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1: purifiers gain +1 attack, their smite range is increased by 3 inches.
2: terminators cost 35 points.
3: (this fixes purgation squads) psycanons are 10 points, incinerators are 10, this goes for terminators as well.
4: interceptors cost 23 points. Strike guys cost 19.
5: Dreadknight weapons costs lowered for non grandmasters.
6: Our spells can be cast twice a turn if the army is 100% grey Knights and inquisition.
7: intoroduce a relic that gives us extra command points in the event we kill an enemy HQ and or some other gimmick
8: demons don’t get a stratagem that makes them auto win vs Grey Knights.
9: Our librarians may take from space marine powers
10: sanctuary can give a 2++. (Edit: I have chosen against this upon discussion down below)
11: paladins get 4 attacks, 4+ invuln, never lose people to morale, 2 spells and can intercept wounds for characters, and become ws and bs 2+
12: Crowe’s sword is ap-3
13: If your army consists of only grey Knights and inquisition, you have no limit on what can be deployed in deep strike.
14: Something needs to be done to make it so cc characters don’t just get sniped the moment after they make a charge.

This is the short list of changes. My feelings are that terminators are so overpriced they’re almost unplayable, and remember custodes cost less than paladins. I also think a tac marine at 10 points is still a worse scion, and that 3+ is overpriced across the board.

List of additional proposed changes

Xenomancers wrote:I think you need to add command point reductions on all of the greyknight stratagems. Not a single one of them is worth more than 1 command point.

Purifiers - add deep strike.

10: hell no, no more 2++ ever for anything.
12: why?

 Formosa wrote:
10: hell no, no more 2++ ever for anything.
12: why?

10: we’re using 2 command points and need a spell to go off for that 99% of the time, and smite already gimps it. This isn’t 7th ed where mortal wounds aren’t a thing. Also Draigo can still 2++ in the current situation, and nobody uses him regardless. Just because a single model has a 2++ that doesn’t mean you can’t just shoot something else.

12: Crowe’s sword having no AP makes it the same as a combat knife. He’s trash right now because of it.

I agree, no 2++.

2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

The problem would be rerolling save rolls of 1 and not being bound by a key word. The whole point of the keyword system was to avoid voldus and a SM librarian Gating up a Forgeworld knight into charge range turn one, after two primaris psykers cast -1 to hit on it and +1 armor.

I do not think 2++ invulns are as broken as people think, but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

 Jaxler wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

The problem would be rerolling save rolls of 1 and not being bound by a key word. The whole point of the keyword system was to avoid voldus and a SM librarian Gating up a Forgeworld knight into charge range turn one, after two primaris psykers cast -1 to hit on it and +1 armor.

I do not think 2++ invulns are as broken as people think, but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

Yes they are, they are exactly as broken as people think they are, that's why no one wants them to return.

 Jaxler wrote:
but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

That alone is the reason why it shouldn't exist.

 Desubot wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

That alone is the reason why it shouldn't exist.

Fair enough, but do the other points hold up?

"If your army consists of only grey Knights and inquisition, you have no limit on what can be deployed in deep strike. "

No, because then BA would have to get it too. We are just as deep strikey in the fluff.

Martel732 wrote:
"If your army consists of only grey Knights and inquisition, you have no limit on what can be deployed in deep strike. "

No, because then BA would have to get it too. We are just as deep strikey in the fluff.

Why shouldn’t you be? If anything this discourages soup.

Grey Knights need a top to bottom redesign. This isn't something you can fix with a bulleted list. I would start by dropping their chapter tactic altogether, and giving them something actually useful. Additionally, I would scrap all of their psychic powers except astral aim, and write new ones. Get rid of rites of banishment altogether. Either give them a real smite or spell in its place, or nothing. There's no reason to pay a premium for what is probably the worst power in the game. This is the starting point. From there you can adjust points, saves, toughness values, shots, and then expand into writing real stratagems that actually do something.

So make things cheaper, and make them (in some instances) incredibly good. I feel like you could just throw that idea at any codex to appease the players though.

Martel732 wrote:
"If your army consists of only grey Knights and inquisition, you have no limit on what can be deployed in deep strike. "

No, because then BA would have to get it too. We are just as deep strikey in the fluff.

Technically all marines are like this.

 Elbows wrote:
So make things cheaper, and make them (in some instances) incredibly good. I feel like you could just throw that idea at any codex to appease the players though.

The quickest way to fix anything that is overpriced is to either buff it or lower the price.

I think you need to add command point reductions on all of the greyknight stratagems. Not a single one of them is worth more than 1 command point.

