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Martel732 wrote:
"If your army consists of only grey Knights and inquisition, you have no limit on what can be deployed in deep strike. "

No, because then BA would have to get it too. We are just as deep strikey in the fluff.

Not to mention demons, or Thousand Sons, or Eldar who all use deepstrike and have stratagems to do so. Last thing we need is null deployment in 8th.

GK already get to reroll wounds on daemons it's the rule called damon hunters (only vehicles don't have it, except Dreads who do). This thread just shows how little use these rerolls really are needed since even the GK OP didn't know about it.

As a GK player myself I vote for a total rewrite. After seeing custodes and primaris the basic idea of what a GK should look like needs to be examined.
Also the GK special weapons need to be looked at as well. They are heavy weapons but don't do heavy weapon work.

Basically the whole book needs to be redone from scratch. I'll play as written but I just see so much that needs fixing.

It's a bit frustrating that Custodes feel like a "fixed" GK to a certain extent. Multiple wounds and decent invulnerable saves are you how make an elite army work. Higher toughness would be nice too, but I understand the argument for keeping GK at T4.

To me, it's the weapons, armor and bikes. If the GK are supposed to have the best equipment then why don't they have the best equipment? Where are the other Dread options? Tanks? Bikes?

To me it's just too little materials are given to GKs.

A few special rule ideas from previous editions:
The shrouding: -1 to hit outside 12” (army special rule)
Psilencers (or possibly psycannons) ignore invul saves
True Grit: storm bolters give +1 attack in CC (or just give everyone an extra attack)
Give psycannons an assault and heavy profile.
Give dreadknights shunt moves again
Give us orbital strikes as a wargear or heavy support option.

Probably the best thing would be to give us inquisition back, ever since we lost them our codex hasn’t had nearly the flavor it once did, nor has it been as competitive.

 Marmatag wrote:
If we're getting specific, things that would make me excited about Grey Knights:

1. Bring back cleansing flames. Hitting every unit within 12" for 2D6 strength 6, ap0 hits.

2. Combine hammerhand and sanctuary. The caster receives the benefit as well as the target.

3. Astral aim gives its original effect, but also gives +1 BS, and allows the firer to move and ignore the penalty for firing heavy weapons. Units in melee automatically hit their target.

4. Gate of Infinity is a free 18" move rather than a deep strike.

5. Drop vortex of doom. Replace it with psychic amplification. A grey knight unit receives +1 toughness and +5" of movement, and can immediately move.

6. Drop purge soul. Replace it with psychic backlash. When a unit casts a power within 18" of the Grey Knight unit and fails or is denied, the caster takes D3 mortal wounds. The unit receiving this buff has +2 to deny the witch rolls.

As for smite, remove the benefit of flat 3 wounds against Daemons. Instead, change the smite to behave like normal smite.

Stratagems:

Purge the Daemon. 1cp. Successfully manifesting smite this psychic phase will deal 3 mortal wounds to units with the Daemon keyword, rather than rolling for damage.

Fury. 2cp. Use before moving a vehicle in the movement phase. A Grey Knight unit can disembark after the vehicle completes its move, rather than before.

Psychic Reversal. 2cp. Use when one of your Grey Knights powers is successfully denied. This power manifests successfully with the minimum roll to be successful.

True Name. 1cp. Designate a daemon model in your opponent's army. All your units reroll hits and wounds against this target, and this target must subtract 1 from hit rolls and wound rolls when attacking Grey Knights units.

True name should proably cost more then 1 CP that's an insanely powerful buff. Also I don't think replacing powers is nesscary, just add new powers. with a army as heavy on psykers as the grey knights, having LOTS of options to choose from is a good idea

 Jaxler wrote:

11: paladins get 4 attacks, 4+ invuln, never lose people to morale, 2 spells and can intercept wounds for characters, and become ws and bs 2+.

There is a story about how a Roman general on victory parades would have a servant detailed to stand behind him and whisper in his ear ‘remember, you are but a man.’

Allow me to be that servant: remember, you are but a Space Marine. Not a Custodian, merely a psychic Space Marine Veteran specially trained for Daemon-hunting and bearing the finest equipment a Space Marine could hope to. Paladins’ rules are bang on where they should be - the leading edge of (loyalist) Terminator statlines with nasty weapons and psychic powers.

Their only issue is points cost. Their rules are similar to a Custodian Guard with a Spear, trading 1 point of each WS, BS, S and T for native Deep Strike and being a psyker. Now that’s an unfair trade in the Custodian’s favour, so if a Custodian with a Spear is 52 points, maybe 48 points would be appropriate for Paladins with current rules?

