as if in cover". If it just said "cover" then it would be obvious that it could be ignored. This could be another instance where e-book and paper are not matching up. I'm using paper and I know that you like e-books.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






This isn't a case of "as if" not being good enough, like it is when something acts "as if" it were a phase.

"Affected units gain the bonus to their armour saving throws as if they were in cover."

Well, if we want to get SUPER technical, there is no such thing as an "armour saving throw" in the game anymore. Only "Saves" and "Invulnerable Saves", so RaW Shroudpsalm doesn't do anything.

Pretending that it affects "saving throws" instead of "armour saving throws", then it's explicitly giving them the bonus granted by the cover mechanic in the rulebook (+1 to normal saves, not invulnerables, not in the fight phase), and thus anything that ignores cover will ignore Shroudpsalm.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 17:47:29


 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




I agree that it is giving the same bonus as cover but I don't agree that it is "cover". I think that they just meant the model(s) gain +1 vs shooting and no bonus vs melee. "Cover" in this case is just short hand for that bonus.

It would be the same as if they said a model has a save characteristic as if they were wearing TDA. The model may or may not have terminator armor on but that was just a shorthand way of saying 2+/5++.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I agree that it is giving the same bonus as cover but I don't agree that it is "cover". I think that they just meant the model(s) gain +1 vs shooting and no bonus vs melee. "Cover" in this case is just short hand for that bonus.

It would be the same as if they said a model has a save characteristic as if they were wearing TDA. The model may or may not have terminator armor on but that was just a shorthand way of saying 2+/5++.
By that logic something that has AP-1 doesn't modify my save rolls by -1 because it's shorthand for +1.

You can't just make up stuff to suit your needs. Cover has an explicit definition. Things that ignore cover IGNORE THE COVER BONUS.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 19:25:47


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I agree that it is giving the same bonus as cover but I don't agree that it is "cover". I think that they just meant the model(s) gain +1 vs shooting and no bonus vs melee. "Cover" in this case is just short hand for that bonus.

It would be the same as if they said a model has a save characteristic as if they were wearing TDA. The model may or may not have terminator armor on but that was just a shorthand way of saying 2+/5++.


It may only be shorthand for that bonus, but anything that ignores cover ignores things that use that shorthand saying as if it's cover. The same mechanics affecting cover will affect it.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




I'm not making up things. The rule says the model(s) get a bonus on their save "as if it was in cover". It doesn't say the models gain cover only that their saves are improved as if it was in cover.

Saying a model can move as if it could fly is not the same as having the fly rule. The effects are (usually) the same but there may be different interactions with other rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm not making up things. The rule says the model(s) get a bonus on their save "as if it was in cover". It doesn't say the models gain cover only that their saves are improved as if it was in cover.

Saying a model can move as if it could fly is not the same as having the fly rule. The effects are (usually) the same but there may be different interactions with other rules.


If there was some ability that affected a unit to say that it does not get the benefits of FLY, then it would affect a unit that would move as if it had FLY. You have something here that confers a bonus using the mechanics of the Cover rule. Anything that would affect the cover rule 9make it better or, in this case, ignore the cover) will affect something that confers a bonus using the mechanics of the Cover rule just as much as if it said it had cover.

If they didn't want something to lose the benefit to weapons that ignore cover, they would have merely said that you get a +1 armor save against ranged attacks. They didn't do that, they used a specific mechanic they had in place. Anything that affects that mechanic will affect the unit using that mechanic.
   
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




And yet "as if phase X" is not treated the same as "phase X". Please explain the difference. If "as if" means similar to but not exactly in one instance then it should be regarded that way in all instances.
   
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Norn Queen






Leo_the_Rat wrote:
And yet "as if phase X" is not treated the same as "phase X". Please explain the difference. If "as if" means similar to but not exactly in one instance then it should be regarded that way in all instances.
Because Phases are different to cover?

It's almost like Cover and Phases are different things or something.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Yes, they are but the rules should be using consistent wordings and interpretations. Saying treating something "as if" it was a dog (but it isn't a dog) should be the same as saying treat something "as if" it was a cat (but it isn't a cat). To say that one "as if" should be treated differently than the other makes no sense.

@doctortom- they could have just as easily said that it grants cover if they wanted to give the cover bonus. They chose "as if" they had cover. There must be a reason for the difference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/07 20:01:14


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
And yet "as if phase X" is not treated the same as "phase X". Please explain the difference. If "as if" means similar to but not exactly in one instance then it should be regarded that way in all instances.


If you are told "you may fight as if it was your fight phase", then would you not follow the rules for the fight phase? I suppose if you''re completely ignoring the rules for fighting, and insist that you solve the fight with your opponent by doing rock aper scissors, but people playing the game would follow the rules for fighting even though it's only "as if" it was your fight phase.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/07 20:10:25


 
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 doctortom wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
And yet "as if phase X" is not treated the same as "phase X". Please explain the difference. If "as if" means similar to but not exactly in one instance then it should be regarded that way in all instances.