Purifiers - add deep strike.

I propose we avoid quick solutions. The GK do need a rework from ground up. Quick jobs is one of the leading problems with rules designers.

ProwlerPC wrote:I propose we avoid quick solutions. The GK do need a rework from ground up. Quick jobs is one of the leading problems with rules designers.

A quick fix is useful if it’s a bandaid until later. Grey Knights need a rework, but until we get a new codex in 5 years, we’re gonna have to work with stuff that can be done via FAQ/errata and points changes.

Xenomancers wrote:I think you need to add command point reductions on all of the greyknight stratagems. Not a single one of them is worth more than 1 command point.

Purifiers - add deep strike.

I think I’ll start adding additional changes onto the list.

 Formosa wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

The problem would be rerolling save rolls of 1 and not being bound by a key word. The whole point of the keyword system was to avoid voldus and a SM librarian Gating up a Forgeworld knight into charge range turn one, after two primaris psykers cast -1 to hit on it and +1 armor.

I do not think 2++ invulns are as broken as people think, but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

Yes they are, they are exactly as broken as people think they are, that's why no one wants them to return.

Then we should pay some attention to Bullgryns since they get a 1+/2++ using Astra Militarum stratagems and a Praetor Vexilla or Saint Celestine. Or is this an exception to the rule?

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you need to add command point reductions on all of the greyknight stratagems. Not a single one of them is worth more than 1 command point.

Purifiers - add deep strike.

Ability to fight twice isn't worth more then 1 CP, +1 Inv save isn't worth more then one CP. +1 to S and AP of nearly the entire ranged armory isn't worth more then 1 CP.

12: Crowe’s sword is ap-3

I believe they fundamentally want to keep his sword APless due to not activating it fully. Given that it's basically been this way the entire time he's been a character. I suggest he'd be better off if he has some sort of rend where upon 6's to hit (or to wound) he automatically pierces armor.

I would change a few things personally to make them interesting.. I like the idea that they could use a psybolt psychic ability and make their weapons S5 (S6 with a newly renamed Stratagem),

WRT Crowe, the entire point is that he refuses to/cannot use the sword's power. He's like Bombadil in Fellowship of the Ring .AP -3 would make this not make sense..

I agree that he needs a boost, but not like that. Maybe if his exploding attacks could also generate exploding attacks, or maybe if the first time he fights a round, successful attacks let him fight again (but then the extra ones don't generate more still).

I think a given attack has something like a 70% chance to wound, so the first one could go on for a while. The second one would have a hard cap of 30 successful wounds if you hit and wounded on literally every single attack, which is obviously well above average results. Even then, since they're AP0 and only D1, it wouldn't be game breaking for 125 point character.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you need to add command point reductions on all of the greyknight stratagems. Not a single one of them is worth more than 1 command point.

Purifiers - add deep strike.

Ability to fight twice isn't worth more then 1 CP, +1 Inv save isn't worth more then one CP. +1 to S and AP of nearly the entire ranged armory isn't worth more then 1 CP.

12: Crowe’s sword is ap-3

I believe they fundamentally want to keep his sword APless due to not activating it fully. Given that it's basically been this way the entire time he's been a character. I suggest he'd be better off if he has some sort of rend where upon 6's to hit (or to wound) he automatically pierces armor.

I would change a few things personally to make them interesting.. I like the idea that they could use a psybolt psychic ability and make their weapons S5 (S6 with a newly renamed Stratagem),

considering bezerkers can do it for free - yes - it is worth 1 command point to attack twice in assault. Tyranids can give a monster reroll hits and wounds for 1 command points - effectively doubling damage - same result.

+1 invo save cost 1 CP for daemons I think too (and they can use it on any unit not just a champion). Eldar get a 4++ for 1 command point on guardians.

KinGensai wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

The problem would be rerolling save rolls of 1 and not being bound by a key word. The whole point of the keyword system was to avoid voldus and a SM librarian Gating up a Forgeworld knight into charge range turn one, after two primaris psykers cast -1 to hit on it and +1 armor.

I do not think 2++ invulns are as broken as people think, but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

Yes they are, they are exactly as broken as people think they are, that's why no one wants them to return.

Then we should pay some attention to Bullgryns since they get a 1+/2++ using Astra Militarum stratagems and a Praetor Vexilla or Saint Celestine. Or is this an exception to the rule?

Abosloutely not, that crap needs fixing too, and unit needs fixing and a 3++ cap, I will never advocate a return to the 2++ days.