14: Something needs to be done to make it so cc characters don’t just get sniped the moment after they make a charge.

This is not a GK-specific problem, it’s a core rulebook problem that needs solving at a higher level than a Codex!

Drop the points of the squad heavy weapons, and make them assault. Drop the points on most units by 2 and terminators by 7. Then unnerf character smite. Some strategies need to drop in cost.

As for Crowe, why not have it that any weapon that targets him in melee also has AP-.

 bullyboy wrote:
As for Crowe, why not have it that any weapon that targets him in melee also has AP-.

That’s functionally a 2++.

kombatwombat wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
As for Crowe, why not have it that any weapon that targets him in melee also has AP-.

That’s functionally a 2++.

He said in meele.

Yes, it’s functionally a 2++ in melee. Actually it’s better than a 2++, since there are things like Death Hex which would remove a 2++ but not this.

kombatwombat wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
As for Crowe, why not have it that any weapon that targets him in melee also has AP-.

That’s functionally a 2++.

a 2++ for melee strikes me as potentially alright as he's still pretty killable at long range I don't mind 2++ saves that are easily circumventable, in fact it adds some intreasting tactics to the game if a unit is considerable more killable one way then another way

Aside from anything else I think we should avoid 2++ ever happening. A 2++ requires massive volumes of attacks to get anything to go through, and on a single model you simply can’t get that many models within 1” to pile on the attacks.

A 2++ in combat is scarier than a 2++ against shooting IMO because owing to the Character rules a well-positioned Character is immune to ranged attacks. Getting effectively a 1++ against shooting and a 2++ against close combat is a nasty combination.

Crowe is a bit of a tough problem to solve. He should not have a strong AP due to the lore surrounding the sword however maybe enough ap to ignore 5+ armor saves. However he should have a extremely strong defense in melee, this is a man who handicaps himself at every turn in melee fights Daemon Princes to standstill with it.

The best way to represent this would honestly be a 3++ in melee, maybe even make it something else besides an invulnerable so it can't be bypassed by melee mortal wound attacks.

The rest of the issues with Crowe would have to be solved in the complete redesign. such as powers, deepstrike, etc.

 Quickjager wrote:
Crowe is a bit of a tough problem to solve. He should not have a strong AP due to the lore surrounding the sword however maybe enough ap to ignore 5+ armor saves. However he should have a extremely strong defense in melee, this is a man who handicaps himself at every turn in melee fights Daemon Princes to standstill with it.

The best way to represent this would honestly be a 3++ in melee, maybe even make it something else besides an invulnerable so it can't be bypassed by melee mortal wound attacks.

The rest of the issues with Crowe would have to be solved in the complete redesign. such as powers, deepstrike, etc.

the real issues with everything GKs requires a complete redesign IMHO

kombatwombat wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

11: paladins get 4 attacks, 4+ invuln, never lose people to morale, 2 spells and can intercept wounds for characters, and become ws and bs 2+.

There is a story about how a Roman general on victory parades would have a servant detailed to stand behind him and whisper in his ear ‘remember, you are but a man.’

Allow me to be that servant: remember, you are but a Space Marine. Not a Custodian, merely a psychic Space Marine Veteran specially trained for Daemon-hunting and bearing the finest equipment a Space Marine could hope to. Paladins’ rules are bang on where they should be - the leading edge of (loyalist) Terminator statlines with nasty weapons and psychic powers.

Their only issue is points cost. Their rules are similar to a Custodian Guard with a Spear, trading 1 point of each WS, BS, S and T for native Deep Strike and being a psyker. Now that’s an unfair trade in the Custodian’s favour, so if a Custodian with a Spear is 52 points, maybe 48 points would be appropriate for Paladins with current rules?

14: Something needs to be done to make it so cc characters don’t just get sniped the moment after they make a charge.

This is not a GK-specific problem, it’s a core rulebook problem that needs solving at a higher level than a Codex!

But what if I said custodians are overpriced?

Are they though? Even basic Custodes seem to do a lot of work. I haven’t yet seen people dismissing them as overpriced, unless you’ve got some evidence/analysis backing up why Custodes are overpriced?

 ProwlerPC wrote:
2++ armour saves will encourage the smite spam as there is no other alternative. If there's anything in Imperial soup that allows rerolls of saves even just on a 1 then a broken problem is created.

You mean apart from simply shooting them. 2++ has never been problem. It was 2++ with reroll or combined with invisibility.

Hell just swamp them with AP0 guns then. That's how you terminators have classically be killed anyway.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

True Name. 1cp. Designate a daemon model in your opponent's army. All your units reroll hits and wounds against this target, and this target must subtract 1 from hit rolls and wound rolls when attacking Grey Knights units.