If you are told "you may fight as if it was your fight phase", then would you not follow the rules for the fight phase? Or, do you completely ignore the rules for fighting, and insist that you solve the fight with your opponent by doing rock paper scissors?


Well what was the arqument regarding "as if shooting phase" where people arqued one rule wasn't applied because "as if shooting phase" didn't make it "shooting phase"?

Hopefully BCB wasn't arquing there "as if shooting phase" means it's not shooting phase and thus rule not applicable!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/07 20:11:39


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
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Sister Oh-So Repentia



Illinois

marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?

I'm going to throw in a vote for the "they are not in cover" camp. They gain the bonus to their Save, but don't count as being in cover for rules purposes.

2k poorly optimized Necrons.
1k poorly assembled Sisters.

DR:90S++G+MB--I+Pw40k16#+D++A+/aWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Archebius wrote:
marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?

I'm going to throw in a vote for the "they are not in cover" camp. They gain the bonus to their Save, but don't count as being in cover for rules purposes.
Quite literally the opposite of what the rule says. By your logic, Battle Focus never works because the unit moved, even though the rule says they act as if they were stationary.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/750233.page#9822677

Ah so in one case "as if X" doesn't make it X while here suddenly it makes it.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






tneva82 wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/750233.page#9822677

Ah so in one case "as if X" doesn't make it X while here suddenly it makes it.
You're comparing Apples to Macro Cannons. Nice e-Stalking though.

The problem with the "as if it were the Shooting Phase" is that the stratagem says it only works in that phase, so 'as if' is not enough. The stratagem is asking a simple question "Is it the shooting phase?" the answer is still "No" outside the shooting phase, even if a unit is acting as if it is the shooting phase.

Ignores Cover, meanwhile, doesn't specify a phase, so it works for all instances of cover.

If you're gonna try and "gotcha", at least try and do it right.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/04/09 12:56:55


 
   
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Sister Oh-So Repentia



Illinois

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Archebius wrote:
marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?

I'm going to throw in a vote for the "they are not in cover" camp. They gain the bonus to their Save, but don't count as being in cover for rules purposes.
Quite literally the opposite of what the rule says. By your logic, Battle Focus never works because the unit moved, even though the rule says they act as if they were stationary.
No, that's... not at all what I'm saying.

Battle Focus = Treat weapons as if as the unit had remained stationary - but that doesn't mean that the unit remained stationary.
Shroudpsalm = Gain a bonus to saving throw as if the unit were in cover - but that doesn't mean that the unit is in cover.

2k poorly optimized Necrons.
1k poorly assembled Sisters.

DR:90S++G+MB--I+Pw40k16#+D++A+/aWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





 BaconCatBug wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/750233.page#9822677

Ah so in one case "as if X" doesn't make it X while here suddenly it makes it.
You're comparing Apples to Macro Cannons. Nice e-Stalking though.

The problem with the "as if it were the Shooting Phase" is that the stratagem says it only works in that phase, so 'as if' is not enough. The stratagem is asking a simple question "Is it the shooting phase?" the answer is still "No" outside the shooting phase, even if a unit is acting as if it is the shooting phase.

Ignores Cover, meanwhile, doesn't specify a phase, so it works for all instances of cover.

If you're gonna try and "gotcha", at least try and do it right.


Well you can only ignore cover if the unit you're targeting is in cover so it seems the same logic could apply.

There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov

In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo

He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
 
   
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Archebius wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Archebius wrote:
marvin5 wrote:
The Canticle says:

"Affected units gain the bonus to their saving throw as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected"

So are they in cover for the purpose of for example Imperial fists, that ignore cover?

I'm going to throw in a vote for the "they are not in cover" camp. They gain the bonus to their Save, but don't count as being in cover for rules purposes.
Quite literally the opposite of what the rule says. By your logic, Battle Focus never works because the unit moved, even though the rule says they act as if they were stationary.
No, that's... not at all what I'm saying.

Battle Focus = Treat weapons as if as the unit had remained stationary - but that doesn't mean that the unit remained stationary.
Shroudpsalm = Gain a bonus to saving throw as if the unit were in cover - but that doesn't mean that the unit is in cover.


No, but it's using the rules mechanics of cover, which means any other rules that will affect that rule will affect the unit with Shroudpsalm.
   
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






As if is not the same thing as is, however as if it were is semantic equivalent of is.

Being in cover is semantically equal to being as if they are in cover.

Anything that ignores cover ignores the bonus from shroudpsalm.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Not quite semantically they are not the same thing or else the phrase would be meaningless. It means that they share a commonality but are not the same thing.

Margarine has the same taste as if it was butter. Means that it tastes like butter but is something else. If something feels as if it was fur means that it feels like fur but it's not fur.
   
 
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