KinGensai wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

The problem would be rerolling save rolls of 1 and not being bound by a key word. The whole point of the keyword system was to avoid voldus and a SM librarian Gating up a Forgeworld knight into charge range turn one, after two primaris psykers cast -1 to hit on it and +1 armor.

I do not think 2++ invulns are as broken as people think, but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

Yes they are, they are exactly as broken as people think they are, that's why no one wants them to return.

Then we should pay some attention to Bullgryns since they get a 1+/2++ using Astra Militarum stratagems and a Praetor Vexilla or Saint Celestine. Or is this an exception to the rule?

That's what happens when the designers allow soup to happen. They've created so many things and variables it's almost impossible to avoid missing unplanned combos that break things. GW breaks things and just because 7th, amongst other editions, was broken garbage doesn't mean 8th isn't. I won't argue against those who say it's better, but I will state that the bar was exceptionally low and being 'better' isnt much of a credit.

 Formosa wrote:

KinGensai wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

The problem would be rerolling save rolls of 1 and not being bound by a key word. The whole point of the keyword system was to avoid voldus and a SM librarian Gating up a Forgeworld knight into charge range turn one, after two primaris psykers cast -1 to hit on it and +1 armor.

I do not think 2++ invulns are as broken as people think, but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

Yes they are, they are exactly as broken as people think they are, that's why no one wants them to return.

Then we should pay some attention to Bullgryns since they get a 1+/2++ using Astra Militarum stratagems and a Praetor Vexilla or Saint Celestine. Or is this an exception to the rule?

Abosloutely not, that crap needs fixing too, and unit needs fixing and a 3++ cap, I will never advocate a return to the 2++ days.

Would you advocate more weapons being able to reduce/ deny invo saves?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you need to add command point reductions on all of the greyknight stratagems. Not a single one of them is worth more than 1 command point.

Purifiers - add deep strike.

Ability to fight twice isn't worth more then 1 CP, +1 Inv save isn't worth more then one CP. +1 to S and AP of nearly the entire ranged armory isn't worth more then 1 CP.

12: Crowe’s sword is ap-3

I believe they fundamentally want to keep his sword APless due to not activating it fully. Given that it's basically been this way the entire time he's been a character. I suggest he'd be better off if he has some sort of rend where upon 6's to hit (or to wound) he automatically pierces armor.

I would change a few things personally to make them interesting.. I like the idea that they could use a psybolt psychic ability and make their weapons S5 (S6 with a newly renamed Stratagem),

considering bezerkers can do it for free - yes - it is worth 1 command point to attack twice in assault.

That doesn't add up, guiliman let's ultras re roll hits and wounds, for free, so the same ability is worth 1 cp for everyone else ?

I get what your saying, but can you elaborate a bit as to why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

KinGensai wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

The problem would be rerolling save rolls of 1 and not being bound by a key word. The whole point of the keyword system was to avoid voldus and a SM librarian Gating up a Forgeworld knight into charge range turn one, after two primaris psykers cast -1 to hit on it and +1 armor.

I do not think 2++ invulns are as broken as people think, but I will conceit that I think they’d be painful and unfun to play against, and I perhaps they aught not be allowed.

Yes they are, they are exactly as broken as people think they are, that's why no one wants them to return.

Then we should pay some attention to Bullgryns since they get a 1+/2++ using Astra Militarum stratagems and a Praetor Vexilla or Saint Celestine. Or is this an exception to the rule?

Abosloutely not, that crap needs fixing too, and unit needs fixing and a 3++ cap, I will never advocate a return to the 2++ days.

Would you advocate more weapons being able to reduce/ deny invo saves?

Yep, but only one or the other, not both except in very rare circumstances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry misread, thought you said ignore armour and invun, reducing invuns denying them is ok to me, as long as the weapon doesn't ignore saves too, except in rare circumstances.

 Formosa wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you need to add command point reductions on all of the greyknight stratagems. Not a single one of them is worth more than 1 command point.

Purifiers - add deep strike.

Ability to fight twice isn't worth more then 1 CP, +1 Inv save isn't worth more then one CP. +1 to S and AP of nearly the entire ranged armory isn't worth more then 1 CP.

12: Crowe’s sword is ap-3

I believe they fundamentally want to keep his sword APless due to not activating it fully. Given that it's basically been this way the entire time he's been a character. I suggest he'd be better off if he has some sort of rend where upon 6's to hit (or to wound) he automatically pierces armor.

I would change a few things personally to make them interesting.. I like the idea that they could use a psybolt psychic ability and make their weapons S5 (S6 with a newly renamed Stratagem),

considering bezerkers can do it for free - yes - it is worth 1 command point to attack twice in assault.