No, just no.

6. Drop purge soul. Replace it with psychic backlash. When a unit casts a power within 18" of the Grey Knight unit and fails or is denied, the caster takes D3 mortal wounds. The unit receiving this buff has +2 to deny the witch rolls.

Why exactly is this a GK Thing?

I like the "True Name" stratagem. It fit the fluff and fun and sonehow swings balance between the nemisis of GK and Daemon by certain degree. As for now even a strong GK list is actually no match against a properly prepared Daemon and the fight between these two armies is pretty one sided for the Daemon most of the time.

However, This Stratagem need to cost correctly to be balance, and add some more fluffy effect to bring more fun. I propose it to change it as follows:

True Name: 2CP / 4CP
Once per game only, Designate one Daemon Character in your opponent's army right after the model is deployed on the battle field during deployment stage or arrived on the battle field from reserve during any battle phases. All GK units in your army gain +1 to hit against this target, and this target subtract 1 from psychic test (if it is a psyker), hit rolls when attacking Grey Knights units, as well as its inv save against the close combat attacks from GK infantry or Monster. This effect last for the whole game.
Do note, if only 2CP is paid for this Stratagem, the control player of that Daemon Character immediately roll a dice, on a 5 or 6, the above effect of this stratagem is nullified. If 4 CP is paid, the control player of the target must roll 2D6, and the effect is only nullified on a double 6. Moreover, if the effect written above is nullified, the Daemon Character further gains below: +1S, T, W, A and its inv save (to a maximum of 3+) as well as psychic test (if it is a psyker). While all your units must subtract 1 from all hit rolls against the targetted Daemon Character.

Explanation of my proposal

Let me make a few explanation here. In fluff, the guy who knows the "True Name" has the power to dominate the targetted warp abonimation. The huge debuff of this Stratagem on the Daemon character and the buff on GK when attacking it, is aimed to reflect the Daemon monster got paralysed and dominated by the Daemon hunter when he said "You abomination have no power over me, I know YOUR NAME" and shout out its true name. The high CP cost and "once per game only" reflects the great effort GK conducted to interpretate tremendous amount of contradicted the warp message and turbulent to work out even just one True Name as well as the hundreds of years it takes.

However, also in fluff, interpretate the warp is dangerous and the chaos is always changing and illusive misleading. Getting the True Name of a Daemon wrong is likely to backfire at the critical moment when fighting them. The "reverse effect" of this stratagem reflects the moment when something of the True Name goes wrong, the Daemon monster just lol "Blahahahaha, you spell my name wrong, Mortals!!" and goes super strong / confident in the fight. The 4CP represents the GK has really well prepared to fight this Daemon monster, its True Name is based on the extremely comprehensively carefully analysis of the warp message over a very very long time, so it has really small chance to go wrong. While the 2CP indicates that due to the constraint of certain factors (such as time or limited knowledge about this abomination, etc.), or the carelessness of the Daemon Hunters, the interpretation of the True Name is not as comprehensive as the GK psykers thought, so it has a much larger chance to go wrong (1/3 of the chance, if Daemon player burn a CP to reroll, ~ 1/2 chance).

On the tabletop, the GK player would need to think very carefully when using this stratagem. It would be powerful if goes off. But, in addition to the risk of getting "denied and backfired", it WILL consum the limited CP, which GK generally not gonna have many due to their "elite nature".

What do you guys think? Is it good? too good? too bad? Interesting? unfun?

Does no one read the rules? True name already exists. It's the whole thing that is the Daemon Hunters rule. All of the living GK models including Dreadnaughts (except servitors) have this rule. Why are people jumping through hoops to make a strategy that already exists as a rule.\?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Does no one read the rules? True name already exists. It's the whole thing that is the Daemon Hunters rule. All of the living GK models including Dreadnaughts (except servitors) have this rule. Why are people jumping through hoops to make a strategy that already exists as a rule.\?

There is no rule name: "True Name" in the codex , and no rules to reflect that a strike force of GK (and / or Ordo Malleus) doing huge amount of research to prepare the combat against one certain powerful harmful Daemon. I think the Daemon Hunter rule just reflects the fluff that the GK are trained and experienced in fighting the warp entities. I've notice it, so my proposal is mainly a debuff against the target, and "only" gives +1 to hit against the Daemon for the GK models. I hope this represent the Daemon being weakened and paralysed in fluff. And on the tabletop, it cancels out the -1 penalty of the Daemon Hammers carried by GK, which is the few reliable weapons to wound Daemon monsters (T6/T7) in the game.