That doesn't add up, guiliman let's ultras re roll hits and wounds, for free, so the same ability is worth 1 cp for everyone else ?

I get what your saying, but can you elaborate a bit as to why?

Heres my line of thought. If attacking twice in the shooting phase is 2 CP (tyranids) - attacking twice via stratagem in assault phase should be 1 CP. It would be usable at 2 CP in certain circumstances (like you get lucky and first turn assault with a 10 man unit of paladins) but how can you justify 3CP for an ability that another elite CC unit gets as a special rule?

Also I agree with you about invo denying weapons - they shouldn't have regular AP BUT they should be more common - then a 2++ save wouldn't be so obnoxious. (in this case though a DK has a 2+ save so maybe the max 3++ should remain.)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think you need to add command point reductions on all of the greyknight stratagems. Not a single one of them is worth more than 1 command point.

Purifiers - add deep strike.

Ability to fight twice isn't worth more then 1 CP, +1 Inv save isn't worth more then one CP. +1 to S and AP of nearly the entire ranged armory isn't worth more then 1 CP.

12: Crowe’s sword is ap-3

I believe they fundamentally want to keep his sword APless due to not activating it fully. Given that it's basically been this way the entire time he's been a character. I suggest he'd be better off if he has some sort of rend where upon 6's to hit (or to wound) he automatically pierces armor.

I would change a few things personally to make them interesting.. I like the idea that they could use a psybolt psychic ability and make their weapons S5 (S6 with a newly renamed Stratagem),

considering bezerkers can do it for free - yes - it is worth 1 command point to attack twice in assault.

That doesn't add up, guiliman let's ultras re roll hits and wounds, for free, so the same ability is worth 1 cp for everyone else ?

I get what your saying, but can you elaborate a bit as to why?

Heres my line of thought. If attacking twice in the shooting phase is 2 CP (tyranids) - attacking twice via stratagem in assault phase should be 1 CP. It would be usable at 2 CP in certain circumstances (like you get lucky and first turn assault with a 10 man unit of paladins) but how can you justify 3CP for an ability that another elite CC unit gets as a special rule?

Also I agree with you about invo denying weapons - they shouldn't have regular AP BUT they should be more common - then a 2++ save wouldn't be so obnoxious. (in this case though a DK has a 2+ save so maybe the max 3++ should remain.)

The answer would be to build a specific anti-invuln answer into every army beyond “hope you roll a six and mortal wound”

If we're getting specific, things that would make me excited about Grey Knights:

1. Bring back cleansing flames. Hitting every unit within 12" for 2D6 strength 6, ap0 hits.

2. Combine hammerhand and sanctuary. The caster receives the benefit as well as the target.

3. Astral aim gives its original effect, but also gives +1 BS, and allows the firer to move and ignore the penalty for firing heavy weapons. Units in melee automatically hit their target.

4. Gate of Infinity is a free 18" move rather than a deep strike.

5. Drop vortex of doom. Replace it with psychic amplification. A grey knight unit receives +1 toughness and +5" of movement, and can immediately move.

6. Drop purge soul. Replace it with psychic backlash. When a unit casts a power within 18" of the Grey Knight unit and fails or is denied, the caster takes D3 mortal wounds. The unit receiving this buff has +2 to deny the witch rolls.

As for smite, remove the benefit of flat 3 wounds against Daemons. Instead, change the smite to behave like normal smite.

Stratagems:

Purge the Daemon. 1cp. Successfully manifesting smite this psychic phase will deal 3 mortal wounds to units with the Daemon keyword, rather than rolling for damage.

Fury. 2cp. Use before moving a vehicle in the movement phase. A Grey Knight unit can disembark after the vehicle completes its move, rather than before.

Psychic Reversal. 2cp. Use when one of your Grey Knights powers is successfully denied. This power manifests successfully with the minimum roll to be successful.

True Name. 1cp. Designate a daemon model in your opponent's army. All your units reroll hits and wounds against this target, and this target must subtract 1 from hit rolls and wound rolls when attacking Grey Knights units.

True Name. 1cp. Designate a daemon model in your opponent's army. All your units reroll hits and wounds against this target, and this target must subtract 1 from hit rolls and wound rolls when attacking Grey Knights units.

No, just no.

6. Drop purge soul. Replace it with psychic backlash. When a unit casts a power within 18" of the Grey Knight unit and fails or is denied, the caster takes D3 mortal wounds. The unit receiving this buff has +2 to deny the witch rolls.

Why exactly is this a GK Thing?